[Amel Yacht Owners] Freezer Insulation


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Duane,

certainly sounds a bit of a mess. Not sure about faulty methodology by Amel. A few months ago I removed Ocean Pearls freezer so I could do a full clean of the water tank. All the insulation was in perfect order, the tech who I employed to do the piping disconnect/connect thought this remarkable as it showed no sign of ever being wet. We lived aboard for two tears as we sailed her home and then for several years 4 or 5 months a year in tropical Pacific islands. (not a flaming arrow just a wonder if you need to look for another reason)

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 16 January 2019 at 03:54 "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I'm looking for suggestions on how to improve the insulation in our aft (and only) freezer.


We have had condensation from the freezer running into the deck locker just to stbd of the freezer for some time.  When we pulled the freezer out (not too bad of a job) I see that Amel used a liquid foam method where they built a form around the freezer (upside down) and injected foam to form the walls.  Then they put a bottom on the wall forms and injected foam thru a 4" diameter hole to form the bottom.  The thickness was: 3" bottom; 2" stbd side; 2.5" port; 1.5" fwd; 


The insulation was soaked at the joint between the "walls" and the "bottom" foam applications due to cracking/shrinkage/poor jointing, because air could penetrate through the voids and get to the cold surface and condense.  The foam was also deeply cracked in several places, again causing condensation. It was so wet in these areas when you pressed on the foam, water would flow out.  I can't imagine why Amel didn't use a closed cell foam.  I would say this is not one of Amels finest moments (OK, I'M READY FOR THE FLAMING ARROWS).  The saturated insulation was frozen where it was close to the box, and the wet unfrozen insulation must have been nearly worthless (I estimate this area to be 50%).  It must have been in this condition shortly after construction, but if you're not living aboard the insulation has a chance to dry out between uses.


The wood panels forming the stbd and fwd sides are not removable without cutting through fiberglass tabbing and disconnecting the refrigerant lines, which seems to me major surgery I'm not eager to take on afloat.


I've removed the wet insulation on the bottom, and the sides up to the wood panels (took about two hours).  Above that level there wasn't much saturated foam (I think it was wicking upward  into the "wall" from the "bottom" joint).  I'll let it dry on the main cabin table for a week.  I'm thinking of replacing this with 3 inches of closed cell EPS foam insulation board.  There is room on the back for an additional 2" of EPS (Amel put a 2" batt of insualtion there taped to the galley cabinets).  Then painting all the insulation I can reach with a paint intended to cut off vapor transmission to the foam.  This EPS has an R value of 2.9 per inch of thickness, so 3" is 8.7 which has to be better than the sauturated insulation.  On the back with the additional 1.5" board it will be an R of 13.


The insulation has to be glued to the freezer box (polyurethane construction glue?), and since the box has rounded corners there will be voids.  I'm thinking of leaving gaps between the "walls" and "bottom" insulation joints and filling them with one of the spray can crack filling foams to try to make it as vapor tight as possible.  I thought about a plastic vapor barrier but I can't access behind the wood panels on the fwd and stbd sides.


Any thoughts or suggestions on this method?


Thanks,

Duane

Wanderer, SM#477


 


 


 


Duane Siegfri
 

Danny,

Thanks for the reply.  I can't imagine another reason.  The insulation is soaked around and above that insulation bottom to wall joint, and the insulation was pourous and cracked.  It wasn't wet above the joint very far.  If it were the seal leaking cold air then the wet would start at the top.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Duane


Duane Siegfri
 

Danny,

One more thing, I noticed that there is a mark on the fiberglass deck below the watertank that appears to be the same outline as the insulation on the bottom of the freezer.  Did the insulation on the bottom of the freezer sit on the fiberglass deck below for additional support?  That seems hard to believe considering the tight tolerance on the freezer insulation thickness that would be necessary to keep the freezer from rocking.  It could be the mark was made by dripping condensation.

Duane


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Duane,

from the comments by my frig tech your experience is far more common than mine, he indicated I was all but unique so I am the lucky one. I gathered from him that often, mostly it was bilge water sloshing around that causes the problem and I have never had water sloshing around under my freezer.........until today. Just goes to show, never say never. Fresh water at that. I have yet to discover the source but I suspect a very slow accumulation. My water tank has not been full (the breather exits to this area) and I cant see any leaks in the fresh water system under the sink.This area connects. Haven't been using the aircon much, just a bit of running to keep them functioning. Freezer water cooling feed line?

I shall find it!!

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 17 January 2019 at 01:33 "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
 

Danny,


Thanks for the reply.  I can't imagine another reason.  The insulation is soaked around and above that insulation bottom to wall joint, and the insulation was pourous and cracked.  It wasn't wet above the joint very far.  If it were the seal leaking cold air then the wet would start at the top.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Duane

 


 


 


 

Danny,

Most common sources in order are:
  1. Cracked condensation plastic collection box on Salon AC
  2. Partially clogged AC condensation drain
  3. Cracked galley sink spray handle near the hose connection
  4. Partially clogged Clothes Washer drain
  5. Leaking fresh water connection to the clothes washer
  6. Leaking drain under the sink
  7. Leaking freshwater pipes/hoses under the sink
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:48 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Hi Duane,

from the comments by my frig tech your experience is far more common than mine, he indicated I was all but unique so I am the lucky one. I gathered from him that often, mostly it was bilge water sloshing around that causes the problem and I have never had water sloshing around under my freezer.........until today. Just goes to show, never say never. Fresh water at that. I have yet to discover the source but I suspect a very slow accumulation. My water tank has not been full (the breather exits to this area) and I cant see any leaks in the fresh water system under the sink.This area connects. Haven't been using the aircon much, just a bit of running to keep them functioning. Freezer water cooling feed line?

I shall find it!!

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 17 January 2019 at 01:33 "sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
 

Danny,


Thanks for the reply.  I can't imagine another reason.  The insulation is soaked around and above that insulation bottom to wall joint, and the insulation was pourous and cracked.  It wasn't wet above the joint very far.  If it were the seal leaking cold air then the wet would start at the top.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Duane

 


 


 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Bill,

I shall search on. Hardly use the aircon, haven't used the clothes washer in a while, done a fairly good first look at the under sink piping but there is a slight leak in the water system somewhere as the pump isn't holding pressure like it used to. That could be anywhere but the accumulation suggests a central point.

Thanks again and wishing you and Judy all the best for the year ahead.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean pearl

On 18 January 2019 at 11:29 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,

Most common sources in order are:
  1. Cracked condensation plastic collection box on Salon AC
  2. Partially clogged AC condensation drain
  3. Cracked galley sink spray handle near the hose connection
  4. Partially clogged Clothes Washer drain
  5. Leaking fresh water connection to the clothes washer
  6. Leaking drain under the sink
  7. Leaking freshwater pipes/hoses under the sink
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:48 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Hi Duane,

from the comments by my frig tech your experience is far more common than mine, he indicated I was all but unique so I am the lucky one. I gathered from him that often, mostly it was bilge water sloshing around that causes the problem and I have never had water sloshing around under my freezer.........until today. Just goes to show, never say never. Fresh water at that. I have yet to discover the source but I suspect a very slow accumulation. My water tank has not been full (the breather exits to this area) and I cant see any leaks in the fresh water system under the sink.This area connects. Haven't been using the aircon much, just a bit of running to keep them functioning. Freezer water cooling feed line?

I shall find it!!

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 17 January 2019 at 01:33 " sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
 

Danny,


Thanks for the reply.  I can't imagine another reason.  The insulation is soaked around and above that insulation bottom to wall joint, and the insulation was pourous and cracked.  It wasn't wet above the joint very far.  If it were the seal leaking cold air then the wet would start at the top.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Duane

 

 


 


 

 

 

 


 


 


 

Danny,

Check the weird looking freshwater pipe/hose fitting near the floor behind the clothes washer. It is a filter and hose coupling. I had it start leaking. it is #5 on my list. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 5:14 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Bill,

I shall search on. Hardly use the aircon, haven't used the clothes washer in a while, done a fairly good first look at the under sink piping but there is a slight leak in the water system somewhere as the pump isn't holding pressure like it used to. That could be anywhere but the accumulation suggests a central point.

Thanks again and wishing you and Judy all the best for the year ahead.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean pearl

On 18 January 2019 at 11:29 "Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

Danny,

Most common sources in order are:
  1. Cracked condensation plastic collection box on Salon AC
  2. Partially clogged AC condensation drain
  3. Cracked galley sink spray handle near the hose connection
  4. Partially clogged Clothes Washer drain
  5. Leaking fresh water connection to the clothes washer
  6. Leaking drain under the sink
  7. Leaking freshwater pipes/hoses under the sink
Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Admiral, Texas Navy
Commander Emeritus

Amel School  http://www.amelschool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 10:48 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS simms@... [amelyachtowners] < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

 

Hi Duane,

from the comments by my frig tech your experience is far more common than mine, he indicated I was all but unique so I am the lucky one. I gathered from him that often, mostly it was bilge water sloshing around that causes the problem and I have never had water sloshing around under my freezer.........until today. Just goes to show, never say never. Fresh water at that. I have yet to discover the source but I suspect a very slow accumulation. My water tank has not been full (the breather exits to this area) and I cant see any leaks in the fresh water system under the sink.This area connects. Haven't been using the aircon much, just a bit of running to keep them functioning. Freezer water cooling feed line?

I shall find it!!

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

Mangonui

New Zealand

On 17 January 2019 at 01:33 " sailor63109@... [amelyachtowners]" < amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 
 

Danny,


Thanks for the reply.  I can't imagine another reason.  The insulation is soaked around and above that insulation bottom to wall joint, and the insulation was pourous and cracked.  It wasn't wet above the joint very far.  If it were the seal leaking cold air then the wet would start at the top.

I guess I'm just lucky.

Duane

 

 


 


 

 

 

 


 


 


Alan Leslie
 

And also the water connection to the dishwasher...we had that.

Danny, one thing to bear in mind , it doesn't matter whether or not you've used the washing machine, the pressure water is still connected to it. Same with the dishwasher, but I seem to remember you don't have that?

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Alan, yes we don't have the dishwasher, a second fridge replaced that space. However the plumbing is still there and I will check the clothes washer plumbing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean pearl

On 18 January 2019 at 13:07 "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

And also the water connection to the dishwasher...we had that.


Danny, one thing to bear in mind , it doesn't matter whether or not you've used the washing machine, the pressure water is still connected to it. Same with the dishwasher, but I seem to remember you don't have that?

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437