Topics

Hawse Pipe Replacement

Gary Silver
 

I have created this new thread to carry on the topic of "Hawse Pipe Replacement" that was started in the thread "Bow Locker Floor Replacement".  In that thread multiple folks have indicated that they have replaced, or are about to replace, their hawse pipe due to corrosion of the original galvanized pipe.  Over the years I have only seen a hand full of areas where Amel "got it wrong" and the floor of the bow lazarettos and using galvanized pipe (instead of stainless steel or some more durable material) for the hawse pipe are two. 

This topic is timely for me as I was just considering this project myself (having previously dealt with the floor issue).  The suggested materials so far are:

Schedule 40 PVC  or better yet Schedule 80 PVC pipe.
FRP pipe.

I had anticipated having a 316L stainless steel pipe fabricated with a flange at the top and bottom.  Other than cost, any thoughts on that idea?   It appears to me that the original pipe simply passed through the lazarette floor (no flange) and had a "tab" welded at the top, then was glassed in place.  Correct?

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335
Puerto Rico

James Alton
 

Gary,

   Perhaps Amel felt that the galvanized hawse would be less likely to corrode the chain due to dissimilar metals?  As long as the hawse had zinc left on it, it would help to protect the steel in the chain.   The fibreglass pipe idea is interesting to me since it could be made strong and would never corrode.   Eliminating the joint between the hawse and the fibreglass on the locker panels joints would be a good thing by keeping water from getting into the plywood at the hawse hole in the event that the caulking failed. The one problem is that fibreglass is not very resistant to chafe and in wearing the pipe down you will have some fibreglass fibers floating around...  I am thinking of using the fibreglass pipe idea but adding a replaceable plastic liner.  I am thinking of using a more slippery plastic than PVC but it sounds like it it working out well for some and would be a simple solution.  I am sure that you could also fashion a new hawse from 316 stainless that would wear well without a liner.  Lots of good ideas on the forum.
Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
 

On Mar 6, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

I have created this new thread to carry on the topic of "Hawse Pipe Replacement" that was started in the thread "Bow Locker Floor Replacement".  In that thread multiple folks have indicated that they have replaced, or are about to replace, their hawse pipe due to corrosion of the original galvanized pipe.  Over the years I have only seen a hand full of areas where Amel "got it wrong" and the floor of the bow lazarettos and using galvanized pipe (instead of stainless steel or some more durable material) for the hawse pipe are two. 

This topic is timely for me as I was just considering this project myself (having previously dealt with the floor issue).  The suggested materials so far are:

Schedule 40 PVC  or better yet Schedule 80 PVC pipe.
FRP pipe.

I had anticipated having a 316L stainless steel pipe fabricated with a flange at the top and bottom.  Other than cost, any thoughts on that idea?   It appears to me that the original pipe simply passed through the lazarette floor (no flange) and had a "tab" welded at the top, then was glassed in place.  Correct?

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335
Puerto Rico

amel46met
 

The Tab at the top of my galvanized hawse pipe had one of the windlass bolts thru it and encased in fiberglass before it rusted away. I still have to replace the pipe and some of the floor.
Tom Deasy 
S/Y Aphrodite 
Maramu 125


On Mar 6, 2019, at 1:44 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Gary,

   Perhaps Amel felt that the galvanized hawse would be less likely to corrode the chain due to dissimilar metals?  As long as the hawse had zinc left on it, it would help to protect the steel in the chain.   The fibreglass pipe idea is interesting to me since it could be made strong and would never corrode.   Eliminating the joint between the hawse and the fibreglass on the locker panels joints would be a good thing by keeping water from getting into the plywood at the hawse hole in the event that the caulking failed. The one problem is that fibreglass is not very resistant to chafe and in wearing the pipe down you will have some fibreglass fibers floating around...  I am thinking of using the fibreglass pipe idea but adding a replaceable plastic liner.  I am thinking of using a more slippery plastic than PVC but it sounds like it it working out well for some and would be a simple solution.  I am sure that you could also fashion a new hawse from 316 stainless that would wear well without a liner.  Lots of good ideas on the forum.
Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
 
On Mar 6, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

I have created this new thread to carry on the topic of "Hawse Pipe Replacement" that was started in the thread "Bow Locker Floor Replacement".  In that thread multiple folks have indicated that they have replaced, or are about to replace, their hawse pipe due to corrosion of the original galvanized pipe.  Over the years I have only seen a hand full of areas where Amel "got it wrong" and the floor of the bow lazarettos and using galvanized pipe (instead of stainless steel or some more durable material) for the hawse pipe are two. 

This topic is timely for me as I was just considering this project myself (having previously dealt with the floor issue).  The suggested materials so far are:

Schedule 40 PVC  or better yet Schedule 80 PVC pipe.
FRP pipe.

I had anticipated having a 316L stainless steel pipe fabricated with a flange at the top and bottom.  Other than cost, any thoughts on that idea?   It appears to me that the original pipe simply passed through the lazarette floor (no flange) and had a "tab" welded at the top, then was glassed in place.  Correct?

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335
Puerto Rico

Craig & Katherine Briggs
 

Gary,
On my Santorin the original pipe didn't have a tab on top. The pipe end was cut at an angle to be flush with the underside of the deck and simply glassed to the bottom of the deck with a fillet. It was, indeed, just stubbed about an inch below the deck locker floor with a glass filtet on top of the floor to seal it - nothing on the underside. Flanges will be really tricky because (on the Santorin) the pipe angles forward toward the bow as it goes down from the windlass so you'd have to get the flange angles just right. I should think just fiberglass fillets top and bottom, like Amel's original would do the trick.  I plugged up the hawse hole and top of the pipe with some rags inside some plastic wrap to keep resin and filet material from seeping down the inside of the pipe.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris

Dan Wilcox
 

Hearing how the bolt went through a tab on the pipe, could the explanation be that the galvanized pipe provide extra rigidity to reduce the deck from flexing when the windless was pulling up an anchor?

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM#86

On Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 2:25:31 PM PST, Craig Briggs via Groups.Io <sangaris@...> wrote:


Gary,
On my Santorin the original pipe didn't have a tab on top. The pipe end was cut at an angle to be flush with the underside of the deck and simply glassed to the bottom of the deck with a fillet. It was, indeed, just stubbed about an inch below the deck locker floor with a glass filtet on top of the floor to seal it - nothing on the underside. Flanges will be really tricky because (on the Santorin) the pipe angles forward toward the bow as it goes down from the windlass so you'd have to get the flange angles just right. I should think just fiberglass fillets top and bottom, like Amel's original would do the trick.  I plugged up the hawse hole and top of the pipe with some rags inside some plastic wrap to keep resin and filet material from seeping down the inside of the pipe.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Yes Dan it most certainly does. I had to remove my windlass at one stage and that bolt sheered off. I put the windlass back in place (temporarily) without that bolt and it very noticeably flexed the deck in use. I drilled the stud out and replaced it with a through bolt. That flange is essential.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 07 March 2019 at 11:29 "Dan Wilcox via Groups.Io" <dwilcox123@...> wrote:

 
Hearing how the bolt went through a tab on the pipe, could the explanation be that the galvanized pipe provide extra rigidity to reduce the deck from flexing when the windless was pulling up an anchor?

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM#86

On Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 2:25:31 PM PST, Craig Briggs via Groups.Io <sangaris@...> wrote:


Gary,
On my Santorin the original pipe didn't have a tab on top. The pipe end was cut at an angle to be flush with the underside of the deck and simply glassed to the bottom of the deck with a fillet. It was, indeed, just stubbed about an inch below the deck locker floor with a glass filtet on top of the floor to seal it - nothing on the underside. Flanges will be really tricky because (on the Santorin) the pipe angles forward toward the bow as it goes down from the windlass so you'd have to get the flange angles just right. I should think just fiberglass fillets top and bottom, like Amel's original would do the trick.  I plugged up the hawse hole and top of the pipe with some rags inside some plastic wrap to keep resin and filet material from seeping down the inside of the pipe.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris


 


 

svcharisma
 

Gary,
thank you for starting this thread.  I am also getting ready to take on this project.  I am interested to hear if anyone has actually done this yet and what the results have been.  I do have to say that my galvanized pipe lasted for 30 years.  Replacing it in kind is also a possible option.

Alan Spence
Mango #62

Gary Silver
 

Hi Alan: 

I am surprised to hear of number of boats affected.  It seems this is a common failure mode.  I have not done mine. I only discovered the problem when I spent a couple of days inside both of my forward lockers (lazarettes) doing the repairs on their floors.  Really not that bad of a job with a tyvek suit and full face respirator.  Prior to that I had never looked up, to the underside of the locker "ceiling" but I found the FRP "collar" at the top of the pipe split due to the pressure of the underlying rust.  Since I had my angle grinder in hand I ground enough FRP away to see the extensive rust of the pipe and flange.  I couldn't see any evidence of water intrusion, like salt crystals etc, and I am at a bit of a loss as to why this rusted so badly.  I will definitely do a non-rusting repair.  I don't believe this hawse pipe was structural in any way since there is only a single tab at the top and nothing tying it to the floor except the lower FRP collar. We all know that the floor of these lockers are under engineered for the loads imposed in pounding seas (e.g. tabbed only on the top so that loads tend to delaminate the plywood and un-protected from below from the moisture of the chain locker resulting in rot of the wood). 

I just don't see the need to place anything made of mild steel (galvanized or not) on an ocean going boat.  Like most of these things the cost of the materials is minuscule compared to the labor and grief involved in re-dos. Just my two cent worth. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi All,

I am taking the very unusual step of repeating my recent information. On SM 299 the steel hawse pipe and its upper flange are an integral part of securing the anchor winch through the bolt that goes through the flange. Without repeating the detail, I was minus that bolt for a short period and there was significant  and unacceptable flexing of the deck when the winch was in use hauling the anchor. So unless your model has another method of stiffening the deck I would counsel  any replacement should include awareness of this.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 March 2019 at 07:15 "Gary Silver via Groups.Io" <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Alan: 

I am surprised to hear of number of boats affected.  It seems this is a common failure mode.  I have not done mine. I only discovered the problem when I spent a couple of days inside both of my forward lockers (lazarettes) doing the repairs on their floors.  Really not that bad of a job with a tyvek suit and full face respirator.  Prior to that I had never looked up, to the underside of the locker "ceiling" but I found the FRP "collar" at the top of the pipe split due to the pressure of the underlying rust.  Since I had my angle grinder in hand I ground enough FRP away to see the extensive rust of the pipe and flange.  I couldn't see any evidence of water intrusion, like salt crystals etc, and I am at a bit of a loss as to why this rusted so badly.  I will definitely do a non-rusting repair.  I don't believe this hawse pipe was structural in any way since there is only a single tab at the top and nothing tying it to the floor except the lower FRP collar. We all know that the floor of these lockers are under engineered for the loads imposed in pounding seas (e.g. tabbed only on the top so that loads tend to delaminate the plywood and un-protected from below from the moisture of the chain locker resulting in rot of the wood). 

I just don't see the need to place anything made of mild steel (galvanized or not) on an ocean going boat.  Like most of these things the cost of the materials is minuscule compared to the labor and grief involved in re-dos. Just my two cent worth. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335

Gary Silver
 

Hi Danny:

Thanks for that re-iteration.  Can you describe in more detail where the deck was flexing?  Was it just at the bolt location or over a wider area?  The deck is stiffened also by the vertical fore-aft wall between the port and starboard sides.   Was the tab on the hawse pipe acting merely as a backing plate or was it the fiberglass collar with the hawse pipe as an assemblage that provided stiffening. 

I remember years ago Joel warned against attaching an inner forestay to the cleat on the winch or to the decking in that area without carrying the loads down to tougher structure.  

Thanks for any additional insight you might provide. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona 
Amel SM 2000 #335

Craig & Katherine Briggs
 

Hi Alan,
Per earlier post in this thread, I did this with PVC, no flanges (as the original had none), just glassed in with good fillets on underside of deck and top of locker floor. Perfect for 3 years, now.
My galvanized pipe started rusting out after, I'd guess, 20 years, but we anchored probably 2000-ish different times times.
Craig Briggs, SN68 Sangaris

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Gary et al,

The bolt in question is the starboard aft position. Without it in place and the winch loaded up the whole winch moved so it isn't a question of where was the deck flexing. The body of the winch, without that bolt was bring pulled to lean forward. It was particularly noticeable when breaking the anchor free. I have no reason to believe there was any other cause and I noted once again the Captains attention to detail in not relying on a GRP deck but adding the certain strength of the bolt through the flange onto the hawse pipe. With that bolt in place movement is NIL and has been so for many years. So again I commend caution and attention to this detail when choosing a repair system. The load on the anchor winch can at times be considerable, we are not always anchored in calm water on a clean bottom with little wind.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl


With On 08 March 2019 at 08:07 "Gary Silver via Groups.Io" <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Danny:

Thanks for that re-iteration.  Can you describe in more detail where the deck was flexing?  Was it just at the bolt location or over a wider area?  The deck is stiffened also by the vertical fore-aft wall between the port and starboard sides.   Was the tab on the hawse pipe acting merely as a backing plate or was it the fiberglass collar with the hawse pipe as an assemblage that provided stiffening. 

I remember years ago Joel warned against attaching an inner forestay to the cleat on the winch or to the decking in that area without carrying the loads down to tougher structure.  

Thanks for any additional insight you might provide. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona 
Amel SM 2000 #335

Gary Silver
 

I did think of one reason to use plastic/PVC/FRP for the hawse pipe; at night in a rolling anchorage you won't be as likely to hear the clanking of the anchor chain in the hawse pipe. ;-)

Gary

David Wallace
 

I'm late to this topic but following Craig's lead also replaced the hawse pipe with a pvc tube. When I cut out the remains of the corroded original part I still had 1-2” of perfectly good pipe on the top and bottom. So I cut the pvc to fit the gap as close as possible and then used a PVC DWV Mechanical Coupling (Home Depot) at each end to hold the tube in place and provide a watertight seal. As far as I can determine, I have no issue with windlass movement but will certainly keep checking for that.

Dave Wallace
s/v Air Ops
Maramu 104
Sea of Cortez


On Mar 7, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Gary et al,

The bolt in question is the starboard aft position. Without it in place and the winch loaded up the whole winch moved so it isn't a question of where was the deck flexing. The body of the winch, without that bolt was bring pulled to lean forward. It was particularly noticeable when breaking the anchor free. I have no reason to believe there was any other cause and I noted once again the Captains attention to detail in not relying on a GRP deck but adding the certain strength of the bolt through the flange onto the hawse pipe. With that bolt in place movement is NIL and has been so for many years. So again I commend caution and attention to this detail when choosing a repair system. The load on the anchor winch can at times be considerable, we are not always anchored in calm water on a clean bottom with little wind.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl


With On 08 March 2019 at 08:07 "Gary Silver via Groups.Io" <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Danny:

Thanks for that re-iteration.  Can you describe in more detail where the deck was flexing?  Was it just at the bolt location or over a wider area?  The deck is stiffened also by the vertical fore-aft wall between the port and starboard sides.   Was the tab on the hawse pipe acting merely as a backing plate or was it the fiberglass collar with the hawse pipe as an assemblage that provided stiffening. 

I remember years ago Joel warned against attaching an inner forestay to the cleat on the winch or to the decking in that area without carrying the loads down to tougher structure.  

Thanks for any additional insight you might provide. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona 
Amel SM 2000 #335

Thomas Kleman
 

Took the old hawse pipe out today. First removed the back starboard windlass bolt. Not easy. The flange was totally rusted out. Then, after getting all my big tools out, the hawse pipe was removed by just my grabbing it and pulling. I'm going to put a stainless steel plate back for the bolt to fit into to make it stronger; my PVC flange will fit around it, and I'm not glassing over my bolt/plate.

Mark Erdos
 

Tom, It may help others who haven’t had the chance of sharing  in the joy of doing this yet to have some pictures posted as you progress. This could be put into the files section. I know you have nothing going on right now J

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Santa Marta, Colombia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Thomas Kleman
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 2019 6:19 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Hawse Pipe Replacement

 

Took the old hawse pipe out today. First removed the back starboard windlass bolt. Not easy. The flange was totally rusted out. Then, after getting all my big tools out, the hawse pipe was removed by just my grabbing it and pulling. I'm going to put a stainless steel plate back for the bolt to fit into to make it stronger; my PVC flange will fit around it, and I'm not glassing over my bolt/plate.

Gary Silver
 

Thomas, I agree with Mark.  We need pictures!!!   In fact I will create the folder for those pictures in the photos section.  How does this sound:  "Repairs - Hawse Pipe Replacement"  or something to that effect, (we can change the title if you like). 

All the best with the job.  Keep on keeping us posted. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico

Thomas Kleman
 

Mark, others- I will send pics but just remember that my paper hooded anti-fiberglass flight suit easily puts 15-20 lbs on you, similar to TV.

I told the neighbors here in shelter bay marina that my forward torpedo doors we're sticking, then didn't smile and jumped into the chain locker again.

Thomas Kleman 
SV L'ORIENT
Shelter Bay Marina, Colon

Thomas Kleman
 

Thanks to Mark for agreeing to post some pics for me. Today I installed my epoxy resin hawse pipe header/fillet under the windlass. The throat fits in my 4 inch PVC pipe, and it has a wide fillet for the back starboard windlass bolt, which now needs to be longer due to the 10 mm height of the fillet. It's held by 7 screws and half a tube of 5200, as well as the windlass bolt. The residual glassing from the original Amel hawse pipe made it difficult to get the mounting site perfectly flat; the windlass wires complicate getting a grinder in there. Eventually a wood chisel did the trick.

Since my crafter side is activated now, I'm going to make an epoxy resin sacrificial insert for the pcv pipe mounted where it exits the floor to help it last a bit longer.