Topics

Bow locker floor replacement.....


Thomas Kleman
 

On SM2K #422 (SV L'ORIENT) the bow locker floors have degraded and need replacement. I'm taking this on in the next two weeks and have pirated design ideas from Mark on Cream Puff, Bill Kinney and others (thanks in advance). I do have one pressing question as I finalize my materials.

I bought L'ORIENT in 2010, when she was 6 years old. The hawse pipe (galvanized steel, I believe) was already very severely corroded, which contributed to the floor damage I have now. I've faithfully adhered to the advice of folks in this group to keep my boat "an Amel", and have resisted doing anything that runs counter to that ethic from a maintenance perspective.

However, in the case of the galvanized steel hawse pipe, there is the well known invocation from Einstein that only an idiot repeats an experiment and expects a different result. I'm reluctant to replace my corroded hawse pipe with an exact replica, which I imagine began failing almost immediately after the boat was built. Has anyone used any other material for this conduit with success ? With the wide variety of super-plastics available, I was curious if someone had experimented with a solution like this, and what the result was. If I'm persuaded to use galvanized steel again, I plan on- at a minimum- installing it with flanges at each terminus to enable easy replacement, as I fear this will be necessary again.

Thomas Kleman
SV L'ORIENT
Colon, Panama


Craig Briggs
 

Hello Thomas,
I replaced my hawse pipe with Schedule 80 PVC pipe 3 or 4 years ago (you can search my posts and find more detail.)  Schedule 80 is a little thicker than Schedule 40 and so far it is perfect - no visible wear after - just guessing - 100 anchorings. It was not available at the usual "big box' stores like Home Depot or Lowes, but I found it at a lawn sprinkler supplier. An option might be the grey PVC electrical conduit which is easy to find and inexpensive. Frankly, I would not hesitate to use Schedule 40 - it is all pretty tough stuff and it would not be a big job to replace after a few years if it were to wear. It is totally compatible with polyester resin and fiberglass to fasten it in to your locker floor replacement panels. 
Craig SN68 Sangaris.
  


Warren Traill
 

Thanks Craig. We have to replace our hawse pipe too. Good information. What diameter of PVC did you use?

And could you possibly put up a photo of your finished job?

Cheers,

Warren

Manon2

Sharki#15

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 9:48 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Hello Thomas,
I replaced my hawse pipe with Schedule 80 PVC pipe 3 or 4 years ago (you can search my posts and find more detail.)  Schedule 80 is a little thicker than Schedule 40 and so far it is perfect - no visible wear after - just guessing - 100 anchorings. It was not available at the usual "big box' stores like Home Depot or Lowes, but I found it at a lawn sprinkler supplier. An option might be the grey PVC electrical conduit which is easy to find and inexpensive. Frankly, I would not hesitate to use Schedule 40 - it is all pretty tough stuff and it would not be a big job to replace after a few years if it were to wear. It is totally compatible with polyester resin and fiberglass to fasten it in to your locker floor replacement panels. 
Craig SN68 Sangaris.
  


Mark Erdos
 

If memory serves me correctly, I recall PVC not being totally compatible to fiberglass resins and epoxies. I would suggest structural fiberglass tubing as an option.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Santa Marta, Colombia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Warren Traill
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 11:46 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Thanks Craig. We have to replace our hawse pipe too. Good information. What diameter of PVC did you use?

And could you possibly put up a photo of your finished job?

Cheers,

Warren

Manon2

Sharki#15

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 9:48 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Hello Thomas,
I replaced my hawse pipe with Schedule 80 PVC pipe 3 or 4 years ago (you can search my posts and find more detail.)  Schedule 80 is a little thicker than Schedule 40 and so far it is perfect - no visible wear after - just guessing - 100 anchorings. It was not available at the usual "big box' stores like Home Depot or Lowes, but I found it at a lawn sprinkler supplier. An option might be the grey PVC electrical conduit which is easy to find and inexpensive. Frankly, I would not hesitate to use Schedule 40 - it is all pretty tough stuff and it would not be a big job to replace after a few years if it were to wear. It is totally compatible with polyester resin and fiberglass to fasten it in to your locker floor replacement panels. 
Craig SN68 Sangaris.
  


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

Thomas,

PVC is one good choice, another is fiberglass. There is FRP tubing available, and some supplies will sell short pieces cut to length. The advantage of it over PVC is that it can be glassed in easily. Neither epoxy nor polyester resins will reliably stick to PVC, but would bond well with FRP tube. In the unlikely event the chain ever wore through it, it would be easy to patch. 

Both would be long lasting. You selection might depend on your method of securing it. 

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Mayaguana, Bahamas 


Beaute Olivier
 

Hello Thomas, Mark, Bill, Warren, and all happy Amel owners,

PVC can be difficult to glass with polyester or epoxy if not correctly prepared. The best way is to sand the place where the GRP will be applied, and degrease it with aceton.
Replacing the hawse pipe with PVC or other stiff plastic materials is OK. The only worry indeed is the chain wear inside the tube, so, you should opt for a thick one.

There are in fact two master pieces (and several minor pieces) of PVC tubes in your Amel boats, bonded with the hull and deck, and that I never heard of in terms of weakness or delamination. I let you guess what these pieces are.

Answer tomorrow.

Olivier.

On Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 1:40:59 PM GMT+1, Bill Kinney via Groups.Io <greatketch@...> wrote:


Thomas,

PVC is one good choice, another is fiberglass. There is FRP tubing available, and some supplies will sell short pieces cut to length. The advantage of it over PVC is that it can be glassed in easily. Neither epoxy nor polyester resins will reliably stick to PVC, but would bond well with FRP tube. In the unlikely event the chain ever wore through it, it would be easy to patch. 

Both would be long lasting. You selection might depend on your method of securing it. 

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Mayaguana, Bahamas 


Craig Briggs
 

Olivier,
That sounds like a fun challenge question - here are my guesses:
1. the pipe down the port side for the steering cables
2. starboard from nav station to aft locker for SSB cables
3. starboard from forward hanging locker to nav station for sonic speed, depth and wind cables
4. in the overhead from galley to mast/boom etc. electrics above head.
5. down aft side of nav station, across floor at bulkhead to engine room for various cables
6. from port seat lazarette to galley for the line that locks the seat cover
7. inside port bow locker up high for running light wires
I'm sure I missed a few!
Cheers, Craig


 

Craig,

You might have missed a few, but you named one that I never noticed. AND, I can't say for sure that you missed anything.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 8:42 AM Craig Briggs via Groups.Io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Olivier,
That sounds like a fun challenge question - here are my guesses:
1. the pipe down the port side for the steering cables
2. starboard from nav station to aft locker for SSB cables
3. starboard from forward hanging locker to nav station for sonic speed, depth and wind cables
4. in the overhead from galley to mast/boom etc. electrics above head.
5. down aft side of nav station, across floor at bulkhead to engine room for various cables
6. from port seat lazarette to galley for the line that locks the seat cover
7. inside port bow locker up high for running light wires
I'm sure I missed a few!
Cheers, Craig


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Warren,
Sorry, I don't recall the exact diameter but it was essentially the same as the original, to the closest US size I could find. It's not too critical since you're glassing in the new one so there's wiggle room. I only took "gee whiz" pictures of the old rotted out tube, but a picture of the finished job may not be very informative since it looks just like the old one (before it rusted out :-)
Best, Craig SN68 Sangaris


Thomas Kleman
 

I'm not planning on glassing the pipe in place as I want the ability to remove it easily. I will use two end flanges; one below the windlass under the deck and one below the floor of the bow locker. That holds it in place and allows removal by taking off the bottom flange.

Had it been installed that way originally I probably wouldn't have this problem. I'm making my access door in the floor of the port bow locker right next to the pipe so I can reach the flange if necessary.


Bill Kinney <greatketch@...>
 

And a pvc conduit for wiring from fore to aft in the cockpit locker...

And the air intake to the engine room. 

And...  ?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Mayaguana, Bahamas


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Tom,
Does your hawse pipe run vertically or is it slanted like mine on my Santorin? On mine a standard 90° flange wouldn't work.  Also, even with an access door, working on the underside of the bow locker floor is brutal - why not just put it on top, or, easier yet, just caulk (or glass in a fillet) on the top of the floor?
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


Warren Traill
 

Thanks Craig.

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 11:55 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Hi Warren,
Sorry, I don't recall the exact diameter but it was essentially the same as the original, to the closest US size I could find. It's not too critical since you're glassing in the new one so there's wiggle room. I only took "gee whiz" pictures of the old rotted out tube, but a picture of the finished job may not be very informative since it looks just like the old one (before it rusted out :-)
Best, Craig SN68 Sangaris


Beaute Olivier
 

Hi everybody,

the two master pieces made of PVC tube glassed to the hull and deck are the cockpit drains. These pipes are in fact glassed with GRP on their whole outside surface, and then glassed with the hull and deck. No need to mention that they really need to be watertight and resistant to a shock. If you hit them with your hand, you will feel that they are strong.

There are other glassed PVC tubes in critical places such as the air vent pipe of the bow-thruster box and the one inside the dorade box of the engine room air exhaust circuit (they need to be watertight). 

The hawse pipe needs to be watertight too, and there is nothing like a glassing to do it right. However, the hawse pipe surroundings remain a wet area, and the possible damages from a leaking hawse pipe will not be very serious, except that it may bring water into the plywood floor, which will rot in the long run (as you all know).

Good luck Thomas.

Olivier



On Thursday, March 7, 2019, 1:09:20 AM GMT+1, Warren Traill <trailz@...> wrote:


Thanks Craig.

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 11:55 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Hi Warren,
Sorry, I don't recall the exact diameter but it was essentially the same as the original, to the closest US size I could find. It's not too critical since you're glassing in the new one so there's wiggle room. I only took "gee whiz" pictures of the old rotted out tube, but a picture of the finished job may not be very informative since it looks just like the old one (before it rusted out :-)
Best, Craig SN68 Sangaris


Craig Briggs
 

OF COURSE !!!!    DUH !!!! WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT!!!!!
Great quiz, Olivier, with the most obvious answer that none of us came up with!

Cheers, Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


Thomas Kleman
 
Edited

Craig- my upper flange will be water-tight and glued/glassed to the underside of the deck under the windlass. It fits tightly inside the pipe; thus a water-tight joint unless water can flow upwards. The pipe will run through the locker floor (which will be glassed both sides) and have a flange underneath the floor which it enters. The flange is slightly lower than the glassed floor. The area around the flange under the floor will be waterproof. 

I haven't started the project yet (tomorrow) but at this point I see no need to glass the outside of a thick piece of pvc which I might need to replace someday. It would not impact waterproofing unless the pipe wore through, thus validating my design criteria that ease of replacement is important.


James Alton
 

Oliver,

   Thank you for taking the time to add your wisdom to the discussion.  I am very happy with the  heavily glassed fibreglass tubes in my boat such as the cockpit drains.  It is so nice that by making the drains essentially as strong as the hull that there is no need for the complication of valves,  hoses, clamps and the normal type connections.

   The chain pipe on Sueno also appears to be heavily glassed and very strong.  I can imagine that in the case of a chain ball or some other snag that suddenly stopped a rapid chain deployment that the forces could be very high on the locker floor.  A strong chain pipe could serve as a compression member to transfer the loads to the underside of the deck, great engineering IMO.  I agree with the original Amel design in making all of these critical tubes strong and if I ever have to rebuild my chain locker, I will certainly restore the original amount of strength or more.   

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 7, 2019, at 6:11 AM, Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io <atlanticyachtsurvey@...> wrote:

Hi everybody,

the two master pieces made of PVC tube glassed to the hull and deck are the cockpit drains. These pipes are in fact glassed with GRP on their whole outside surface, and then glassed with the hull and deck. No need to mention that they really need to be watertight and resistant to a shock. If you hit them with your hand, you will feel that they are strong.

There are other glassed PVC tubes in critical places such as the air vent pipe of the bow-thruster box and the one inside the dorade box of the engine room air exhaust circuit (they need to be watertight). 

The hawse pipe needs to be watertight too, and there is nothing like a glassing to do it right. However, the hawse pipe surroundings remain a wet area, and the possible damages from a leaking hawse pipe will not be very serious, except that it may bring water into the plywood floor, which will rot in the long run (as you all know).

Good luck Thomas.

Olivier



On Thursday, March 7, 2019, 1:09:20 AM GMT+1, Warren Traill <trailz@...> wrote:


Thanks Craig. 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Briggs via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, 6 March 2019 11:55 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bow locker floor replacement.....

 

Hi Warren,
Sorry, I don't recall the exact diameter but it was essentially the same as the original, to the closest US size I could find. It's not too critical since you're glassing in the new one so there's wiggle room. I only took "gee whiz" pictures of the old rotted out tube, but a picture of the finished job may not be very informative since it looks just like the old one (before it rusted out :-)
Best, Craig SN68 Sangaris 




James Alton
 

Thomas,
Your post about making replacement of the PVC tube very easy got me to thinking about how this could be done.  What if instead of planning to replace the PVC tube, a simple sacrificial flanged plastic bushing was made to fit into the PVC pipe on the bottom face of the anchor locker?  Since the bushing would have a  smaller ID than the PVC it would take all of the side loads and eliminate essentially all of the wear on the PVC pipe?  It might be good to make the ID of the PCV tube a little larger to allow for the hole in the sacrificial bushing to be of sufficient size.  I believe that the base hole in the windlass is already serving the function of the bushing at the top so only a bushing at the bottom would be needed.  Perhaps the bushing could be made to screw in place to eliminate having to install many fasteners in that difficult area to work?  

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 7, 2019, at 11:01 AM, Thomas Kleman <lorient422@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Craig- my upper flange will be water-tight and glued/glassed to the underside of the deck under the windlass. It fits tightly inside the pipe; thus a water-tight joint unless water can flow upwards. The pipe will run through the locker floor (which will be glassed both sides) and have a flange underneath the floor which it enters. The flange is slightly lower than the glassed floor. The area around the flange under the floor will be waterproof. 

I haven't started the project yet (tomorrow) but at this point I see no need to glass the outside of a thick piece of pvc which I might need to replace someday. It would not impact waterproofing unless the pipe wore through, thus validating my design criteria that ease of replacement is important.


Thomas Kleman
 

James- I like your idea, although it sends me on a 45 minute bone jarring cab ride here in Colon, Panama to a ferreteria. Would you make it out of pvc or something else ?


James Alton
 

Thomas,

     PVC could work but I was envisioning using a more slippery plastic than PVC for the sacrificial plastic bushing.  Perhaps Nylon?  I would suggest shaping the part without any square edges for the chain to catch on with a good size flange that would rest on the bottom face of the anchor locker.  It may be difficult to find anything that fits the ID of your PVC pipe since things are generally sized to fit the outside of PVC pipe, hence this would probably be a custom part turned on a lathe.  The good news is that you could probably install the bushing at a later date giving you time to find or have something made and shipped to you which  could save you that bone jarring ride.  

Best of luck,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 8, 2019, at 7:02 AM, Thomas Kleman <lorient422@...> wrote:

James- I like your idea, although it sends me on a 45 minute bone jarring cab ride here in Colon, Panama to a ferreteria. Would you make it out of pvc or something else ?