Topics

Earth bonding and watermaker


Arno Luijten
 

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


 

Arno,

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

I hope this explanation helps. 

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Bill,

I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.

Good bonding connections????

How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.

Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?

Kind regards

Nick 


S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54

On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Arno,

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

I hope this explanation helps. 

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




 

Nick, 

I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.

I will answer from my experience. 
  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.
image.png

I hope that this helps.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,

I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.

Good bonding connections????

How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.

Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?

Kind regards

Nick 


S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54
On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Arno,

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

I hope this explanation helps. 

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121




ngtnewington Newington
 

Thanks Bill,

I agree that the really important connection between the C drive and the rudder zincs needs to be 100% and the for example salt water pump for the anchor wash is less of a worry.

When I go back to Amelia in April, she is ashore, I will make up an extension to my multimeter and check for continuity between the zincs on the rudder and various bits and bobs around the boat, before launching. I have no corrosion on the keel or prop or anywhere and I want to keep it that way!!!!

Nick

On 14 Mar 2019, at 17:59, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Nick, 

I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.

I will answer from my experience. 
  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.
<image.png>

I hope that this helps.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,

I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.

Good bonding connections????

How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.

Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?

Kind regards

Nick 


S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54
On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Arno,

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

I hope this explanation helps. 

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121







Arno Luijten
 

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the explanation. You made a good point about the A/C pump. I forgot all about that. So there are actually a few places where the zink “meets” the shore ground. I’m in a marina in St. Martin and connected to the shore power for most of the time. In this position I’ve calculated my anodes to last about 6 months before left at 40% weight and replacement becomes required.
So It seems I’m not playing to be a huge battery in the marina too much.
I will verify if the bonding connection to the watermaker is working as supposed and make sure the leaks are rectified. That is all I can do I think for now.

I did have a nice time taking off the caps of the membrane vessels by the way. In the end I drilled a 3 holes in the side of the caps (120 degrees apart), tapped a thread in it and put a bolt in. I then could use hammer and screwdriver to gently tap out the caps by using the side of the bolt-head as hit point.

Hopefully next week the whole thing will be back on its feet again.

Regards,

Arno
SV Luna,
A54-121


Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hello Arno,

I have the Duo 100 aboard and have had problems with corrosion as well.  It was most noticeable at the small interconnects between the membranes and caused leakage. I discussed this with the engineer who designed these 2 units.

He said the AMEL bonding system was at fault and the corrosion would end if I omitted the grounding connection.  I did this last year and I am pleased with the absence of corrosion.  He also mentioned that the bonding issue had been a problem with AMELs but that AMEL would not modify their POV on the matter.

(In future, if I need to replace my water maker, it will not be Dessalator.  Their after sales service is so SICK that Lagoon catamorons have dropped them.  I feel DESSALATOR is headed to failure)


Jean-Pierre Germain



On 15 Mar 2019, at 01:50, Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


 

JP,

I do not agree with the dessalator engineer. If you consider what he says, I believe you will agree with me. 

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 1:46 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
Hello Arno,

I have the Duo 100 aboard and have had problems with corrosion as well.  It was most noticeable at the small interconnects between the membranes and caused leakage. I discussed this with the engineer who designed these 2 units.

He said the AMEL bonding system was at fault and the corrosion would end if I omitted the grounding connection.  I did this last year and I am pleased with the absence of corrosion.  He also mentioned that the bonding issue had been a problem with AMELs but that AMEL would not modify their POV on the matter.

(In future, if I need to replace my water maker, it will not be Dessalator.  Their after sales service is so SICK that Lagoon catamorons have dropped them.  I feel DESSALATOR is headed to failure)


Jean-Pierre Germain



On 15 Mar 2019, at 01:50, Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi JP and Arno . I have the duo 60, it is bonded and I have no corrosion.

Regards

Danny

S M 299

Ocean Pearl

On 15 March 2019 at 07:46 Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:

Hello Arno,

I have the Duo 100 aboard and have had problems with corrosion as well.  It was most noticeable at the small interconnects between the membranes and caused leakage. I discussed this with the engineer who designed these 2 units.

He said the AMEL bonding system was at fault and the corrosion would end if I omitted the grounding connection.  I did this last year and I am pleased with the absence of corrosion.  He also mentioned that the bonding issue had been a problem with AMELs but that AMEL would not modify their POV on the matter.

(In future, if I need to replace my water maker, it will not be Dessalator.  Their after sales service is so SICK that Lagoon catamorons have dropped them.  I feel DESSALATOR is headed to failure)


Jean-Pierre Germain



On 15 Mar 2019, at 01:50, Arno Luijten < arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


 


 


eric freedman
 

Bill,

You are absolutely correct.

Additionally , if you want to be totally paranoid, tinning the bonding wires at the connections will greatly increase the life of the connection. It will also prevent water from wicking down the wire. I have checked all my connections back to the rudder and they are 100 %.  I think I will take my own advice and tin a lot of the bonding. As you know Kimberlite 1s 16 years old with original wiring and I have only lost the bonding strap to the bilge connection.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker

 

Nick, 

 

I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.

 

I will answer from my experience. 

  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.

image.png

 

I hope that this helps.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Bill,

 

I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.

 

Good bonding connections????

 

How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.

 

Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?

 

Kind regards

 

Nick 

 

 

S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54

On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

 

Arno,

 

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

 

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

 

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

 

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

 

I hope this explanation helps. 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

 

 

 


eric freedman
 

Hi Arno,
When plugged in I always hand a fish shaped "guppy" over the side. On Kimberlite I connect it to the bonding on the fuel fill. It is permanently connected , I store it in the same locker as the fuel fill and drop it over the side when plugged in. It usually lasts over a year.

To easily remove the end caps on the membranes I use Ian Jenkins method.
I take a piece of sail tie and clamp it on to the end cap leaving a loop in the sail tie. I hold it on with a hose clamp.
I then put the loop of the sail tie over one of the mizzen winches and give the membrane a sharp tug. POP- its off in 2 seconds.

Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arno Luijten
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:28 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the explanation. You made a good point about the A/C pump. I forgot all about that. So there are actually a few places where the zink “meets” the shore ground. I’m in a marina in St. Martin and connected to the shore power for most of the time. In this position I’ve calculated my anodes to last about 6 months before left at 40% weight and replacement becomes required.
So It seems I’m not playing to be a huge battery in the marina too much.
I will verify if the bonding connection to the watermaker is working as supposed and make sure the leaks are rectified. That is all I can do I think for now.

I did have a nice time taking off the caps of the membrane vessels by the way. In the end I drilled a 3 holes in the side of the caps (120 degrees apart), tapped a thread in it and put a bolt in. I then could use hammer and screwdriver to gently tap out the caps by using the side of the bolt-head as hit point.

Hopefully next week the whole thing will be back on its feet again.

Regards,

Arno
SV Luna,
A54-121


James Alton
 

To All,

   Can anyone tell me the socket size for the nut holding the copper strap on the keel bolt in the sump on a 1987 Maramu?  I need to replace the copper bonding strap on my boat and would like to have the tools on hand for the job when we arrive at the boat.  

    If replacing any of the original Amel bonding wire, is there any downside to using tinned wire?  The tinned wire by Ancor that I am familiar with does have some pretty fine wires that might be easily damaged by hose clamps so perhaps it would be best to solder those areas.  Any thoughts? 

Thanks,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:05 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Bill,
You are absolutely correct.
Additionally , if you want to be totally paranoid, tinning the bonding wires at the connections will greatly increase the life of the connection. It will also prevent water from wicking down the wire. I have checked all my connections back to the rudder and they are 100 %.  I think I will take my own advice and tin a lot of the bonding. As you know Kimberlite 1s 16 years old with original wiring and I have only lost the bonding strap to the bilge connection.
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker
 
Nick, 
 
I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.
 
I will answer from my experience. 
  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.
<image001.png>
 
I hope that this helps.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,
 
I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.
 
Good bonding connections????
 
How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.
 
Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?
 
Kind regards
 
Nick 
 
 
S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54
On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
 
Arno,
 
Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 
 
I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):
 
Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.
 
EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.
 
EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.
 
I hope this explanation helps. 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121
 
 
 



 

I am guessing it is the same size as the SN, SM, & 54 which is 30mm.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:47 AM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
To All,

   Can anyone tell me the socket size for the nut holding the copper strap on the keel bolt in the sump on a 1987 Maramu?  I need to replace the copper bonding strap on my boat and would like to have the tools on hand for the job when we arrive at the boat.  

    If replacing any of the original Amel bonding wire, is there any downside to using tinned wire?  The tinned wire by Ancor that I am familiar with does have some pretty fine wires that might be easily damaged by hose clamps so perhaps it would be best to solder those areas.  Any thoughts? 

Thanks,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:05 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Bill,
You are absolutely correct.
Additionally , if you want to be totally paranoid, tinning the bonding wires at the connections will greatly increase the life of the connection. It will also prevent water from wicking down the wire. I have checked all my connections back to the rudder and they are 100 %.  I think I will take my own advice and tin a lot of the bonding. As you know Kimberlite 1s 16 years old with original wiring and I have only lost the bonding strap to the bilge connection.
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker
 
Nick, 
 
I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.
 
I will answer from my experience. 
  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.
<image001.png>
 
I hope that this helps.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,
 
I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.
 
Good bonding connections????
 
How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.
 
Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?
 
Kind regards
 
Nick 
 
 
S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54
On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
 
Arno,
 
Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 
 
I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):
 
Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.
 
EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.
 
EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.
 
I hope this explanation helps. 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121
 
 
 



Arno Luijten
 

Hi Jean-Pierre,

The funny thing is that I had corrosion going one everywhere but NOT on the membrane unit itself. It seems you had a different cause than I have. My bet for now is on the weeping endcaps of the high pressure pump and T-joint on the pre-filter. But it’s good to hear you now have no corrosion problems anymore.

By the way; don’t take Lagoon as any form of reference. Their only standard is (low) price. I do agree the spare parts of Dessalator are silly, but most parts are available elsewhere as well. I bought new (identical) membranes for approx 160 Euro each in the Netherlands.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


James Alton
 

Bill,

   Thanks, I will order a 30mm to take with me.  If this doesn’t fit I will post an update on the correct size.

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #200

On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:03 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I am guessing it is the same size as the SN, SM, & 54 which is 30mm.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:47 AM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
To All,

   Can anyone tell me the socket size for the nut holding the copper strap on the keel bolt in the sump on a 1987 Maramu?  I need to replace the copper bonding strap on my boat and would like to have the tools on hand for the job when we arrive at the boat.  

    If replacing any of the original Amel bonding wire, is there any downside to using tinned wire?  The tinned wire by Ancor that I am familiar with does have some pretty fine wires that might be easily damaged by hose clamps so perhaps it would be best to solder those areas.  Any thoughts? 

Thanks,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:05 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Bill,
You are absolutely correct.
Additionally , if you want to be totally paranoid, tinning the bonding wires at the connections will greatly increase the life of the connection. It will also prevent water from wicking down the wire. I have checked all my connections back to the rudder and they are 100 %.  I think I will take my own advice and tin a lot of the bonding. As you know Kimberlite 1s 16 years old with original wiring and I have only lost the bonding strap to the bilge connection.
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker
 
Nick, 
 
I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.
 
I will answer from my experience. 
  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.
<image001.png>
 
I hope that this helps.
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,
 
I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.
 
Good bonding connections????
 
How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.
 
Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?
 
Kind regards
 
Nick 
 
 
S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54
On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
 
Arno,
 
Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 
 
I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):
 
Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.
 
EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.
 
EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.
 
I hope this explanation helps. 
 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970
 
 
On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121
 
 
 






eric freedman
 

James,

Do you have an Autoprop?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of James Alton via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 12:38 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker

 

Bill,

 

   Thanks, I will order a 30mm to take with me.  If this doesn’t fit I will post an update on the correct size.

 

James

SV Sueno

Maramu #200

 

On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:03 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

 

I am guessing it is the same size as the SN, SM, & 54 which is 30mm.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 7:47 AM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

To All,

 

   Can anyone tell me the socket size for the nut holding the copper strap on the keel bolt in the sump on a 1987 Maramu?  I need to replace the copper bonding strap on my boat and would like to have the tools on hand for the job when we arrive at the boat.  

 

    If replacing any of the original Amel bonding wire, is there any downside to using tinned wire?  The tinned wire by Ancor that I am familiar with does have some pretty fine wires that might be easily damaged by hose clamps so perhaps it would be best to solder those areas.  Any thoughts? 

 

Thanks,

 

James

 

SV Sueno

Maramu #220

 

On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:05 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

 

Bill,

You are absolutely correct.

Additionally , if you want to be totally paranoid, tinning the bonding wires at the connections will greatly increase the life of the connection. It will also prevent water from wicking down the wire. I have checked all my connections back to the rudder and they are 100 %.  I think I will take my own advice and tin a lot of the bonding. As you know Kimberlite 1s 16 years old with original wiring and I have only lost the bonding strap to the bilge connection.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:59 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Earth bonding and watermaker

 

Nick, 

 

I think that most of your questions were directed to me and I already stated that I am not an electrical engineer. Maybe some should be directed to SAV at Amel.

 

I will answer from my experience. 

  • The connections between the yellow/green bonding wire and devices will get corroded even if the wire is not soldered.
  • The resistance between the propellor and the anode should be zero or almost zero
  • I believe that the connections should be clean and free of paint and corrosion. 
  • I believe that you should check on each 2-year haulout the resistance between the rudder anodes and the propellor. This check will verify, engine, transmission, and C-Drive.
  • I think the Amel Bonding System is more than adequate. Keep in mind that there are many builders that bond nothing! Amel bonds most water connections, even when it is saltwater that is the most common culprit.
  • Some of the connections are more important than others, but at least one owner experienced significant C-Drive damage and the propellor is vulnerable if the bonding connection to the C-Drive fails
  • If you suspect something is going on, connect a wire to the rudder post quadrant and test resistance between it and the C-Drive. You are looking for good continuity and almost zero resistance.
  • Once you have verified engine, transmission & C-Drive, checking resistance between the C-Drive and various other bonding connections should ensure that the various other bonding connections are adequate, if the resistance is near zero.
  • On SN, SM, & 54, visually inspect the bonding strap inside the grey water bilge to ensure that the copper strap is OK beginning at the stainless steel nut at the bottom up to the yellow/green wire(s) junction at the top. You will have to pump 100% of the water out using a wet vac or similar. The most common place for a break is within about 3" of the stainless steel nut and even 1/2" of water will hide a break. If it is broken, replace it because this protects your cast iron ballast from electrolysis. Use 1/8" X 2" copper bar...don't use stainless steel for many reasons.

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I hope that this helps.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 11:58 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Bill,

 

I meant to say well done to all those involved with setting up the new owners site. Thanks.

 

Good bonding connections????

 

How good can we expect the connections on the bonding circuits to be? I note that on my boat and from pictures in the owners manuals that the yellow/green wires that are used for the bonding circuit are not tinned (I think) and very often are connected to say a metal object with a hose clamp and some of the plastic insulation removed from the wire, linking one fitting to the next in a ring.  These connections will invariably become oxidised and green. Given the very low voltages, the connection will be poor. I have made an effort to improve the connections where practical, by changing some hose clamps for new and cleaning up the surfaces, but I wonder how far to go. I was always taught that one should use a dedicated insulated lug with a soldered connector and a copper bolted on lug for all bonding connections, and to avoid clamping uninsulated wire with a hose clamp to, say, a through hull fitting or a saltwater manifold, for example.

 

Do you think the original connection system is adequate? How important are these connections? Do you think it a good idea to measure the resistance between the Zincs on the rudder and various connected fittings around the boat? If so what might be an acceptable reading?

 

Kind regards

 

Nick 

 

 

S/Y Amelia hull 019  Aml 54

On 14 Mar 2019, at 15:06, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

 

Arno,

 

Of course I do not know exactly the cause of the corrosion, but it may be saltwater caused corrosion and was not caused by a missing or poor bonding connection. 

 

I am not an electrical engineer. Let me attempt to give you a Bill Rouse explanation and answer to your question. Be sure to read all of the Electrical Warnings in your Amel 54 User and Owners manual (You may want to ask SAV at Amel, afterall, that is what they are there for):

 

Bonding Connections on your Amel 54 were designed to electrically connect devices in contact with water to the anodes on the rudder. There is micro voltage in this pathway and the least amount of corrosion between the bonding wire and the device will cause issues similar to no bonding connection. The metal where the yellow/green wire connects should be free of paint and very clean. The same thing for the bare end of the wire.

 

EARTH Connections on your Amel 54 are designed to protect you from electrical shock. These connections should cause either the Main breaker to open or the device breaker to open when a 220VAC load line connects to the yellow/green EARTH. An example would be your 220VAC dessalator pump motor has a EARTH connection. If possibly saltwater was spilled on the pump creating a connection between the 220VAC load line and EARTH, breakers will open cutting OFF the 220VAC load line to the electric motor. If in this example if the EARTH connection to the motor was broken, the possibility of electric shock will exist when you touch the motor or anything connected to the motor.

 

EARTH and Bonding are separate systems, but sometimes EARTH meets Bonding on your Amel 54. A good example of this is the original Calpeda A/C pump. It is connected to Bonding at the output pipe. The 220VAC EARTH is connected to the metal case inside the wiring box. And, of course, the metal case is connected to the output pipe, thus EARTH and Bonding are connected. I believe that the same thing is true on your Dessalator Duo.

 

I hope this explanation helps. 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering about a thing after removing my Duo watermaker. I noticed quite some galvanic corrosion despite the fact that the green/yellow bonding wire was attached at several points to the watermaker.
I was actually just in time taking the thing apart as I'm still able to salvage all the important bits.
From traces I could see I'm guessing one of the endcaps on the pump has been leaking also given the amount of salt build-up at the chassis and pump-base.

What I'm wondering about is the bonding sytem. Is it also connected to the shore power earth lead? From earlier conversations I vaguely remember it was not connected.  If not then why is the earth connection of the 230 Volt pump connected to the mains earth?

Any advise appreciated.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121