Engine Repower for Super Maramu


Dan Wilcox
 

Happy New Year!


This spring I will be repowering Feierabend, our 1992 Super Maramu which currently has a very tired Perkins Prima 80.  I'm in the pacific northwest, and looking at putting in a Yanmar 110hp.  The yard I plan to use has repowered another SM, and are well aware of needing an ungrounded engine.  Their concern is the other Yanmar 110hp they installed was modified to be ungrounded., but not sure if the new Yanmars can be with their electronics.  They have contacted Yanmar to see if this can be done with the new electronic version.


This has spurred on a couple questions:

1. I've read through some of the previous conversations, but don't have a good understanding why the Amel requires an ungrounded engine.  With major rewiring and replacing many of the electronics the boat has required, is there a point where it would no longer need an ungrounded engine?


2.  There is currently a Kohler 8EoZ generator that is original with the boat.  Is this also ungrounded, or is that not a consideration for the generator?


Thanks, Dan

SV Feierabend 

SM #86


greatketch@...
 

Dan,

Even before you get to talking with Yanmar about the isolated ground, talk to Amel about your C-Drive.  It has been mentioned several times here that the older C-Drives are not rated for greater than 100 HP.  I have never talked to them first hand about this, but the information comes from reliable sources!

Now about grounding...A full answer to that question is complicated and somewhat nuanced.  Let me try doing a short form...

The Amel has three electrical systems onboard (actually a few more depending on how you count, but this works for now).

The 24V DC system, the 220V AC system, and the bonding system.  In the Amel concept these systems are designed to be completely independent, and have no cross connections.  This minimizes the chance of problems with stray current corrosion, and with managing the problems that come about when plugged into shore power. Amel did violate this total isolation in a few places, but that's another story...

The engine block needs to be part of the bonding system for both lightening strike mitigation and corrosion control, especially of the C-drive components.

Most engines manufacturers also make the engine block part of the negative return circuit to the starting battery.  If this is true, then you have connected the bonding circuit to the battery negative through the engine block defeating the isolated bonding circuit.  This makes leakage currents (and all the very serious problems they can cause) both more likely, and much harder to detect.

I know when you are repowering it is a pain to put an isolated ground as a "must have," and many people will try to talk you out of it, but stick to it. It is important.

Engines can have isolated grounds in two ways.  Have starting motors that are isolated from the block and have their own negative connection, or have a relay that opens the block ground when it is not needed.  In either case, the alternator needs to be the isolated return type, and all the instrument senders need to be two-wire isolated ground.

All of the above information applies to the generator as well.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA


Miles
 

Hi Dan,

 

I also repowered two years ago with a Volvo Penta D2-75 after Amel warned me not to go to 110 hp.   The D2-75 has a much broader torque curve and feels more powerful than the old engine.  It is also very smooth and quiet and fuel efficient.

 

Smooth sailing,

 

Miles

 

s/y Ladybug sm 216,  Martinique


Will Stout <tango708@...>
 

Dan,
I have the Yanmar 110 hp 4JH4-HTE in Anni Bea True and she has performed really well.  I have about 1200 hours on the engine presently.  I did change the engine mounts to the HY150, which are the same mounts that the C-Drive uses.  I would recommend that you talk with Steve Davis on Aloha.  He re-powered with a newer version of the 4JH4-HTE that has more electronic control modules.  The engine is exceptionally smooth running.  

Warm Regards,
Will Stout
/)/) Anni Bea True
SM # 180
For Sale in Annapolis


Dan Wilcox
 

Thanks.  I have another local boat here that is a 1991 SM that got one put in, and has been running for 6 years without any problems to the C-drive.  I'm pushing out my decision to re-power for another year after having a little sticker shock on the price.  I was expecting it to be expensive, but at $55,000 I'm sitting back down... Right now we only use the boat a couple months a year cruising here in the Pacific NorthWest.  

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend #86

On Sunday, February 24, 2019, 7:33:17 PM PST, Will Stout via Groups.Io <tango708@...> wrote:


Dan,
I have the Yanmar 110 hp 4JH4-HTE in Anni Bea True and she has performed really well.  I have about 1200 hours on the engine presently.  I did change the engine mounts to the HY150, which are the same mounts that the C-Drive uses.  I would recommend that you talk with Steve Davis on Aloha.  He re-powered with a newer version of the 4JH4-HTE that has more electronic control modules.  The engine is exceptionally smooth running.  

Warm Regards,
Will Stout
/)/) Anni Bea True
SM # 180
For Sale in Annapolis


karkauai
 

Wow, Dan!  That’s more than twice what I paid in Puerto Rico ~5 years ago to repower with my 4JH4HTE.  Have you shopped around? 

Yanmar said the warranty could be voided if I used engine mounts other than the Yanmar mounts recommended.

Kent & Iris
SM 243
Kristy
Currently Turks&Caicos heading S for V.I.’s in a few days.

On Feb 25, 2019, at 12:19 AM, Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

Thanks.  I have another local boat here that is a 1991 SM that got one put in, and has been running for 6 years without any problems to the C-drive.  I'm pushing out my decision to re-power for another year after having a little sticker shock on the price.  I was expecting it to be expensive, but at $55,000 I'm sitting back down... Right now we only use the boat a couple months a year cruising here in the Pacific NorthWest.  

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend #86


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Dan,
As Kent noted, $55K is a breathtaking number, indeed - how much of that is installation labor?  I would have guessed the engine and transmission would be about $20K. 
Reading back on your posts I only see that you said your Perkins was "tired" which begs the question of exactly why you think you need to repower? How many hours are on your Perkins and just how is she "tired" - smoking, burning too much oil, not as much power as before? How's the cylinder compression? How about just rebuilding her or trading out for an already rebuilt engine. You could do it yourself for about $3000 or have it done for maybe $10K-ish.
Craig, SN68 Sangaris


Dan Wilcox
 

engine was $22k, labor was $24k, throw in some engine mounts additional parts and throw a 10% sales tax on it all.  Boat has circumnavigated at least 2 times and gone through 2 hr meters with at least 17,000 hours showing.  

When i bought the boat i could do 3,200 rpms, but now can only do 2,400.  Curently it is blowing plenty of black smoke.  i purhcased a new turbo and plan to install it this weekend.  the old one appeared to be failing.  I'm hoping that and maybe an injector cleaning is all I will need for now.

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend #86


On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 7:38 AM, Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
<sangaris@...> wrote:
Hi Dan,
As Kent noted, $55K is a breathtaking number, indeed - how much of that is installation labor?  I would have guessed the engine and transmission would be about $20K. 
Reading back on your posts I only see that you said your Perkins was "tired" which begs the question of exactly why you think you need to repower? How many hours are on your Perkins and just how is she "tired" - smoking, burning too much oil, not as much power as before? How's the cylinder compression? How about just rebuilding her or trading out for an already rebuilt engine. You could do it yourself for about $3000 or have it done for maybe $10K-ish.
Craig, SN68 Sangaris


Stephen Davis
 

Hi Dan,

We repowered Aloha (hull 72) at a yard in St Augustine, FL in August 2015 with a Yanmar 4JH-80CR. The engine itself was a little over $16,000, and installation was about $4000. Frequently, the install can be as much as the engine, but that should not be the case on an SM due to ease of access. I’m not sure who is quoting you 55k for this job, but I would look elsewhere. Also, if you are considering going with more horsepower, I’d stick with the 80hp, as we have found it to be economical and plenty of power in all our cruising. 

At this point, we have 680 hours on the engine, and it has performed flawlessly. We consider it to be one of the best investments we have made in our boat. The engine came with Yanmar mounts, which we installed, but their was no mention from the Yanmar rep who inspected the install that we were required to use them. We ended up changing the mounts back to new original mounts in Martinique a little less than 2 years later. The French Yanmar/Amel mechanic inspected our alignment and found it good, but determined the Yanmar mounts were a bit to soft, and caused premature wear in the rubber bushings inside the Vetus coupling. Moral of the story is that I would not use the Yanmar mounts. We have had no problem with wear of the bushings since switching the mounts. 

Feel free to contact me if I can help with any other info. 

Regards,

Steve Davis
Aloha SM 72
Currently anchored at Lahaina, Maui


On Feb 24, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

Thanks.  I have another local boat here that is a 1991 SM that got one put in, and has been running for 6 years without any problems to the C-drive.  I'm pushing out my decision to re-power for another year after having a little sticker shock on the price.  I was expecting it to be expensive, but at $55,000 I'm sitting back down... Right now we only use the boat a couple months a year cruising here in the Pacific NorthWest.  

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend #86

On Sunday, February 24, 2019, 7:33:17 PM PST, Will Stout via Groups.Io <tango708@...> wrote:


Dan,
I have the Yanmar 110 hp 4JH4-HTE in Anni Bea True and she has performed really well.  I have about 1200 hours on the engine presently.  I did change the engine mounts to the HY150, which are the same mounts that the C-Drive uses.  I would recommend that you talk with Steve Davis on Aloha.  He re-powered with a newer version of the 4JH4-HTE that has more electronic control modules.  The engine is exceptionally smooth running.  

Warm Regards,
Will Stout
/)/) Anni Bea True
SM # 180
For Sale in Annapolis


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

For those of you who installed Yanmar engines, were they able to modify their standard engine to use an isolated ground return?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie 
Underway from Georgetown to Acklins Is., Bahamas


Dan Wilcox
 

it can  be modified, but is a lot of work... or you can order an isolated version still.

thanks, Dan
Feierabend #86


On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 7:45 AM, Bill Kinney via Groups.Io
<greatketch@...> wrote:
For those of you who installed Yanmar engines, were they able to modify their standard engine to use an isolated ground return?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie 
Underway from Georgetown to Acklins Is., Bahamas


karkauai
 

Yes, Bill.  110 HP 4JH4HTE.  It was hard to find a mechanic/electrician who understood the issue.  I posted a schematic in the files section of the way it is done.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy



On Feb 26, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

it can  be modified, but is a lot of work... or you can order an isolated version still.

thanks, Dan
Feierabend #86


On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 7:45 AM, Bill Kinney via Groups.Io
For those of you who installed Yanmar engines, were they able to modify their standard engine to use an isolated ground return?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie 
Underway from Georgetown to Acklins Is., Bahamas


eric freedman
 

I cannot speak for the 4jh4hte  - just the 4jh3hte.

Getting the components is easy, If you have a 175 amp alternator it is already isolated.

 

The time to change over the engine to an isolated ground should take less than a day if is wired similarly to the 4jh3hte.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 12:16 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Engine Repower for Super Maramu

 

Yes, Bill.  110 HP 4JH4HTE.  It was hard to find a mechanic/electrician who understood the issue.  I posted a schematic in the files section of the way it is done.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy

 

 


On Feb 26, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

it can  be modified, but is a lot of work... or you can order an isolated version still.

 

thanks, Dan

Feierabend #86

 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 7:45 AM, Bill Kinney via Groups.Io

For those of you who installed Yanmar engines, were they able to modify their standard engine to use an isolated ground return?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie 
Underway from Georgetown to Acklins Is., Bahamas


eric freedman
 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of eric freedman
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 10:37 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Engine Repower for Super Maramu

 

I cannot speak for the 4jh4hte  - just the 4jh3hte.

Getting the components is easy, If you have a 175 amp alternator it is already isolated.

 

The time to change over the engine to an isolated ground should take less than a day if is wired similarly to the 4jh3hte.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 12:16 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Engine Repower for Super Maramu

 

Yes, Bill.  110 HP 4JH4HTE.  It was hard to find a mechanic/electrician who understood the issue.  I posted a schematic in the files section of the way it is done.

Kent

SM 243

Kristy

 

 


On Feb 26, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

it can  be modified, but is a lot of work... or you can order an isolated version still.

 

thanks, Dan

Feierabend #86

 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 7:45 AM, Bill Kinney via Groups.Io

For those of you who installed Yanmar engines, were they able to modify their standard engine to use an isolated ground return?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie 
Underway from Georgetown to Acklins Is., Bahamas


Davi Rozgonyi
 

That is an incredible amount of money,and as the others say, I'd RUN elsewhere. And probably name and shame, but that's just me; I'm a vindictive little snot :)

We have a 1991 SM which we just repowered in Mallorca. Had a few engine choices, but ended up taking the original Perkins Prima M80T and reboring it (first oversize) and refurbishing it with everything new (like the turbo) or reconditioned/tested that was still fine. We did this because after a lot of research, for the value and ease of working on it anywhere in the world, and the lack of electronics and common rail problems of the newer engines (esp the volvo D3), the Prima seemed like it can't be beat (as long as you have a good one to start from). Total cost, about 8000 euros, installed. 

And yes, what the others say, the older C drives aren't made to take 110 horses. Ours was replaced with one that could, but still didn't go up to the yanmar because of price and need....the prima is plenty for this boat in my opinion.