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1 - 20 of 24
[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Main Sail Furling Motor Issue
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Thanks Duane. I now remember you did a detailed write up on this. I will go back and read. Fortunately my manual furler is working or we would be motoring everywhere. Once fixed I'll keep it well lubed to fight corrosion. Chuck Joy SM #388 East bound to St.Martin Windward Gods be kind
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sailor63109@...
I did a detailed write up on the manual furler overhaul, not the motor gearbox.
It's pretty simple. Remove the cover plates, you'll have to pry them off carefully. Inside you'll find a worm gear that drives a large bronze gear on a shaft that turns the furler. This bronze gear is known to wear out, so I replaced it while I had it apart (sourced from Amel). You'll also need the oil seals. You need the bearing puller to remove the bronze gear, and the top and bottom bearing. I understand that they were originally filled with oil. Following advice on the forum I filled them with grease. Many people installed grease zerts so they could top up the grease. While I had them off I painted them, many people have them powder coated. Duane Wanderer, SM#477 |
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John Clark
Chuck, I did the same rebuild of both gears. The manual furler is also the thrust bearing for the mainsail foil. It rusted to mush and almost seized up. The bearings are off the shelf wheel bearings....cost less than 20 USD. The trick to getting the bearings out is heat. I put the case in the oven heated to about 350F and the big bearing pops right out. Seals are the same off the shelf parts ... I think I posted the part numbers on the forum. If you cannot find the post I will send you a list. Regards John SV Annie,. SM 37 Prickly Bay
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greatketch@...
Duane,
Having just had my main sail manual furling gearbox apart, I know on mine there is no worm gear, just two spur gears. Which makes sense, because you (usually) can not back-drive a worm gear. Were there different models? Or are you thinking of something else? On all of these gearboxes it is critical to consider all the lip seals maintenance items that need to be changed on a regular basis. I have mine on a two year replacement cycle, which is probably excessive, but seals are cheap and readily available, and gears are NOT. If you see even a trace of rust on the seal, that means the garter spring is rusting and failure is imminent. Replace it sooner--not later! When changed it is also important that the seals be packed with grease so they do not run dry, even if you use oil as the primary lubricant in the gear box. In addition to lubrication, grease helps make a good water barrier. On the seals that face upward, and are subject to the most persistent saltwater contact, consider going with double-lip seals instead of single for an additional barrier to water, dirt, and salt. Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Spanish Wells, Bahamas |
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Gents.
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I am enjoying the recent chatter re the main furling motor. I just pulled mine out as it was quite “tired” Dissection revealed cancerous corrosion everywhere. Our is the vertical type which sits in the mast, and turns on the same axis as the furling foil. I had asked the former owners mechanic how to service the motor while we were in Martinique in April. His response “you don’t, it’s fine...”. During removal I noted an errant zip tie (of still unexplained importance or virtue) sitting atop the seal/gasket which seemed to have worn significantly the seal/gasket and permitted the egress of the elements. The motor could not be resuscitated. A new one from our man Thierry arrives Wednesday. So: my question: other than the habitual application of silicone grease to the seal and corrosion X inside, any other tips for prophylaxis on this vertically aligned motor? I’d appreciate any thoughts! Duane, I looked for your original treatise and could not find it if you could send I’d be obliged. Many thanks to you all. Porter Ibis 54-152. Panama On Jan 14, 2019, at 2:56 PM, John Clark john.biohead@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Hi Porter,
The zip tie was likely around the "V" seal that sits on top of all, hopefully keeping stuff out of the rest of the assembly. As they deteriorate they crack open and people often "repair" that with a zip tie rather than disassemble to install a fresh one. Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68 |
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sailor63109@...
Bill,
I'm pretty sure of my terminology (per Google anyway). The worm gear I mentioned is "a shaft with a spiral groove meant to engage a gear" turned by the motor. The worm gear turned a large round gear that turned the furler extrusion. Mine are Leroy Somer MVA gearboxes. I definitely agree with your lip seal comments. I'm not sure I can get mine out without disassembly. Are you able to remove them similiar to the C-Drive prop shaft lip seals? Using two smaller ones makes sense. Duane Wanderer, SM#477 West Palm Beach and headed to the Bahamas. |
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greatketch@...
Ah, now I got it. What you describe is a worm gear, but...
You are not referring to the manual gearbox, rather the electrically driven gearboxes. The manual box is the one attached to the foil designed as a backup for the the electric designed to be driven by a winch handle. A "double lip seal" is NOT two smaller ones! Even if you could find seals so thin as to fit two in that housing, it would be a bad idea. A "double lip seal" is the same size seal frame, and would look superficially the same, but with the rubber shaped into two lips, one specifically designed to keep grease/oil in and the other to keep contaminants out. They are not available in all seal sizes. Removal, and proper replacement of any lipseal requires disassembly. It should never be done with the shaft in place. There is simply no good way to remove the seal without risking serious damage to the shaft or seal housing. With the C-drive the removal of the wearing out bearing gives the room around the shaft to work. There is no similar alternative on the gearboxes. Bill Kinney SM160, Harmonie Spanish Wells, Bahamas ---In amelyachtowners@..., <sailor63109@...> wrote : Bill, I'm pretty sure of my terminology (per Google anyway). The worm gear I mentioned is "a shaft with a spiral groove meant to engage a gear" turned by the motor. The worm gear turned a large round gear that turned the furler extrusion. Mine are Leroy Somer MVA gearboxes. I definitely agree with your lip seal comments. I'm not sure I can get mine out without disassembly. Are you able to remove them similiar to the C-Drive prop shaft lip seals? Using two smaller ones makes sense. Duane Wanderer, SM#477 West Palm Beach and headed to the Bahamas. |
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sailor63109@...
Porter,
I didn't do a write up on the motor gearboxes, just the manual gearbox. You can find that here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/search/photos?query=gearbox#zax/albums_449168476. The Leroy Somer gearbox is covered here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/amelyachtowners/search/photos?query=gearbox#zax/albums_333498171 Note that the second link has the bearings used, but I didn't see the oil seals listed. Duane Wanderer, SM#477 |
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Thank you Duane! I’ll have a good read, quite appreciated
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Porter On Jan 15, 2019, at 10:02 AM, sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Ryan Meador
Chuck, We had the exact same symptoms as you when we were approaching St Maarten a couple months ago -- the motor was getting power, but it wouldn't turn. Upon arrival, I happened to find a brochure for a company called EnerTech (enertechnv.com), which seems to service all of the pumps/motors on a SM. But before enlisting their services, I took the brushes out of the motor and cleaned them (and blew out the dust inside the motor, which may not be wise) and it started working again, so I didn't end up using them. I thought I'd solved the problem, but then it crapped out again right as we got to Martinique. I had Amel rebuild it, and they said one of the power wires was actually broken off inside the motor and just making intermittent contact! I'm sure any motor company could fix that. I've also seen a couple mentions in this thread that the mizzen furling gearbox is water-lubricated. I do not believe this is correct. I replaced mine with a new one from Amel some months ago, and it arrived completely full of grease. When I was visiting Amel Caraïbes, I asked them if it was supposed to be full of grease and they said yes. I think we should all be putting grease in there. Additionally, there is a seal around the shaft at the top which would prevent water ingress, so washing it with water shouldn't do anything. On my failed gearbox, this seal had disintegrated and there was no grease inside. Finally, there are no drain holes in the bottom. There are a couple indentations that I believe are to insert pin pliers to unscrew the bottom, but they don't go all the way through. There is no way for the rinse water to get out, if it could even get in. Thanks, Ryan and Kelly SM 233 Iteration Charlotte Amalie, USVI On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 12:50 AM Porter McRoberts portermcroberts@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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Thanks Ryan, I just arrived in st.martin from bvis. After my body quites rattling from the trip I'm going to open her up. I'll see what I can find. If it's a motor issue beyond my capabilities I'll check out who you recommend. I also got a lead from shrimpies net named Dave from company Custom Fit. Hope to see you down the road. Chuck Joy SM #388 Marigot Bay SMX On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ryan Meador ryan.d.meador@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
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sailor63109@...
Chuck,
I had a few minutes and went looking for the parts on the forum. Here's what I found: For the Manual Mainsail Furler: =================================== Bearings: Source , Motion Industries - Tapered bearing item # 32009xm-90kmi , Bore 45mm, OD. 75mm, Width 20mm , Manufacturer Timken Ball Bearing , item # 9105k Bore 25mm, OD. 47mm, Width 12mm Manufacturer Fafnir Oil Seals : Source , Metric Seals Inc. 45mmX60mmX7mm 25mmX33mm X6mm You will need one each of bearings and seals Pat SM Shenanigans ================================= If you find the seals and bearings for the motorized gearbox you might post them. Duane |
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Just a friendly reminder to my fellow Amel owners to do a regular check on the shaft seal that sits over the main furler cylinder. It's the one circled in RED in the picture below:
 I would advise you have look at it ASAP and put it on your annual maintenance list to at least inspect it's condition and if it's at all questionable, replace it. It costs less than $5 to buy a new one but could end up costing you hundreds of $ or more if it fails and you destroy the gears. Don't be like me and wait until your main furler seizes before you check it! Here is a picture of my seal. It actually has a split in it so I use the term "seal" loosely:  I can confirm that it is a VA-45 or VA-045 V-ring Seal as you can faintly see "VA 45" molded into the rubber in the upper left side of the picture. The failed seal has allowed saltwater, rainwater and dirt to enter the furler cylinder for some time now and it eventually destroyed the tapered roller bearing that sits at the top of the shaft. Here is what my bearing looked like when I got it off the shaft AFTER I cleaned it up:   Needless to say the bearing is completely destroyed. Obviously this did not happen overnight but has been going on for a long time. I've owned my boat for just over two years now and surprisingly the main furler has worked almost all of the time. It did pop a breaker now and again but I attributed that to the motor brushes being old and worn and all the carbon dust that was inside the motor when I took it apart this spring to clean and change the brushes. I'm sure that the worn brushes and carbon dust did not help things, but the main culprit was clearly the corroded roller bearing caused by the failed V-ring Seal. I would highly recommend that you have look at your furler seal now and inspect it on regular basis. If you find it cracked, damaged or missing I suggest that you take the furler assembly down and open it up, clean the inside and inspect the bearing as well as the other ball bearing, three lip seals, and two o-rings that are inside. It does not take that long nor require any special tools to do this tear down and inspection. If you do need to change bearings, a bearing puller certainly makes the job easier. Thanks to Duane (Wanderer) and Pat (Shenanigans) and others on this forum for some excellent pictures, part numbers and sources for replacement parts. Some if the information is spread around a bit here so once I am sure that I have all of the correct information regarding all the replacement parts that I needed to do the rebuild I will make another post here to try to get it all in one place. -- Mark McGovern SM #440 Cara Deale, MD USA |
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Mark, There has been some information out here that the seal is VA45mmX60mmX7mm Seal OR 45mmX58mmX7mm. The middle dimension is the shaft size. I know for a fact that Amel 54 #69 had a 58mm shaft. One SM owner recorded his as 60mm, but was not 100% sure. Can you verify this issue? Your advice certainly applies to all Santorins, Super Maramus, and 54s. Bill --
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote: Just a friendly reminder to my fellow Amel owners to do a regular check on the shaft seal that sits over the main furler cylinder. It's the one circled in RED in the picture below: |
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On my Amel 54 the seal is exactly the same as the one behind the prop at the C-drive - of these Imalways have spares and when I needed it a week ago, lucky me found out...
fair winds Robin Carré d‘As Amel 54 #54
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Hi Bill,
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On our vessels we have several locations where there are lip seals in the horizontal position in exposed areas like what Mark found and the furling gearboxes. If the seal is slightly below the elevation of the gearbox surface it will tend to collect water. What do you think of going with a thicker, for example 8 versus 7 mm, Lip seal and inserting it such that it is slightly above the surrounding metal surface. In that way it will be less prone to collect water. Mike Ondra Aletes SM#240 On Sep 19, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Mike Ondra <mdondra@...> wrote:
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Mark McGovern
Bill,
I think some of the confusion has actually come from Amel. Alan Grayson of Ora Pai (SM #406) recently rebuilt his Main Furler Assembly with parts from Amel. They sent him a parts list that showed that one of the lip seals was 45mm ID x 58mm OD x 7mm Width. However, the drawing that they also sent him showed that seal size was 45mm ID x 60mm OD x 7mm Width. In addition, the seal that he removed from his Main Furler Assembly was 45mm ID x 60mm OD x 7mm Width. This also matches the seal that I removed from Cara (SM #440). So it is likely that the correct size is 45mm ID x 60mm OD x 7mm Width. However, this does not mean that some Amels might not have a different size seal. I think it is best for each owner to complete the tear down of the Main Furler Assembly and check/measure for themselves to be sure that they get the correct parts. Obviously, that will cause some delay in getting the assembly back together and re-installed on the boat but oil seals, bearings and o-rings are all common items that are relatively easily sourced quickly and cheaply most anywhere. Regarding what I found on Cara, there are four (4) seals in total in the Main Furler Assembly. Three of them are standard lip seals also called oil seals or rotary shaft seals. These are the kind of seals that we use for the C-Drive output shaft and the Bowthruster tunnel. They are made from a combination of some kind of rubber and steel and have a garter spring. The sizes of the lip seals that were installed in my Main Furler Assembly were as follows: 1 x 45mm ID x 60mm OD x 7mm Width 1 x 25mm ID x 33mm OD x 6mm Width 1 x 30mm ID x 40mm OD x 7mm Width These seals are all designed and installed to keep the grease INSIDE the Main Furler assembly. The fourth seal is different. It is a V-Ring seal that sits outside on top of the Main Furler assembly. It's main purpose appears to be keeping contaminants OUT of the Main Furler. I found this explanation of these types of seals here https://www.allsealsinc.com/v-rings.html V-Ring Seal Size: 1 x VA-45 (or VA-045) V-ring Seal: 40mm ID x 50mm OD x 9mm Width. I ordered SKF Part # 400450. Like I said in my previous post, once I have confirmed that everything that I have ordered to complete the rebuild of my Main Furler assembly is correct and everything installs properly, I will make a comprehensive post of the parts that I used as well as my parts sources here. Thanks, Mark -- Mark McGovern SM #440 Cara Deale, MD USA |
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Olivier Beaute
Hello Mark, I got your private e-mail too. The grease originally put in the manual furler (mainsail or mizzen) is silicone grease, rather sticky and water resistant. The furler is rather resistant to water ingress but it is true that this "anti dust lip seal" on top of it is important. The lip seal at the winch handle nozzle is important too. During a survey, I always test the manual furler separately, mainly to check if there is not too much resistance that could disable or overload the electric furler. This test should be done once a year, just to make sure the manual furling is easily working. Olivier |
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Mark McGovern
Thanks for the information, Olivier. Much appreciated!
As promised, here is the complete list of parts that I used to overhaul the Manual Mainsail Furler assembly on Super Maramu Cara Hull #440: Bearings (ID x OD x Width):
1 x 32009 Tapered Roller Bearing; 45mm x 75mm x 20mm
1 x 6005 Ball Bearing; 25mm x 47mm x 12mm
Oil Seals (aka Lip Seals):
1 x Oil Seal; 45mm X 60mm X 7mm
1 x Oil Seal; 25mm X 33mm X 6mm
1 x Oil Seal; 30mm x 40mm x 7mm
V-Ring Seal:
1 x V-Ring Shaft Seal VA-045; For Shaft Diameter 43mm-48mm; ID 40mm; OD 50mm; Width 9mm
O-Rings (Cross Section x ID):
1 x O-Ring 2mm x 94mm
1 x O-Ring 1.5mm x 62mm
Hardware:
4 x Socket Head Cap Screw; 316L Stainless Steel; M6 x 50mm x 1.0 Thread Pitch
4 x Socket Head Cap Screw; 316L Stainless Steel; M6 x 25mm x 1.0 Thread Pitch
1 x Set Screw; 316L Stainless Steel; M5 x 6mm x 0.8 Thread Pitch Comments and "Unusual" Tools Used:
I did not add links to the specific parts that I purchased above since these links tend to change over time. However, below is a list of some of the sources that I have used to purchase replacement components for this and other projects on my Super Maramu. Oddly, some of the most affordable places that I found to buy bearings from are in the United Kingdom despite the fact that I live in the USA. Even when I factored in shipping costs. All of these sites carry at least some of the better quality brands like SKF, FAG, Koyo, Timken, and NSK. I purchased SKF bearings. Bearings:
Oil Seals:
V-Ring Seals:
O-Rings:
www.theoringstore.com (excellent selection and usually a low Minimum Order Quantity)
Hardware:
As many of you already know, the last three companies listed (McMaster, Grainger, and MSC) are big online "MRO" companies. They carry pretty much all of the items you need for this project but for the most part you don't know what brand you are buying and the parts tend to cost higher than they do on the sites that I listed for the bearings, seals, and o-rings. I hope this helps some of you gather all the parts, tools, and other bits you need to tackle this job. Good luck! -- Mark McGovern SM #440 Cara Deale, MD USA |
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