[Amel Yacht Owners] Shock from windlass


Stephen Davis
 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


karkauai
 

Thanks Steve.  I just ran new wires to the port nav light last year. I’ll look there first.

Thinking out loud here:
So that means there was a fault in the windlass energizing the case (? Dust from the contacts?), and the circuit is completed by the negative wire from the nav light?  Light doesn’t have to be on because switch for the lights is on the (+) wire, (-) is always connected.  If it were the (+) wire from the light, it would only be hot when the switch for the light was on.  Uhhhh, right???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


 

I assume KRISTY is still on the hard.  Maybe you should measure the voltage between the rail and earth, and the windlass case and earth. Let me know...I have several ideas. 

And, the guy must have been touching something other than the switch and the rail because the switch is rubber.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 16:26 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Steve.  I just ran new wires to the port nav light last year. I’ll look there first.


Thinking out loud here:
So that means there was a fault in the windlass energizing the case (? Dust from the contacts?), and the circuit is completed by the negative wire from the nav light?  Light doesn’t have to be on because switch for the lights is on the (+) wire, (-) is always connected.  If it were the (+) wire from the light, it would only be hot when the switch for the light was on.  Uhhhh, right???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups..com> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


karkauai
 

Thanks Bill.  I’ll do that tomorrow and let you know what I find.  By “earth” do you mean battery negative or bonding?  Or both?Voltage or Resistance or both?

I assume he was touching the windlass case.  Seems like a stretch to be pushing the button and rail at the same time???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I assume KRISTY is still on the hard.  Maybe you should measure the voltage between the rail and earth, and the windlass case and earth. Let me know...I have several ideas. 

And, the guy must have been touching something other than the switch and the rail because the switch is rubber.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 16:26 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Steve.  I just ran new wires to the port nav light last year. I’ll look there first.


Thinking out loud here:
So that means there was a fault in the windlass energizing the case (? Dust from the contacts?), and the circuit is completed by the negative wire from the nav light?  Light doesn’t have to be on because switch for the lights is on the (+) wire, (-) is always connected.  If it were the (+) wire from the light, it would only be hot when the switch for the light was on.  Uhhhh, right???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups...com> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


karkauai
 

She’s back in the water.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I assume KRISTY is still on the hard.  Maybe you should measure the voltage between the rail and earth, and the windlass case and earth. Let me know...I have several ideas. 

And, the guy must have been touching something other than the switch and the rail because the switch is rubber.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 16:26 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Steve.  I just ran new wires to the port nav light last year. I’ll look there first.


Thinking out loud here:
So that means there was a fault in the windlass energizing the case (? Dust from the contacts?), and the circuit is completed by the negative wire from the nav light?  Light doesn’t have to be on because switch for the lights is on the (+) wire, (-) is always connected.  If it were the (+) wire from the light, it would only be hot when the switch for the light was on.  Uhhhh, right???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups...com> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


 

Kent,

Earth is Earth and not bonding or Negative pole on a battery or battery bank.

In the US, Earth is the center pole, is the green wire, which terminates on a copper rod driven into the earth. On an untouched original SM, Earth is the center pole, green/yellow wire that is not the green/yellow bonding wire.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 18:28 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill.  I’ll do that tomorrow and let you know what I find.  By “earth” do you mean battery negative or bonding?  Or both?Voltage or Resistance or both?


I assume he was touching the windlass case.  Seems like a stretch to be pushing the button and rail at the same time???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

I assume KRISTY is still on the hard.  Maybe you should measure the voltage between the rail and earth, and the windlass case and earth. Let me know...I have several ideas. 

And, the guy must have been touching something other than the switch and the rail because the switch is rubber.


Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 16:26 Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Steve.  I just ran new wires to the port nav light last year. I’ll look there first.


Thinking out loud here:
So that means there was a fault in the windlass energizing the case (? Dust from the contacts?), and the circuit is completed by the negative wire from the nav light?  Light doesn’t have to be on because switch for the lights is on the (+) wire, (-) is always connected.  If it were the (+) wire from the light, it would only be hot when the switch for the light was on.  Uhhhh, right???

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Davis flyboyscd@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hey Kent,

Had a similar problem on Aloha a few years ago. It was a part of the nav light wire which had brittle insulation and exposed wire was making contact with inside of rail. It would give you a mild DC shock. 

Good luck sorting out the problem. 

Steve 
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Oct 5, 2018, at 09:02, karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@yahoogroups....com> wrote:

 

Hello Amelians,

I just heard from the yard where I am having work done on Kristy.
One of the guys in the yard guy a shock while operating the windlass by the switch on the windlass and at the same time touching the lifeline rail.

They don’t have any clue about the Amel “ floating ground” and want to blame the shock on the floating ground. I assured them that this was highly unlikely, but I am not sure what is going on here.

Both the windlass and lifeline rail are exposed to sea water.
Are the lifeline rails connected to the bonding system? If so, where is the connection?
Is the windlass connected to the bonding system? If so, where?

Does anyone have an idea of how I should go about trouble-shooting this “shocking” problem?

The yard worker was using the button switch that raises the anchor, which is working as it should. The button switch that lowers the chain works only intermittently, and the up and down toggle switch at the helm works correctly. There was no shock when touching the windlass and rail unless the up switch was activated. The windlass did bring the chain up.

This sounds like a potentially dangerous situation, so I am anxious to find the problem and get it repaired.

Thank you for any advice. I will report what I find.

Happy sailing, Fair Winds, and Respect de la Mer.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy


greatketch@...
 

Kent,

When you measure that potential Bill R suggests, be sure you measure it both as AC and DC voltages.  If you find a significant AC voltage between the windlass and earth, I would unplug from shore power right away, confirm that the voltage has gone away, and stay unplugged until the problem is diagnosed and fixed.

If there is any kind of cross connection between an AC "hot" wire and the DC system, or the bonding wires it has the potential to be quite dangerous.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


karkauai
 

You’re talking about the center pole on AC plugs, right?  Nothing AC alive on Kristy when shock occurred.  No shore power connected, although worker might have dragged a 110AC extension aboard.

When you short a 12v battery between pos and neg, you get a huge arc.  Why wouldn’t that shock the crap out of you?  Direct current shock is what we use to shock the heart back into rhythm, gives the patient a big jolt.  

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 5, 2018, at 8:13 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


When you measure that potential Bill R suggests, be sure you measure it both as AC and DC voltages.  If you find a significant AC voltage between the windlass and earth, I would unplug from shore power right away, confirm that the voltage has gone away, and stay unplugged until the problem is diagnosed and fixed.

If there is any kind of cross connection between an AC "hot" wire and the DC system, or the bonding wires it has the potential to be quite dangerous.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


greatketch@...
 

Kent,

If there was no AC shore power connected, then that makes things a lot simpler--and safer.

24 Volts DC will normally not give enough current flow through the human body to notice. With very sweat-wet skin I have felt feel what might best be called a "tingle," not anything I'd call a "jolt" although it can be surprising.  

You can certainly put one hand on each terminal of a 24 Volt battery and not feel a thing, because your body has a far higher resistance than that wrench shorted across those same terminals.

Anything less than 50 Volts is normally considered "safe" for people.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie


 

Kent,

I am not medically trained but I believe that It requires between 200 and 1000s of DC voltage when you do that medical procedure...that's what is happening when "charging." There is a large capacitor charging so that the patient receives a momentary burst.

You need to look for a 110-220VAC source of current.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus
Amel School www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sat, Oct 6, 2018, 15:59 greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Kent,


If there was no AC shore power connected, then that makes things a lot simpler--and safer.

24 Volts DC will normally not give enough current flow through the human body to notice. With very sweat-wet skin I have felt feel what might best be called a "tingle," not anything I'd call a "jolt" although it can be surprising.  

You can certainly put one hand on each terminal of a 24 Volt battery and not feel a thing, because your body has a far higher resistance than that wrench shorted across those same terminals.

Anything less than 50 Volts is normally considered "safe" for people.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie



karkauai
 

Ok, thanks Bill and Bill.  Going to check it out tomorrow.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Oct 6, 2018, at 4:50 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent,


If there was no AC shore power connected, then that makes things a lot simpler--and safer.

24 Volts DC will normally not give enough current flow through the human body to notice. With very sweat-wet skin I have felt feel what might best be called a "tingle," not anything I'd call a "jolt" although it can be surprising.  

You can certainly put one hand on each terminal of a 24 Volt battery and not feel a thing, because your body has a far higher resistance than that wrench shorted across those same terminals.

Anything less than 50 Volts is normally considered "safe" for people.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie


Patrick McAneny
 

Kent, Why don't you check between the windlass and rail with a meter both ways , see if you get a voltage reading. What about running a wire from the neg. and then pos. side in the battery bank to your meter up at the windlass and again using the meter ,see if you have a reading ,also check the railing.
Good Luck,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners]
To: amelyachtowners
Sent: Sat, Oct 6, 2018 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Shock from windlass

 
Ok, thanks Bill and Bill.  Going to check it out tomorrow.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Oct 6, 2018, at 4:50 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent,

If there was no AC shore power connected, then that makes things a lot simpler--and safer.

24 Volts DC will normally not give enough current flow through the human body to notice. With very sweat-wet skin I have felt feel what might best be called a "tingle," not anything I'd call a "jolt" although it can be surprising.  

You can certainly put one hand on each terminal of a 24 Volt battery and not feel a thing, because your body has a far higher resistance than that wrench shorted across those same terminals.

Anything less than 50 Volts is normally considered "safe" for people.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie


karkauai
 

On it tomorrow, Pat.

Kent Robertson
S/V Kristy
USA cell: 828-234-6819

On Oct 9, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Patrick Mcaneny sailw32@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Kent, Why don't you check between the windlass and rail with a meter both ways , see if you get a voltage reading. What about running a wire from the neg. and then pos. side in the battery bank to your meter up at the windlass and again using the meter ,see if you have a reading ,also check the railing.

Good Luck,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Robertson karkauai@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sat, Oct 6, 2018 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Shock from windlass

 
Ok, thanks Bill and Bill.  Going to check it out tomorrow.

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM243

On Oct 6, 2018, at 4:50 PM, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 
Kent,

If there was no AC shore power connected, then that makes things a lot simpler--and safer.

24 Volts DC will normally not give enough current flow through the human body to notice. With very sweat-wet skin I have felt feel what might best be called a "tingle," not anything I'd call a "jolt" although it can be surprising.  

You can certainly put one hand on each terminal of a 24 Volt battery and not feel a thing, because your body has a far higher resistance than that wrench shorted across those same terminals.

Anything less than 50 Volts is normally considered "safe" for people.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie