[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT


Porter McRoberts
 

Dean thank you


The turbo does spin up. More with load of course. I am able to measure pressure. 


1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet

1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration

2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet

2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet



Volvo has yet to respond. 


Porter. 

A54-152




Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 3:16 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean


Courtney Gorman
 

Sounds to me that you should just go fast!  LOL 
Sorry for your continued difficulties, just keep enjoying paradise and smile, it makes everything better!  Cheers
Courtney
s/v Trippin'
54 #101 Grenada


-----Original Message-----
From: Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2018 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

 
Dean thank you


The turbo does spin up. More with load of course. I am able to measure pressure. 


1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet
1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration
2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet
2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet


Volvo has yet to respond. 

Porter. 
A54-152



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 3:16 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Porter,
This may be nothing, but for completeness I’ll mention it.

You seem to be hitting near max boost rather early, with pressure of 120kPa at 2200 rpm.
On my test with Autoprop, I was between 90/100KPa at 2200 and didn’t hit 120kPa until 2500rpm.
Your test was with fixed prop, and I would expect my pressure would be even lower with a fixed prop.

That’s a significant difference in my book, particularly with a software controlled engine.

For your reference, my no-load (neutral) turbo pressure numbers right now are as follows.

RPM. kPa

1400 0
1600 10
1800 10
2000 10
2200 20
2400 30
2600 30
2800 40
3000 40
3200 50 (WOT)

Can’t have too much data!

Cheers
Dean


Porter McRoberts
 

Thanks Courtney 
Maybe that’s the way to go!!

We’re getting a top lesson in patience, and despite this situation enjoying the hell out of ourselves. Whales galore, beautiful islands, dolphins on the bow for hours at a time. Girls getting back into school. Awesome and incredibly understanding and supportive wife and family, cool and helpful folks at our “local marina” ha!  Now I really have to learn the white floppy things above us!   And this is an amazing boat.  The plan was to reject the usual and let the world mold us into something new, tighter, more appreciative, patient, sentient and kind. It’s happening. The trip is on the inside. 

We’ll get there! Whenever there is ready for us. 

That’s our mantra this am!

Porter and Crew
S/V IBIS 54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama







Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 1, 2018, at 5:02 AM, Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Sounds to me that you should just go fast!  LOL 

Sorry for your continued difficulties, just keep enjoying paradise and smile, it makes everything better!  Cheers
Courtney
s/v Trippin'
54 #101 Grenada


-----Original Message-----
From: Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2018 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

 
Dean thank you


The turbo does spin up. More with load of course. I am able to measure pressure. 


1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet
1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration
2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet
2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet


Volvo has yet to respond. 

Porter. 
A54-152



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 3:16 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

 
Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean


Dean Gillies
 

Porter,
Further to my last ...

Here’s a scenario...

Let’s assume your boost sensor is reading higher than it should (faulty sensor) or the pressure IS higher than it should be (faulty Turbo?).
Let’s also guess that the software which reads this pressure signal reacts by limiting the rpm from going any higher when some max pressure value is reached, say 120/130kPa. (Seems like a reasonable reaction),

This scenario would produce the symptom you are seeing.

In the no-load situation, the boost pressure does not get high enough to limit the rpm, and it just tops out at 3200 as usual.
In the load situation the pressure (or pressure perceived by the sensor) reaches a maximum limit and the software prevents rpm from going any higher.

This could also explain the Autoprop effect you saw. The AP may have loaded the engine erratically, such that max boost was reached in an instantaneous way because of the erratic load and the software immediately tried to reduce rpm. The smoother load curve of the fixed prop would probably not affect the engine so dramatically.

Guesswork in the dark.

Cheers
Dean


Porter McRoberts
 

Thank you Dean. 
This will help. I’ll run it out of gear and see what comparisons I get. I think the devil is in the load algorithm though. And to respect the little bugger we might have to sacrifice the whole. I hope not!!!!


Porter A54-152. 

I’ll run the test. Thanks again!!



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 1, 2018, at 8:37 AM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,
This may be nothing, but for completeness I’ll mention it.

You seem to be hitting near max boost rather early, with pressure of 120kPa at 2200 rpm.
On my test with Autoprop, I was between 90/100KPa at 2200 and didn’t hit 120kPa until 2500rpm.
Your test was with fixed prop, and I would expect my pressure would be even lower with a fixed prop.

That’s a significant difference in my book, particularly with a software controlled engine.

For your reference, my no-load (neutral) turbo pressure numbers right now are as follows.

RPM. kPa

1400 0
1600 10
1800 10
2000 10
2200 20
2400 30
2600 30
2800 40
3000 40
3200 50 (WOT)

Can’t have too much data!

Cheers
Dean


Porter McRoberts
 

Nick. Thanks again. I agree!!  
This is long block #3 for this 1800hr D3
Bill Rouse and I think the devil is in the other parts. The “short block” timing system or electronics. 

Yesterday I compared WOT out of gear: 3200 rpm with no prop but in gear WOT: 3190rpm

 I think this test exonerates all but the engine itself. The only outlier could be the boat itself. But we have a clean hull. Not a barnacle or a growth. So weight??? We’re pretty full. 500 l of fuel but a full load with spares and  scuba tanks an air compressor etc. I think I may do a full water tank test run vs empty water tank test run. See what a 2000 lb difference makes. 

The other issue is Volvo. They’ve gone to ground. I think they are at a loss as well. But zero comms yesterday. It’s the weekend now. I’ll be curious what happens Monday. If anything. 

Thanks again

Porter
A54-152



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 1, 2018, at 8:37 AM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Porter,
This may be nothing, but for completeness I’ll mention it.

You seem to be hitting near max boost rather early, with pressure of 120kPa at 2200 rpm.
On my test with Autoprop, I was between 90/100KPa at 2200 and didn’t hit 120kPa until 2500rpm.
Your test was with fixed prop, and I would expect my pressure would be even lower with a fixed prop.

That’s a significant difference in my book, particularly with a software controlled engine.

For your reference, my no-load (neutral) turbo pressure numbers right now are as follows.

RPM. kPa

1400 0
1600 10
1800 10
2000 10
2200 20
2400 30
2600 30
2800 40
3000 40
3200 50 (WOT)

Can’t have too much data!

Cheers
Dean


Porter McRoberts
 

Dean, you and Bill have both come to very similar conclusions and I think they are by far the best fit to explain the circumstances. 
Some “soundthinking” indeed. And very appreciated. 

The other issue I am dealing with is interacting with self described technicians not mechanics. People who look at screens not think about systems.   Nothing against nurses but why I think we still need doctors (when they are doing their jobs well!). 

I appreciate your thinking very much. 

Porter
A54-152


Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 1, 2018, at 9:16 AM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Porter,
Further to my last ...

Here’s a scenario...

Let’s assume your boost sensor is reading higher than it should (faulty sensor) or the pressure IS higher than it should be (faulty Turbo?).
Let’s also guess that the software which reads this pressure signal reacts by limiting the rpm from going any higher when some max pressure value is reached, say 120/130kPa. (Seems like a reasonable reaction),

This scenario would produce the symptom you are seeing.

In the no-load situation, the boost pressure does not get high enough to limit the rpm, and it just tops out at 3200 as usual.
In the load situation the pressure (or pressure perceived by the sensor) reaches a maximum limit and the software prevents rpm from going any higher.

This could also explain the Autoprop effect you saw. The AP may have loaded the engine erratically, such that max boost was reached in an instantaneous way because of the erratic load and the software immediately tried to reduce rpm. The smoother load curve of the fixed prop would probably not affect the engine so dramatically.

Guesswork in the dark.

Cheers
Dean


Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Gang
Very interesting and great thinking scenarios Dean made. Definitively worth to check!

Just for curiosity and for completion if someone is interested. I made same RPM test with and without load today. Test with AUTOPROP, Calm sea, little wind, no current. 
Interestingly my "no-load" turbo pressure number are lower than those reported from Dean (ink. 2 with 0 kPa on 1600/1800). I’m not an Engine-Engineer, so I can’t interpret the difference. 

For your reference, load test with AUTOPROP , RPM, temp. turbo pressure numbers :

RPM.  Temp  kPa
1400 78 10
1500 79 10
1600 79 20
1800 79 40
2000 79 60
2200 80 90
2400 80 110
2600 81 110
2800 82 120

My no-load (neutral) numbers are as follows:

RPM. temp kPa
1400 76 10
1500 76 10
1600 77 0
1800 77 0
2000 77 10
2200 77 10
2400 77 20
2600 78 20
2800 78 30
3000 78 30
3200 78 30 (WOT)

Best 
Ruedi 
SY-WASABI 
A-54.#55

Von: <amelyachtowners@...> on behalf of "trifin@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...>
Antworten an: <amelyachtowners@...>
Datum: Samstag, 1. September 2018 um 17:16
An: <amelyachtowners@...>
Betreff: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

 

Porter,
Further to my last ...

Here’s a scenario...

Let’s assume your boost sensor is reading higher than it should (faulty sensor) or the pressure IS higher than it should be (faulty Turbo?).
Let’s also guess that the software which reads this pressure signal reacts by limiting the rpm from going any higher when some max pressure value is reached, say 120/130kPa. (Seems like a reasonable reaction),

This scenario would produce the symptom you are seeing.

In the no-load situation, the boost pressure does not get high enough to limit the rpm, and it just tops out at 3200 as usual.
In the load situation the pressure (or pressure perceived by the sensor) reaches a maximum limit and the software prevents rpm from going any higher.

This could also explain the Autoprop effect you saw. The AP may have loaded the engine erratically, such that max boost was reached in an instantaneous way because of the erratic load and the software immediately tried to reduce rpm. The smoother load curve of the fixed prop would probably not affect the engine so dramatically.

Guesswork in the dark.

Cheers
Dean


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Ruedi,
You’re right about the no load numbers, and interestingly your ‘load’ pressures are around 5-10kPa lower than mine across the board.
Importantly though, we are both significantly below Porter’s pressure numbers at any given RPM.
This is all good data for Porter in his discussion with Volvo.

See you in a few days. We will be staying in the Dioni Boutique Hotel in Preveza on Mon/Tues nights, so easy catch up in town when you arrive.

Cheers
Dean


Courtney Gorman
 

Cheers Porter
Sounds like you are all in the right state..........of mind!!
Courtney
svTrippin



-----Original Message-----
From: Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2018 10:16 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

 
Thanks Courtney 
Maybe that’s the way to go!!

We’re getting a top lesson in patience, and despite this situation enjoying the hell out of ourselves. Whales galore, beautiful islands, dolphins on the bow for hours at a time. Girls getting back into school. Awesome and incredibly understanding and supportive wife and family, cool and helpful folks at our “local marina” ha!  Now I really have to learn the white floppy things above us!   And this is an amazing boat.  The plan was to reject the usual and let the world mold us into something new, tighter, more appreciative, patient, sentient and kind. It’s happening. The trip is on the inside. 

We’ll get there! Whenever there is ready for us. 

That’s our mantra this am!

Porter and Crew
S/V IBIS 54-152
Isla Contadora, Panama







Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Sep 1, 2018, at 5:02 AM, Courtney Gorman Itsfun1@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Sounds to me that you should just go fast!  LOL 
Sorry for your continued difficulties, just keep enjoying paradise and smile, it makes everything better!  Cheers
Courtney
s/v Trippin'
54 #101 Grenada


-----Original Message-----
From: Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2018 4:51 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Expected RPM at WOT

 
Dean thank you


The turbo does spin up. More with load of course. I am able to measure pressure. 


1000 rpm temp 78c and 0 kPa quiet
1500 rpm temp 79c and 20 kPa high pitched whir sound bit no vibration
2000 rpm temp 81c and 70 kPa quiet
2200 rpm WOT 84c and 110/120 kPa quiet


Volvo has yet to respond. 

Porter. 
A54-152



Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 31, 2018, at 3:16 PM, trifin@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups...com> wrote:

 
Hi Porter,
No question remains in my mind that this is a problem for Volvo.

Re Nick’s observation, does the turbo spin up?
I wonder if the turbo is load controlled or just rpm controlled.
If it operates in concert with load being applied, maybe the fault is still associated with the boost sensor.

I’ll check mine in the morning for comparison.

Cheers
Dean