Topics

[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Alan,

I thought SAE 90 was gear oil,(for the C drive) not transmission fluid.(for the gear box) 

Regards

Danny

On 23 August 2018 at 08:33 "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Pat,


ATF 90 - Automatic Transmission Fluid SAE 90

You can rinse the membranes with fresh water with the pressure knob fully anti clockwise i.e. no pressure.
If you pressurise the membranes with fresh water you will ruin them - if they are not already ruined from sitting pickled for that length of time.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


 


 


eric freedman
 


Alan Leslie
 

If its a Hurth or ZF its ATF-90.
All those brands listed are just that, brands.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


eric freedman
 


Alan Leslie
 

Thanks Eric,
apologies if i have misled people.
You are quite right.
After some research I discover there are a lot of ATF variants that are specified for different applications.
Advice : don't listen to me, read the manual !!
I should take my own advice !!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
 


Patrick McAneny
 

Alan, This is why I asked the question, I could not remember what I used the last time . Then when I went into the auto store I was surprised by how many different fluids there was to chose from. There must have been ten at least.
Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 3:02 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
Thanks Eric,
apologies if i have misled people.
You are quite right.
After some research I discover there are a lot of ATF variants that are specified for different applications.
Advice : don't listen to me, read the manual !!
I should take my own advice !!

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
 


Patrick McAneny
 

Craig , I will watch the video, I would really like to run it now before I leave, so that I can replace/repair here before departure. The membranes have only been used for six months , then pickled for 31/2 years . I don't know what that does to them , it seems if you ran them for awhile they would clean themselves ,who knows ,I don't. So you are saying as long as I don't turn the pressure up beyond the green zone , it would be OK .See ya in ST. Michaels.
Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 

Hi Pat,

You definitely can run your watermaker in fresh water without ruining the membrane(s). The only caveat is that you must not exceed your fresh water output rating.  

Start your unit up with, as Alan says, the pressure knob fully closed (which you normally do). Then bring the pressure up slowly and monitor the fresh water output flow. In sea water, where you might need 800 psi to get your rated output (mine is 20 gph), in brackish it's maybe 400 or so and only 200ish in fresh water.

For a good video on this by Rich Boren, who owns the CruiseRO company, check out http://blog.cruiserowaterandpower.com/can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water/
If the link on the last line gets garbled by yahoo, it is http colon slash slash blog dot cruiserowaterandpower dot com slash can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water slash

I used to do this all the time on Sangaris, so I know it works.

Cheers, Craig SN68

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Alan, I am concerned about that , leaving them pickled so long and they were new four years ago. So it sounds like there is no way to fully test the system until I get to salt water. If I could find a way to make up some salt water and recirculate it ,that would work. I would like to put it through a stress test prior to heading for the Caribbean.
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2018 4:33 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
Hi Pat,

ATF 90 - Automatic Transmission Fluid SAE 90

You can rinse the membranes with fresh water with the pressure knob fully anti clockwise i.e. no pressure.
If you pressurise the membranes with fresh water you will ruin them - if they are not already ruined from sitting pickled for that length of time.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


Craig Briggs
 

Pat, 
I see that Yahoo did garble that link, so just search it directly. And, yes, keep the fresh water flow normal and you should be ok. I think the issue with long term pickling may be damage to the membrane rather than just needing a "cleaning", but you should be able to tell - if your TDS is low after firing it up you may have dodged the bullet.
Cheers, Craig


---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Craig , I will watch the video, I would really like to run it now before I leave, so that I can replace/repair here before departure. The membranes have only been used for six months , then pickled for 31/2 years . I don't know what that does to them , it seems if you ran them for awhile they would clean themselves ,who knows ,I don't. So you are saying as long as I don't turn the pressure up beyond the green zone , it would be OK .See ya in ST. Michaels.
Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 

Hi Pat,

You definitely can run your watermaker in fresh water without ruining the membrane(s). The only caveat is that you must not exceed your fresh water output rating.  

Start your unit up with, as Alan says, the pressure knob fully closed (which you normally do). Then bring the pressure up slowly and monitor the fresh water output flow. In sea water, where you might need 800 psi to get your rated output (mine is 20 gph), in brackish it's maybe 400 or so and only 200ish in fresh water.

For a good video on this by Rich Boren, who owns the CruiseRO company, check out http://blog.cruiserowaterandpower.com/can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water/
If the link on the last line gets garbled by yahoo, it is http colon slash slash blog dot cruiserowaterandpower dot com slash can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water slash

I used to do this all the time on Sangaris, so I know it works.

Cheers, Craig SN68

---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Alan, I am concerned about that , leaving them pickled so long and they were new four years ago. So it sounds like there is no way to fully test the system until I get to salt water. If I could find a way to make up some salt water and recirculate it ,that would work. I would like to put it through a stress test prior to heading for the Caribbean.
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2018 4:33 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
Hi Pat,

ATF 90 - Automatic Transmission Fluid SAE 90

You can rinse the membranes with fresh water with the pressure knob fully anti clockwise i.e. no pressure.
If you pressurise the membranes with fresh water you will ruin them - if they are not already ruined from sitting pickled for that length of time.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


greatketch@...
 

If the membrane is pickled with sodium metabisufite (also called sodium pyrosufite) the issue with long term storage (beyond about 1 year) is not damage to the membranes from the pickling solution, but rather that the pickling solution losses its biostatic properties and the membranes foul from biological growth.  

When dissolved in water sodium metabisufite gradually hydrolyses to release sulfur dioxide leaving a solution of sodium sulfite. Sulfur dioxide is a strong reducing agent, and a very effective microbiocide.  Once all of the sodium metabisulfite hydrolyses, and the resulting sulfur dioxide reacts and dissipates, there is nothing left to protect the membranes from biological growth.  The usual recommendation is that the membranes should be re-pickled after a year to keep them safe.  I would guess that timeframe is actually highly variable depending on initial water quality, pH, bioburden, temperature, and other variables.

This is the same reason that membranes sold "wet" have a relatively short shelf life.  It is not the membranes that "go bad" rather it is the pickling solution.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Craig Briggs
 

Bill,
Thanks for the explanation - makes sense. Given the membrane is fouled, I would guess the danger may be that, even though you might be able to run the system and produce fresh water, that will be contaminated no matter how long you run it.  Sound right? Wonder if fresh pickling would destroy the old fouling. (Or maybe just bite the bullet and buy new membranes to stay on the safe side.)
Craig SN68


---In amelyachtowners@..., <greatketch@...> wrote :

If the membrane is pickled with sodium metabisufite (also called sodium pyrosufite) the issue with long term storage (beyond about 1 year) is not damage to the membranes from the pickling solution, but rather that the pickling solution losses its biostatic properties and the membranes foul from biological growth.  

When dissolved in water sodium metabisufite gradually hydrolyses to release sulfur dioxide leaving a solution of sodium sulfite. Sulfur dioxide is a strong reducing agent, and a very effective microbiocide.  Once all of the sodium metabisulfite hydrolyses, and the resulting sulfur dioxide reacts and dissipates, there is nothing left to protect the membranes from biological growth.  The usual recommendation is that the membranes should be re-pickled after a year to keep them safe.  I would guess that timeframe is actually highly variable depending on initial water quality, pH, bioburden, temperature, and other variables.

This is the same reason that membranes sold "wet" have a relatively short shelf life.  It is not the membranes that "go bad" rather it is the pickling solution.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Patrick McAneny
 

Bill, Thanks for the explanation. If you re pickled after three years and then ran it for a long time to flush it out ,would that get you back to a good set of membranes? Hate to buy new ones ,these were new less than four years ago.
Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: greatketch@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 10:32 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
If the membrane is pickled with sodium metabisufite (also called sodium pyrosufite) the issue with long term storage (beyond about 1 year) is not damage to the membranes from the pickling solution, but rather that the pickling solution losses its biostatic properties and the membranes foul from biological growth.  

When dissolved in water sodium metabisufite gradually hydrolyses to release sulfur dioxide leaving a solution of sodium sulfite. Sulfur dioxide is a strong reducing agent, and a very effective microbiocide.  Once all of the sodium metabisulfite hydrolyses, and the resulting sulfur dioxide reacts and dissipates, there is nothing left to protect the membranes from biological growth.  The usual recommendation is that the membranes should be re-pickled after a year to keep them safe.  I would guess that timeframe is actually highly variable depending on initial water quality, pH, bioburden, temperature, and other variables.

This is the same reason that membranes sold "wet" have a relatively short shelf life.  It is not the membranes that "go bad" rather it is the pickling solution.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Mark Isaac
 

Hi Eric,

Would you mind posting the updated list of approved fluids from ZF?  I looked long and hard for Dex II and could not find it.

Mark Isaac
SM391, Lulu
South Freeport, Maine


 

Mark,

Eric is using an abbreviation. It is DEXRON II ATF. However, you cannot find DEXRON II because it is no longer made. Dexron VI replaced Dexron II and III.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Any opinions and conclusions expressed in this message are solely those of the author and should not be construed as representing the opinion of an expert. Manufacturers' and Expert's precautions must be considered when dealing with mechanical and/or electrical systems to ensure that you are NOT harmed, and/or the device and/or system is NOT ruined. If in doubt, do not touch any mechanical and/or electrical device or system referred to above.


On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 10:25 AM isaac_02906@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Eric,

Would you mind posting the updated list of approved fluids from ZF?  I looked long and hard for Dex II and could not find it.

Mark Isaac
SM391, Lulu
South Freeport, Maine


eric freedman
 


karkauai
 

I don’t think it’s the pressure you need to watch, Pat.  It’s the RO water flow.  Does yours have the glass tube with float that indicates how much water you are making?  Keep that below the rated volume your unit produces.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Aug 23, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Craig , I will watch the video, I would really like to run it now before I leave, so that I can replace/repair here before departure. The membranes have only been used for six months , then pickled for 31/2 years . I don't know what that does to them , it seems if you ran them for awhile they would clean themselves ,who knows ,I don't. So you are saying as long as I don't turn the pressure up beyond the green zone , it would be OK .See ya in ST. Michaels.

Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 

Hi Pat,

You definitely can run your watermaker in fresh water without ruining the membrane(s). The only caveat is that you must not exceed your fresh water output rating.  

Start your unit up with, as Alan says, the pressure knob fully closed (which you normally do). Then bring the pressure up slowly and monitor the fresh water output flow. In sea water, where you might need 800 psi to get your rated output (mine is 20 gph), in brackish it's maybe 400 or so and only 200ish in fresh water.

For a good video on this by Rich Boren, who owns the CruiseRO company, check out http://blog.cruiserowaterandpower.com/can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water/
If the link on the last line gets garbled by yahoo, it is http colon slash slash blog dot cruiserowaterandpower dot com slash can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water slash

I used to do this all the time on Sangaris, so I know it works.

Cheers, Craig SN68

---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote :

Alan, I am concerned about that , leaving them pickled so long and they were new four years ago. So it sounds like there is no way to fully test the system until I get to salt water. If I could find a way to make up some salt water and recirculate it ,that would work. I would like to put it through a stress test prior to heading for the Caribbean.
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2018 4:33 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
Hi Pat,

ATF 90 - Automatic Transmission Fluid SAE 90

You can rinse the membranes with fresh water with the pressure knob fully anti clockwise i.e. no pressure.
If you pressurise the membranes with fresh water you will ruin them - if they are not already ruined from sitting pickled for that length of time.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


Alan Leslie
 

I'm now not so sure about this fresh water business.


In the Dessalator Duo 60 manual  it says:

Remember: The biggest enemy of the membranes is fresh water.

Fresh water should be always used with no pressure when going through the system
(pressure dial turned all the way anti clockwise) and the system should always run with no
pressure after a fresh water flush to dump all the fresh water that are in it, before making
freshwater from sea water (also with the pressure dial all the way anti clockwise).
When running the watermaker with the dial all the way anti clockwise, it will shut it self
down automatically after 1 minute. Only then, the watermaker is ready for use.


I have the Filmtec Membrane Technical Manual and I can find no discussion of this at all anywhere.

In fact a number of systems are illustrated that
1. Treat Brackish water
2. RO the RO water (double RO) to make ultrapure water.

So I don;t know where this freshwater enemy story comes from......nothing on a Google search.

If it really was a problem I would think Filmtec would warn about it.

Alan
Elyse SM437



greatketch@...
 

RO membranes are rated for maximum pressure OR maximum flux of product water, whichever is reached first.

If the feed water is nearly fresh, very low feed pressure (maybe lower than 100 PSI, 7 Bar) will result in maximum flow of product water.  Running like this will not damage the membranes.  The "reject rate" of salt removal will be similar, so you will end up with quite pure water.

In the Chesapeake Bay, you will very quickly clog your prefilters, so be ready for that.  It is a rich biological soup.  If your membranes have been pickled for over 3 years, I would recommend cleaning them before pressurizing to remove as much accumulated biofouling as possible so you do not push it deep into the membrane pores.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Alan

I know from my former Boat's Watermaker. After using a while it helped the performance a lot by cleaning from time to time with extra cleaning cartridges. 

What I know; Freshwater under pressure destroys the membranes as well as fresh water with chlorine inside. In some marinas you only get this. Thats why I always use carbon filter to fill up tank with drinking water. I'm not filling non drinking-water or somehow contaminated I'm not knowing.

You need freshwater after using to rinse/flush the salt-water out. Reason is that sea water is fouling much faster than fresh water because there is much more organic stuff in it. When you use the Membranes daily there would be no real need for flushing all time, because time until re-use will not allow for much growth inside. 

Btw: You can manually flush the system as long as you like by turning the 3way valve in the engine room to fresh water supply.

Cheers
Ruedi 
WASABI
A-54, #55


On 24 Aug 2018, at 02:59, divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I'm now not so sure about this fresh water business.


In the Dessalator Duo 60 manual  it says:

Remember: The biggest enemy of the membranes is fresh water.

Fresh water should be always used with no pressure when going through the system
(pressure dial turned all the way anti clockwise) and the system should always run with no
pressure after a fresh water flush to dump all the fresh water that are in it, before making
freshwater from sea water (also with the pressure dial all the way anti clockwise).
When running the watermaker with the dial all the way anti clockwise, it will shut it self
down automatically after 1 minute. Only then, the watermaker is ready for use.


I have the Filmtec Membrane Technical Manual and I can find no discussion of this at all anywhere.

In fact a number of systems are illustrated that
1. Treat Brackish water
2. RO the RO water (double RO) to make ultrapure water.

So I don;t know where this freshwater enemy story comes from......nothing on a Google search.

If it really was a problem I would think Filmtec would warn about it.

Alan
Elyse SM437



Craig Briggs
 

Yes, Kent, that's what was pointed out - OK in fresh water if you don't exceed rated fresh water flow, not that you need to watch the high pressure.  Just that it will be much lower than with salt water.

That being said, as Bill pointed out, there may still be an issue with bacteria from depleted pickling chems.
Cheers


---In amelyachtowners@..., <karkauai@...> wrote :

I don’t think it’s the pressure you need to watch, Pat.  It’s the RO water flow.  Does yours have the glass tube with float that indicates how much water you are making?  Keep that below the rated volume your unit produces.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Aug 23, 2018, at 8:07 AM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Craig , I will watch the video, I would really like to run it now before I leave, so that I can replace/repair here before departure. The membranes have only been used for six months , then pickled for 31/2 years . I don't know what that does to them , it seems if you ran them for awhile they would clean themselves ,who knows ,I don't. So you are saying as long as I don't turn the pressure up beyond the green zone , it would be OK .See ya in ST. Michaels.

Thanks,
Pat
SM123


-----Original Message-----
From: sangaris@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2018 7:52 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 

Hi Pat,

You definitely can run your watermaker in fresh water without ruining the membrane(s). The only caveat is that you must not exceed your fresh water output rating.  

Start your unit up with, as Alan says, the pressure knob fully closed (which you normally do). Then bring the pressure up slowly and monitor the fresh water output flow. In sea water, where you might need 800 psi to get your rated output (mine is 20 gph), in brackish it's maybe 400 or so and only 200ish in fresh water.

For a good video on this by Rich Boren, who owns the CruiseRO company, check out http://blog.cruiserowaterandpower.com/can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water/
If the link on the last line gets garbled by yahoo, it is http colon slash slash blog dot cruiserowaterandpower dot com slash can-i-run-a-marine-water-maker-in-fresh-or-brackish-water slash

I used to do this all the time on Sangaris, so I know it works.

Cheers, Craig SN68

---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailw32@...> wrote :

Alan, I am concerned about that , leaving them pickled so long and they were new four years ago. So it sounds like there is no way to fully test the system until I get to salt water. If I could find a way to make up some salt water and recirculate it ,that would work. I would like to put it through a stress test prior to heading for the Caribbean.
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: divanz620@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2018 4:33 pm
Subject: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Watermaker and transmission fluid

 
Hi Pat,

ATF 90 - Automatic Transmission Fluid SAE 90

You can rinse the membranes with fresh water with the pressure knob fully anti clockwise i.e. no pressure.
If you pressurise the membranes with fresh water you will ruin them - if they are not already ruined from sitting pickled for that length of time.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

 


Craig Briggs
 

Alan,

You should be able to find CruiseRO Water and Power on the internet.  Try this link.
He very effectively clears up the no-fresh-water myth and also gives the technical explanation of how fresh water at high pressure will destroy a membrane.

The Filmtec notes you quote are pretty clear that fresh (or brackish) water is no problem.

The Dessalator warning is clearly one of those cover-your-ass disclaimers to prevent customer complaints and claims like the one discussed here recently from Alden Barbour warning against using tank water to cool the refrigerant. That was because of the remote possibility the line might rupture in the tank and contaminate the drinking water and kill you when you drink it, or the user might let the tank water run low and have inadequate cooling and complain on some cruisers' forum and give Alden Barbour a bad name.

Sure, you can, indeed, blow out your RO membrane if you run it with fresh feed water at high pressure. 
Uh, don't do that.

Cheers,
Craig SN68


---In amelyachtowners@..., <divanz620@...> wrote :

I'm now not so sure about this fresh water business.


In the Dessalator Duo 60 manual  it says:

Remember: The biggest enemy of the membranes is fresh water.

Fresh water should be always used with no pressure when going through the system
(pressure dial turned all the way anti clockwise) and the system should always run with no
pressure after a fresh water flush to dump all the fresh water that are in it, before making
freshwater from sea water (also with the pressure dial all the way anti clockwise).
When running the watermaker with the dial all the way anti clockwise, it will shut it self
down automatically after 1 minute. Only then, the watermaker is ready for use.


I have the Filmtec Membrane Technical Manual and I can find no discussion of this at all anywhere.

In fact a number of systems are illustrated that
1. Treat Brackish water
2. RO the RO water (double RO) to make ultrapure water.

So I don;t know where this freshwater enemy story comes from......nothing on a Google search.

If it really was a problem I would think Filmtec would warn about it.

Alan
Elyse SM437