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[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Volvo D2-75 for a SuperMaramu


Graham Boyd
 

Thanks Bill, yes, as you said Beta appear to be are very easy to deal with in this dept. 

Graham


 

Graham,

Beta offers the option of "isolated negative." Be sure that they spec this option for your repower.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 2:40 AM crwggb@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. Oddly enough your email beautifully summarises all my niggling doubts and questions that I will be presenting to the Beta man when we meet on Monday. After all 2 years ago it was him who suggested looking closely at the 60. I got an email from him this morning with all sorts of suggestions for fitting a 75!! So I am now pouring over those curves and gear box options.

I was concerned about the quantum leap in torque on the 75 and it's affect on the C drive, and fitting will be more of a fiddle, but I got also an email from the "go to" Amel man in the South of France who said only boats built in 89/91 need worry about that.

As you have pointed out in a previous post the weight increase on the 75 is not insignificant. I guess it all comes down to how one views this; in the aviation industry 2 passengers and their bags is always viewed as 200kg. So I guess it's like sailing around with 2 extra crew!.... or

I too will be interested in where this all ends up....I'll keep you posted.

Graham
Sula
SM140


Graham Boyd
 

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your thoughts. Oddly enough your email beautifully summarises all my niggling doubts and questions that I will be presenting to the Beta man when we meet on Monday. After all 2 years ago it was him who suggested looking closely at the 60. I got an email from him this morning with all sorts of suggestions for fitting a 75!! So I am now pouring over those curves and gear box options.

I was concerned about the quantum leap in torque on the 75 and it's affect on the C drive, and fitting will be more of a fiddle, but I got also an email from the "go to" Amel man in the South of France who said only boats built in 89/91 need worry about that.

As you have pointed out in a previous post the weight increase on the 75 is not insignificant. I guess it all comes down to how one views this; in the aviation industry 2 passengers and their bags is always viewed as 200kg. So I guess it's like sailing around with 2 extra crew!.... or

I too will be interested in where this all ends up....I'll keep you posted.

Graham
Sula
SM140


greatketch@...
 

Graham,

Like you I think a lot of sailboats are significantly overpowered because that is what people think they want.  

Your thoughts on the Beta 60 are interesting, and I'll follow carefully what you end up doing and how it works for you. None-electric and non-turbo is nice.  The weight is also a good match.  Just a couple things to be sure of... 

The Volvo specifications I have are rated at the output shaft of the transmission, be sure that the Beta HP ratings are the same.  You can easily lose 5% in the transmission. and another 3-4% in the C-drive.

The Beta 60 lists its HO at 2700 as 56HP, the Volvo graph I have shows theTMD22 as about 62 at 2800.  That's enough difference that it is starting to matter.

For what is is worth (and it's not all that much) using standard sizing calculations, and assuming a fully loaded displacement of 38,000 lbs and a LWL of 41.25ft, the HP needed AT THE PROPELLER for a SM looks like this:

6.4 kts 31.3HP
7.0 kts 40.6HP
7.4 kts 47.6HP
7.7 kts 54.1HP
8.0 kts 61.2HP
8.5 kts 72.0HP

I'd add 4% to account for loss in the C-drive if the engine is rated for  transmission output.  If the engine was rated for output from its shaft, I'd add 10%.

My thinking is I'd start to worry that the Beta60 might be cutting it a bit close on the lower end... depending on exactly what you want your engine to do.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA


---In amelyachtowners@..., <crwggb@...> wrote :

The answer to all this is in the torque curves. As you say Danny 2800 is the max on the Amel TMD22A installation. This effectively limits its max OP to approx 60HP. I have been very happy with this performance for the past 14 years as are many other owners. Looking at the torque curve for the TMD you will see max torque is at around 2500 RPM, hence  its susceptibility to a fowled prop/bottom. Compare that to the hugely bigger torque at similar RPM on the D2-75 and that is why it will push through to its advertised rpm despite the fowling.

Amel should really have rebadged the TMD22A with a 60HP label.... but of course thats not what sells boats! Given that I've been very happy with a "60HP" engine for all these years its the main reason I'm looking at the BETA 60. It has no turbo and no electronic control boxes and will fit very comfortably in the space. At cruising RPM (2000 to 2100) that will give 7kts it produces 170nm torque compared to the TMD22A...same RPM but153nm torque. The beta tops out at 2700 rpm. So essentially it does exactly what the tmd22a has been doing all these years...but without the turbo.

The BETA man is coming to the boat on Monday I'll keep you posted on how it all goes.

Graham


michael winand
 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If you don't mind sharing with us what a beta60 is going to cost for the engine above earth. and what panel you chose.
 In your area of the world .
I  think many of us who are going through the process would be grateful. 

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 18:37, crwggb@... [amelyachtowners]
wrote:
 

The answer to all this is in the torque curves. As you say Danny 2800 is the max on the Amel TMD22A installation. This effectively limits its max OP to approx 60HP. I have been very happy with this performance for the past 14 years as are many other owners. Looking at the torque curve for the TMD you will see max torque is at around 2500 RPM, hence  its susceptibility to a fowled prop/bottom. Compare that to the hugely bigger torque at similar RPM on the D2-75 and that is why it will push through to its advertised rpm despite the fowling.


Amel should really have rebadged the TMD22A with a 60HP label.... but of course thats not what sells boats! Given that I've been very happy with a "60HP" engine for all these years its the main reason I'm looking at the BETA 60. It has no turbo and no electronic control boxes and will fit very comfortably in the space. At cruising RPM (2000 to 2100) that will give 7kts it produces 170nm torque compared to the TMD22A...same RPM but153nm torque. The beta tops out at 2700 rpm. So essentially it does exactly what the tmd22a has been doing all these years...but without the turbo.

The BETA man is coming to the boat on Monday I'll keep you posted on how it all goes.

Graham


Graham Boyd
 

The answer to all this is in the torque curves. As you say Danny 2800 is the max on the Amel TMD22A installation. This effectively limits its max OP to approx 60HP. I have been very happy with this performance for the past 14 years as are many other owners. Looking at the torque curve for the TMD you will see max torque is at around 2500 RPM, hence  its susceptibility to a fowled prop/bottom. Compare that to the hugely bigger torque at similar RPM on the D2-75 and that is why it will push through to its advertised rpm despite the fowling.

Amel should really have rebadged the TMD22A with a 60HP label.... but of course thats not what sells boats! Given that I've been very happy with a "60HP" engine for all these years its the main reason I'm looking at the BETA 60. It has no turbo and no electronic control boxes and will fit very comfortably in the space. At cruising RPM (2000 to 2100) that will give 7kts it produces 170nm torque compared to the TMD22A...same RPM but153nm torque. The beta tops out at 2700 rpm. So essentially it does exactly what the tmd22a has been doing all these years...but without the turbo.

The BETA man is coming to the boat on Monday I'll keep you posted on how it all goes.

Graham


John Clark
 

Agree with Dan, my TMD-22 4500hrs at 2016 survey with clean hull and prop maxed at 2750rpm at 7.5kts.  Just before haulout this year with  some minor hull growth, and a few barnacles on the fixed prop she was down to 2400 rpm and 5 kts top speed.  After we relaunched with fresh paint and clean prop she was right back to survey performance.    If the new Volvo has a computer I would rather stick with the TMD-22 or look for something without a computer.   The TMD-22 may not be as high performance as a brand new engine but it is reliable at least it has been for me the last two years.

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Le Marin


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:58 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 


---------- Original Message ----------
I got a notice this had not gone through, so here again

Danny


Hi Graham,

another year and still fine. 850 hours on the clock. Early on there was an issue with the turbo and it was replaced under warranty and has been OK since. As I have said before fitting a new engine you will pay as much for the fitting as you do for the motor itself. I avoided that by sitting right on top of the process and doing most of the physical unbuttoning of the old engine and helping where I could with the install. It had identical spacing of the engine mount holes so we just had to make spacers to give the exact height. No alignment problems at all, it just slipped into place. . Had to have a bracket made to take the 24 volt house bank alternator. There was no neat spot for it like the TMD 22 so the bracket is on the front of the motor. You will be amazed at the quantum of the wiring looms that come with it, but I guess that applies to any engine. Given my time over I would do the rebuild, putting a new engine in is a complex business but I have no complaint about the D2 -75. One interesting thing. The TMD was very sensitive to fouling on the autoprop, losing revs, this motor seems impervious, the prop can be covered in barnacles and it still does its 3000 rpm. I can only assume it has a powerful governor that calls on spare power.

As to your revs with the TMD 22. 2800 IS THE CORRECT RPM UNDER LOAD. i'LL SAY IT AGAIN. 2800 IS THE CORRECT RPM UNDER LOAD. Do not replace your engine if that is your "problem" Yes it will cheerfully spin up to 4000 rpm in neutral but 2800 is what you get under load.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 14 November 2018 at 17:07 "crwggb@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny,

You are now a further year in with your Volvo D2-75. How is it going?

I would love to do a rebuild of the TMD22 but it's not vaguely economical here in Hong Kong.

After everything Ive read on the Amel forum I was more of less convinced that the D2-75 was the engine for me too. As such have been googling this engine for reliability and the reading is not good concerning the mechanical data interface unit, some of which it appears Volvo have just recalled. They are now onto their 6th version of the MDI. Have you had any trouble with this item. Although this engine claims to be "electronics free" it's actually not.

Yanmar are quite hard to deal with when it comes to the isolated negative earth with huge lead times, which has got me running back to Beta ....which is where I actually started.

The Beta man looked at the SM and the power curves for the TMD22A. None of us have ever got that engine above 2800 rpm which is actually at best 60HP! 78 HP doesn't occur until 4500rpm. We have all been sailing round the world quite happily with that out put for many years. He suggested to me the BETA 60 was the the ideal replacement as it almost exactly replicates that part of the TMD22A power curve that we've only ever been able to use but at a higher torque. These days every one seems determined to put bigger and bigger engines in their boats, but I'm not convinced!

If you've time I'd love to hear how your D2-75 is going?

Graham
SM140 Sula
Hong Kong


 


 


 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 


---------- Original Message ----------
I got a notice this had not gone through, so here again

Danny


Hi Graham,

another year and still fine. 850 hours on the clock. Early on there was an issue with the turbo and it was replaced under warranty and has been OK since. As I have said before fitting a new engine you will pay as much for the fitting as you do for the motor itself. I avoided that by sitting right on top of the process and doing most of the physical unbuttoning of the old engine and helping where I could with the install. It had identical spacing of the engine mount holes so we just had to make spacers to give the exact height. No alignment problems at all, it just slipped into place. . Had to have a bracket made to take the 24 volt house bank alternator. There was no neat spot for it like the TMD 22 so the bracket is on the front of the motor. You will be amazed at the quantum of the wiring looms that come with it, but I guess that applies to any engine. Given my time over I would do the rebuild, putting a new engine in is a complex business but I have no complaint about the D2 -75. One interesting thing. The TMD was very sensitive to fouling on the autoprop, losing revs, this motor seems impervious, the prop can be covered in barnacles and it still does its 3000 rpm. I can only assume it has a powerful governor that calls on spare power.

As to your revs with the TMD 22. 2800 IS THE CORRECT RPM UNDER LOAD. i'LL SAY IT AGAIN. 2800 IS THE CORRECT RPM UNDER LOAD. Do not replace your engine if that is your "problem" Yes it will cheerfully spin up to 4000 rpm in neutral but 2800 is what you get under load.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 14 November 2018 at 17:07 "crwggb@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Danny,

You are now a further year in with your Volvo D2-75. How is it going?

I would love to do a rebuild of the TMD22 but it's not vaguely economical here in Hong Kong.

After everything Ive read on the Amel forum I was more of less convinced that the D2-75 was the engine for me too. As such have been googling this engine for reliability and the reading is not good concerning the mechanical data interface unit, some of which it appears Volvo have just recalled. They are now onto their 6th version of the MDI. Have you had any trouble with this item. Although this engine claims to be "electronics free" it's actually not.

Yanmar are quite hard to deal with when it comes to the isolated negative earth with huge lead times, which has got me running back to Beta ....which is where I actually started.

The Beta man looked at the SM and the power curves for the TMD22A. None of us have ever got that engine above 2800 rpm which is actually at best 60HP! 78 HP doesn't occur until 4500rpm. We have all been sailing round the world quite happily with that out put for many years. He suggested to me the BETA 60 was the the ideal replacement as it almost exactly replicates that part of the TMD22A power curve that we've only ever been able to use but at a higher torque. These days every one seems determined to put bigger and bigger engines in their boats, but I'm not convinced!

If you've time I'd love to hear how your D2-75 is going?

Graham
SM140 Sula
Hong Kong