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[Amel Yacht Owners] Re: AGM battery equalisation

 

Paul,

I agree with Alan. Start shopping for batteries. Actively cruising battery lifetimes are normally between 3 and 4 years.

Best,

Bill Rouse
Amel School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 9:20 AM greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

I agree with Alan, a difference in voltage of 0.4 indicates a serious imbalance on the batteries pairs.  Normal AGM batteries are especially sensitive to chronic undercharging, and the batteries that are at 12.3 volts likely haven't been brought up to full charge for a while.


Bill Kinney

ya_fohi
 

First, many thanks for all your advice, it is much appreciated. I have 6 pairs for my 24v system. The pairs and voltages, after being fully charged (i.e. drawing 1A) and left disconnected for 12 hours, are as follows:

12.7 12.6 12.5 12.5 12.6 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.7 12.3

(I did that in two separate lots of 6 each so as to maintain power to the boat)

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean balancing out the voltages. What do you think I should do with the one at 12.3v? Get rid of it, or pair it up with something else?

Understood about 3-4 year expected life although I was hoping it may be a bit longer!

Cheers,
Paul

 

Paul,

I believe that the 12.3 battery has failed. The 12.5 batteries are nearing the same point, with probably less than 1 year. 

I would disconnect the pair that has the 12.3 and move things so that one of the 12.5 batteries is also disconnected. In other words, 1 pair of the worst batteries are disconnected from the bank. Then I would start looking for the best place to buy and replace all of the batteries. I am going to guess that you should do this within about 6-8 months.

I am sure that you will find some owner that gets longer than 4 years life, but I will assure you he is not discharging his batteries at anchor as you are. I met a guy in Turkey who according to him got 12 years life from his batteries. Within 5 minutes of leaving the marina, they failed.😀

Best,

Bill Rouse
Amel School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:32 AM sharongbrown@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

First, many thanks for all your advice, it is much appreciated. I have 6 pairs for my 24v system. The pairs and voltages, after being fully charged (i.e. drawing 1A) and left disconnected for 12 hours, are as follows:

12.7 12.6 12.5 12.5 12.6 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.7 12.3

(I did that in two separate lots of 6 each so as to maintain power to the boat)

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean balancing out the voltages. What do you think I should do with the one at 12.3v? Get rid of it, or pair it up with something else?

Understood about 3-4 year expected life although I was hoping it may be a bit longer!

Cheers,
Paul

Jay Perry
 

Batteries from time to time should be equalized and most battery chargers can do this.
Another way to stop the need for this so often is to have every battery in a bank connected with the same thickness and length of cable to the charger cable, regardless if the cable need to be that long and connect all to a centralized buzz bar. This is to have the same resistance across all the batteries in the same bank.
However as mentioned lead acid, gel, AGM all use acid and have a maximum number of charge cycles. Yet after just 20 to 30 % of the maximum cycles (usually around 1 year) they will be less than 50% efficient at holding charge.
For batteries to last 5 to 10 years you would need to look at alternatives like lithium.

Regards 
Jay Perry

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 19:38, Bill Rouse brouse@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,

I believe that the 12.3 battery has failed. The 12.5 batteries are nearing the same point, with probably less than 1 year. 

I would disconnect the pair that has the 12.3 and move things so that one of the 12.5 batteries is also disconnected. In other words, 1 pair of the worst batteries are disconnected from the bank. Then I would start looking for the best place to buy and replace all of the batteries. I am going to guess that you should do this within about 6-8 months.

I am sure that you will find some owner that gets longer than 4 years life, but I will assure you he is not discharging his batteries at anchor as you are. I met a guy in Turkey who according to him got 12 years life from his batteries. Within 5 minutes of leaving the marina, they failed.😀

Best,

Bill Rouse
Amel School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970



On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:32 AM sharongbrown@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:
 

First, many thanks for all your advice, it is much appreciated. I have 6 pairs for my 24v system. The pairs and voltages, after being fully charged (i.e. drawing 1A) and left disconnected for 12 hours, are as follows:

12.7 12.6 12.5 12.5 12.6 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.5 12.6 12.7 12.3

(I did that in two separate lots of 6 each so as to maintain power to the boat)

I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean balancing out the voltages. What do you think I should do with the one at 12.3v? Get rid of it, or pair it up with something else?

Understood about 3-4 year expected life although I was hoping it may be a bit longer!

Cheers,
Paul

greatketch@...
 

Paul,

You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

greatketch@...
 

Paul,

You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

Jay Perry
 

Some info here

And here


Also to prolong the life of batteries increase the size of the bank so your daily discharge is a lower percentage of the banks capacity. Example if you use 100ah per day (charge cycle) then you need a power supply of around 500ah so you only use 20% of the total capacity, never running the batteries lower than 80%. 
This is why lead acid type batteries are not as cost effective over time as lithium, as lithium can be drained to 90% so you can use almost all or the amp hours you pay for.

(I’m an election engineer and Chief Technical Officer)

Jay Perry 

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 22:57, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,


You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

ya_fohi
 

Many thanks again for all the replies.

Bill, the article about battery balancing is very interesting and the onward link to the Victron data sheet even more so. This really does seem to be what I'm lacking here, especially as for one of my pairs there is a 4V difference. I will be looking into this.

Cheers,
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

Jay Perry
 

If the budget will allow, change the bank.
I always replace our entire house bank at the same time with the same make, model and capacity batteries. Can be expensive as we are currently using Victron Energy Gel at €300 per battery and we use 4 x 110ah. This does make a difference as Bill mentioned leaving a defective battery in the bank can damage others.

WHUATI - crew


On 11 Feb 2019, at 02:29, sharongbrown@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Many thanks again for all the replies.

Bill, the article about battery balancing is very interesting and the onward link to the Victron data sheet even more so. This really does seem to be what I'm lacking here, especially as for one of my pairs there is a 4V difference. I will be looking into this.

Cheers,
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

hanspeter baettig
 

Hi Jay Perry
its always interesting following the threads about batteries. There are new Amel owners on this forum, I guess 100 % US owners.
Question to you ?
What is an election engineer ?
Thats something only US related ???
Salutations
Hanspeter
Tamango 2
SM 16
Martinique
Port de Plaisance le Marin

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 10.02.2019 um 20:25 schrieb Whuati whuati@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Some info here


And here


Also to prolong the life of batteries increase the size of the bank so your daily discharge is a lower percentage of the banks capacity. Example if you use 100ah per day (charge cycle) then you need a power supply of around 500ah so you only use 20% of the total capacity, never running the batteries lower than 80%. 
This is why lead acid type batteries are not as cost effective over time as lithium, as lithium can be drained to 90% so you can use almost all or the amp hours you pay for.

(I’m an election engineer and Chief Technical Officer)

Jay Perry 

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 22:57, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,


You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL
 

So, Jay, as a self-proclaimed "election engineer" , will you be available for the 2020 US elections? 

(Sorry, couldn't resist .)

Cheers,  Craig SN68


---In amelyachtowners@..., <whuati@...> wrote :

Some info here

And here


Also to prolong the life of batteries increase the size of the bank so your daily discharge is a lower percentage of the banks capacity. Example if you use 100ah per day (charge cycle) then you need a power supply of around 500ah so you only use 20% of the total capacity, never running the batteries lower than 80%. 
This is why lead acid type batteries are not as cost effective over time as lithium, as lithium can be drained to 90% so you can use almost all or the amp hours you pay for.

(I’m an election engineer and Chief Technical Officer)

Jay Perry 

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 22:57, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,


You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

Jay Perry
 

Hanspeter 
Auto text, should be “electronic engineer”
Oh and I’m British, living in Ireland for 20 years, last 3 living onboard.

Jay

WHUATI - crew


On 11 Feb 2019, at 03:11, 'hanspeter.baettig@...' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Jay Perry
its always interesting following the threads about batteries. There are new Amel owners on this forum, I guess 100 % US owners.
Question to you ?
What is an election engineer ?
Thats something only US related ???
Salutations
Hanspeter
Tamango 2
SM 16
Martinique
Port de Plaisance le Marin

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 10.02.2019 um 20:25 schrieb Whuati whuati@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Some info here


And here


Also to prolong the life of batteries increase the size of the bank so your daily discharge is a lower percentage of the banks capacity. Example if you use 100ah per day (charge cycle) then you need a power supply of around 500ah so you only use 20% of the total capacity, never running the batteries lower than 80%. 
This is why lead acid type batteries are not as cost effective over time as lithium, as lithium can be drained to 90% so you can use almost all or the amp hours you pay for.

(I’m an election engineer and Chief Technical Officer)

Jay Perry 

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 22:57, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,


You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas

hanspeter baettig
 

😂

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 11.02.2019 um 03:05 schrieb Whuati whuati@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Hanspeter 

Auto text, should be “electronic engineer”
Oh and I’m British, living in Ireland for 20 years, last 3 living onboard.

Jay

WHUATI - crew


On 11 Feb 2019, at 03:11, 'hanspeter.baettig@...' hanspeter.baettig@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Hi Jay Perry
its always interesting following the threads about batteries. There are new Amel owners on this forum, I guess 100 % US owners.
Question to you ?
What is an election engineer ?
Thats something only US related ???
Salutations
Hanspeter
Tamango 2
SM 16
Martinique
Port de Plaisance le Marin

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 10.02.2019 um 20:25 schrieb Whuati whuati@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>:

 

Some info here


And here


Also to prolong the life of batteries increase the size of the bank so your daily discharge is a lower percentage of the banks capacity. Example if you use 100ah per day (charge cycle) then you need a power supply of around 500ah so you only use 20% of the total capacity, never running the batteries lower than 80%. 
This is why lead acid type batteries are not as cost effective over time as lithium, as lithium can be drained to 90% so you can use almost all or the amp hours you pay for.

(I’m an election engineer and Chief Technical Officer)

Jay Perry 

WHUATI - crew


On 10 Feb 2019, at 22:57, greatketch@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Paul,


You might find some useful information about balancing batteries and why it is especially important for AGM's and GEL's here:  Battery Connections and Balancing

4 years is a good life span for flooded batteries, not bad (but not great) for AGMs.

AGM's are great batteries, but they are in some way more sensitive than flooded. If they are not brought up to full charge--often--they suffer.  Our AGM's lasted about 6.5 years, and were still OK, but we needed the reliability of a new bank so we upgraded them.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Georgetown, Bahamas