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Wow Bill Kinney. that is a load of information. Thanks. It reveals a mine field. I.m going to print this and take it with me to my supplier. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
Exactly true.
New England Ropes alone makes at least a dozen different ropes that contain Dyneema. Some of them are so slippery then don't even work on winches, others are covered with polyester, or have blended fibers, and will work well in friction critical applications.
"Dyneema" is just the brand name for a particular brand of polyethylene fiber. "Spectra," "Vectran," "Technora," "Zylon," and "Kevlar" (among others) are brand names for different chemistries of very high strength, low stretch fibers. Not all of them are as slippery as others, and not all of them are usable, uncovered, in full time exposure to sunlight. Kevlar, for example is not UV stable and must be covered if in the sun. Dyneema and Spectra are UV stable, but in raw form are extremely slippery. To be useful on a winch they must either have a cover, or have other fibers blended into the yarn to increase the coefficient of friction.
Just to make things even more complex, some high tech line sun covers are really JUST sun covers, and will slide along the core if put under load on a winch or in a clutch. This is more of a problem with the polyethylene fibers (Dyneema and Spectra) than the fibers like Kevlar and Vectran.
On the Amel main outhaul line, and on the main traveller control line, the type of construction of the line, and the material the surface is made of are more important to performance than the exact chemistry of the core fiber.
When shopping for a high-tech line always look for one that is specifically recommended by the manufacturer for use in clutches and winches. A hint: the phrase, "abrasion resistant" is marketing-speak for "very slippery."
Some of these high tech fibers also suffer long term damage when making tight turns around the small sheaves used in our systems. Looking for those lines that are recommended for this is also a good idea. Just looking in New England Rope's listings, "Poly Tec" or "Endura Braid" is a good choice in Dyneema core, and V100 in Vectran. Other manufacturers will have their own names and brands for lines of similar performance.
Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Norfolk, VA, USA Following the cold front offshore--and south--tomorrow! ---In amelyachtowners@..., wrote : Danny, Today, I learned that Dyneema rope is made with a Dyneema braid outer sheath and also with a Dyneema core and a Polyester braid outer sheath. This is probably the reason for the mixed results from owners using Dyneema.
I had the outhaul line very tight 12+ years and never overhauled the outhaul gearbox. I did have a new spare waiting for a failure and maybe that is the reason it never failed...either that, or the famous Danny Simms grease access to the gearbox!😀
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Hi Bill, I would think mine is the dyneema sheath, it feels slippery. Strange they do that, I would think the polyester sheath would be cheaper. As to tightness causing damage. It wouldn't be the gearbox as the tension is on the pulleys not the gearbox. The vulnerable one would be the turning block I think. The word tight can be subjective, my tight and your tight may be different things. Thanks for your input (again) Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
Danny, Today, I learned that Dyneema rope is made with a Dyneema braid outer sheath and also with a Dyneema core and a Polyester braid outer sheath. This is probably the reason for the mixed results from owners using Dyneema.
I had the outhaul line very tight 12+ years and never overhauled the outhaul gearbox. I did have a new spare waiting for a failure and maybe that is the reason it never failed...either that, or the famous Danny Simms grease access to the gearbox!😀
Hi Bill, I was on the boat yesterday and tried tightening to line. While it had been pretty tight before I did manage to get a bit more out of it. It is tighter now than I think would be good for bearings. I will try it next time I go out and see if it still slips. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl On 02 November 2018 at 01:57 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Thanks for that. I guess some Dyneema rope is slipperier than other. I will start recommending Vectran. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School www.amelschool.com 720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970
Hi Bill, yes bar tight. And I couldn't believe how fast and far it slipped in 18 knots of wind Thanks for the page Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Exactly true.
New England Ropes alone makes at least a dozen different ropes that contain Dyneema. Some of them are so slippery then don't even work on winches, others are covered with polyester, or have blended fibers, and will work well in friction critical applications.
"Dyneema" is just the brand name for a particular brand of polyethylene fiber. "Spectra," "Vectran," "Technora," "Zylon," and "Kevlar" (among others) are brand names for different chemistries of very high strength, low stretch fibers. Not all of them are as slippery as others, and not all of them are usable, uncovered, in full time exposure to sunlight. Kevlar, for example is not UV stable and must be covered if in the sun. Dyneema and Spectra are UV stable, but in raw form are extremely slippery. To be useful on a winch they must either have a cover, or have other fibers blended into the yarn to increase the coefficient of friction.
Just to make things even more complex, some high tech line sun covers are really JUST sun covers, and will slide along the core if put under load on a winch or in a clutch. This is more of a problem with the polyethylene fibers (Dyneema and Spectra) than the fibers like Kevlar and Vectran.
On the Amel main outhaul line, and on the main traveller control line, the type of construction of the line, and the material the surface is made of are more important to performance than the exact chemistry of the core fiber.
When shopping for a high-tech line always look for one that is specifically recommended by the manufacturer for use in clutches and winches. A hint: the phrase, "abrasion resistant" is marketing-speak for "very slippery."
Some of these high tech fibers also suffer long term damage when making tight turns around the small sheaves used in our systems. Looking for those lines that are recommended for this is also a good idea. Just looking in New England Rope's listings, "Poly Tec" or "Endura Braid" is a good choice in Dyneema core, and V100 in Vectran. Other manufacturers will have their own names and brands for lines of similar performance.
Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Norfolk, VA, USA Following the cold front offshore--and south--tomorrow! ---In amelyachtowners@..., <brouse@...> wrote : Danny, Today, I learned that Dyneema rope is made with a Dyneema braid outer sheath and also with a Dyneema core and a Polyester braid outer sheath. This is probably the reason for the mixed results from owners using Dyneema.
I had the outhaul line very tight 12+ years and never overhauled the outhaul gearbox. I did have a new spare waiting for a failure and maybe that is the reason it never failed...either that, or the famous Danny Simms grease access to the gearbox!😀
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Danny, Today, I learned that Dyneema rope is made with a Dyneema braid outer sheath and also with a Dyneema core and a Polyester braid outer sheath. This is probably the reason for the mixed results from owners using Dyneema.
I had the outhaul line very tight 12+ years and never overhauled the outhaul gearbox. I did have a new spare waiting for a failure and maybe that is the reason it never failed...either that, or the famous Danny Simms grease access to the gearbox!😀
Hi Bill, I was on the boat yesterday and tried tightening to line. While it had been pretty tight before I did manage to get a bit more out of it. It is tighter now than I think would be good for bearings. I will try it next time I go out and see if it still slips. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl On 02 November 2018 at 01:57 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Thanks for that. I guess some Dyneema rope is slipperier than other. I will start recommending Vectran. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School www.amelschool.com 720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970
Hi Bill, yes bar tight. And I couldn't believe how fast and far it slipped in 18 knots of wind Thanks for the page Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Hi Bill, I was on the boat yesterday and tried tightening to line. While it had been pretty tight before I did manage to get a bit more out of it. It is tighter now than I think would be good for bearings. I will try it next time I go out and see if it still slips. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
On 02 November 2018 at 01:57 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Thanks for that. I guess some Dyneema rope is slipperier than other. I will start recommending Vectran. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School www.amelschool.com 720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970
Hi Bill, yes bar tight. And I couldn't believe how fast and far it slipped in 18 knots of wind Thanks for the page Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Thanks for that. I guess some Dyneema rope is slipperier than other. I will start recommending Vectran. Best, CW Bill Rouse Admiral, Texas Navy Commander Emeritus Amel School www.amelschool.com720 Winnie St Galveston Island, TX 77550 +1(832) 380-4970
Hi Bill, yes bar tight. And I couldn't believe how fast and far it slipped in 18 knots of wind Thanks for the page Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Hi Bill, yes bar tight. And I couldn't believe how fast and far it slipped in 18 knots of wind Thanks for the page Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Danny, maybe it wasn't tight enough. I know at least 10 others that have not had the problem. Did you use the outhaul to really get it tight?
I am sending you a page out of my book.
Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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Hi Bill, yes I tried to get Kevlar and had to take dyneema 12mm. I fitted it very tightly but useless, as soon as the breeze came up it slipped dramatically. I agree with you about it diminishing in diameter but I think the casing is very slick too. It would seem 14mm might be a try but I doubt if it will work. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean pearl
On 01 November 2018 at 07:37 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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|
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Danny,
Amel used Kevlar 10mm on the SM. It is nearly impossible to find.
Amel suggests 12mm Dyneema: The issue was not with the strength because Dyneema line is stronger than Kevlar. The issue is that most rope manufacturers are taking fiber from the middle of the rope and 10mm isn't really 10mm anymore. I purchased some 10mm that I could squeeze with my fingers to 7mm. Look at the Anderson Line Tender. You will see that if you can squeeze 10mm to 7mm, the line will certainly slip.
Hi All, A little while ago a number of you posted on replacing the control line for the mainsail out haul. I remember dyneema was not successful. Can some one remind me of what type was the best. Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl
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