wind data to Raymarine ST 6000


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hello fellow Amel owners. I still have not managed to get the Raymarine to steer to wind. I will be single handing up to Madeira and it is likely to be upwind, so having the autopilot follow the wind shifts would be handy.

On the back of the Raymarine Control head is NMEA input terminal with just one +ve and one -ve.

On the B&G display which is FFD NMEA as shown on the photo there is no NMEA output. So presumably the connection must be in the PROCESSOR. 

I have  run a cable from the Raymarine control head to the chart table and tried various connections in the processor using the manual as a guide but to no avail.

I emailed Tinley Electronics in the UK who want to sell me a Multi Funcion Display (MFD for over £1000). I am reluctant to do that. They say that only some displays will support this, but as shown in the photo this is a  NMEA FFD.

Does anyone know if I can simply connect the Raymarine NMEA Input to the B&G processor, if so to what terminals?

Nick

S/Y Amelia Aml 54 -019 La Palma preparing to sail to Corfu.


Peter Jaeger
 

Dear Nick
I assume you have a Hydra 2000 Processor and you connected the Autopilot NMEA Input port to the NMEA Output 1 of the B&G Processor on Terminal 21/22 or 22/23 for NMEA Output 2 (see screenshot from manual).
That should work. If you have a possibility to read the NMEA datastream (6.6.2. on Screenshot), you can check if you find the wind and speed data the autopilot needs. 
If it does not work I will have an FFD NMEA for sale, I will be on the boat on Eastern and be able to send it.
Best regards
Peter 
SY Wilson SM003 La Rochell


Peter Jaeger
 

Herer is the attachment, Chapter 6.6.2 out of the User Manual


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your response.

I am going to the boat on 25th April so will check, but I think that I tried Terminal 21/22 and 22/23 in the autumn when I was last on the boat, and it did not send wind data to the Autopilot. However I will try again.

Tinley electronics said that I would need a FFD NMEA or their MFD but my photo of the back of my display says that it is NMEA FFD. So it should work.  Is there a difference between mine and the one you might have for sale? 


Best

Nick
Amelia La Palma AML 54-019

 

On 14 Apr 2019, at 11:26, Peter Jaeger via Groups.Io <mallamok@...> wrote:

Dear Nick
I assume you have a Hydra 2000 Processor and you connected the Autopilot NMEA Input port to the NMEA Output 1 of the B&G Processor on Terminal 21/22 or 22/23 for NMEA Output 2 (see screenshot from manual).
That should work. If you have a possibility to read the NMEA datastream (6.6.2. on Screenshot), you can check if you find the wind and speed data the autopilot needs. 
If it does not work I will have an FFD NMEA for sale, I will be on the boat on Eastern and be able to send it.
Best regards
Peter 
SY Wilson SM003 La Rochell


Gary Silver
 

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



Peter Jaeger
 

Hi Nick 
I will check on Friday, then I will be on the boat.
best 
Peter


John Clark
 

Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



 

NMEA input for wind is on the back of the ST6000 head control unit. Check your manual for the setup procedures.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 2:22 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



 

image.png
Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 2:42 PM CW Bill Rouse via Groups.Io <brouse=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
NMEA input for wind is on the back of the ST6000 head control unit. Check your manual for the setup procedures.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 2:22 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



Dan Carlson
 

We do use sail to wind  in close reach situations.  The autopilot will give us an audible alarm when there is a wind shift that it cannot keep up with.  

I am confused about the peecieved risk of STW.  If you sail to a heading and the wind shifts, there will be no alarm and you may still accidently gybe or stall. 

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 1:22 PM John Clark <john.biohead@... wrote:
Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



John Clark
 

Dan you are right, yes I forgot about the alarm.  At least on the newer AP if the course over ground changes too much in a short period an alarm will sound, also an alarm if there is a gybe and the AP cannot get the wind angle right.  In my experience the former occurs with a weather front or squall, the latter with light wind.  


On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 2:50 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
We do use sail to wind  in close reach situations.  The autopilot will give us an audible alarm when there is a wind shift that it cannot keep up with.  

I am confused about the peecieved risk of STW.  If you sail to a heading and the wind shifts, there will be no alarm and you may still accidently gybe or stall. 

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 1:22 PM John Clark <john.biohead@... wrote:
Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico



ngtnewington Newington
 

Hello all who have responded. 
I arrived back on Amelia this afternoon. We launch tomorrow.
I did have a go at linking the AP with some success. Though it is yet to be tested.
This forum has come up trumps. Many of the 9 FFD cables are not connected to anything. Since I already ran the cable from the AP N MEA +ve and -ve input back to the chart table I simply connected the purple from FFD to the + Input and the black to the - input. The black is connected to the processor terminal 16, so I just added the AP - nmea input wire to that terminal. 
Hey presto we have wind data to the AP.
I plan to check the systems tomorrow and be ready to sail on Saturday, I am watching the weather. There is a boisterous option on Saturday when I might be close to laying Madeira in one tack but there is the possibility of a fair wind, all be it a bit light and variable, on Thursday. Trouble is the forecast models I watch conflict. 6 days ahead is stretching it a bit for accurate forecasts.
Gentlemen never sail to windward.......dream on.

Nick back aboard Amelia
Tazacorte, La Palma
Aml 54-019


On 25 Apr 2019, at 19:49, Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:

We do use sail to wind  in close reach situations.  The autopilot will give us an audible alarm when there is a wind shift that it cannot keep up with.  

I am confused about the peecieved risk of STW.  If you sail to a heading and the wind shifts, there will be no alarm and you may still accidently gybe or stall. 

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387



On Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 1:22 PM John Clark <john.biohead@... wrote:
Hi Nick,
    sorry for the tardy response...just started new job and am in process of buying a house...  On my SM with a Hydra2000 system the FFD with NMEA was installed however the NMEA output from the FFD was not used, so the two NMEA leads were folded up and taped to the back of the display.  The FFD Display is the device that generates and transmits the NMEA data.  Someone here said it is the violet colored lead, I think that is correct.  .  

As far as steering to wind (STW) I did exactly what you are trying to do.  I have a newer Raymarine AP (EV-400) with the ACU 400 actuator control and an Es78 chartplotter, I suspect the ST6000 will behave the same.   

. I ran the NMEA output from the FFD direct to the chartplotter on the helm and it feeds the signal to the AP via the Raymarine network. Incidentally my Furuno AIS transponder(thanks you SV Tritin) located at the nav station uses the same wire to send AIS data to the chartplotter.  I have had no issues with the dual usage of the same wire. 

 I have sailed maybe 2000nm in the STW mode. In sail to wind, the system is for the most part great. I use it primarily sailing close to wind.  Other wind angles are more forgiving so I use heading mode otherwise.  As one person said here,  sudden wind shifts can outmaneuver the pilot.  I have had this happen once or twice.   I always sail with the preventer rigged so other than looking like a sailing rube there is no damage to the boat or sails.  Stronger wind is better.   In light wind when the motion of the boat affects the apparent wind angle the AP still works but I suspect it is cycling at least a little bit futilely chasing the moving mast...but it does hold course to the wind. (note it is not a lot of motion of the wheel but I can tell it is having trouble making up its mind.)

Regards,  John

SV Annie  SM #37
Brunswick, Georgia
 


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 8:54 AM ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Gary,

The plot thickens, all very interesting. At the end of the process, if the view is that the response of the autopilot to wind shifts is too slow to be practical I see no point in the exercise.  I have the wind data I need to see on the B&G  displays, which is enough. 

However

It is interesting this whole exercise. When I fitted a new speedo, I looked at various options but Richard at Tinley electronics advised me to go for the paddle wheel as the “Baud rate” is important for updating the speed data so that true wind is calculated accurately. He said that some other speedo’s would be slower to update the processor……etc etc. I suspect that the wind data to the autopilot needs to be at the correct Baud Rate for it all to work well.

On my last boat I had B&G system Hydra 2000 system and B&G autopilot. I could set it to steer say 35 degrees to the apparent wind and she would helm the boat up wind following every lift or header. Or run square downwind without gybing accidentally.

 I may well try splicing or actually just sharing some terminals for the FFD NMEA output that become processor input terminals on the processor to the Auto input and see what happens.

Thank you for the information. It looks like I will have to play around and see what I get.

Best

Nick
Amelia AML 54-019 La Palma

On 14 Apr 2019, at 13:33, Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver@...> wrote:

Hi Nick:  What I have to say applies to my 2001 vintage B & G 2000 FFD (full function display), B & G Hydra 2000 processor, and Raymarine ST7000+ autopilot.  I am going from my Cadd drawings from 18 years ago. NOTE:  There evidently are NMEA FFDs and non-NMEA FFDs 

There is a nine conductor cable that runs from the NMEA FFD to the Hydra processor.  In my case the NMEA wires were NOT connected to anything at the Hydra processor.   Amel had hooked up the supplied Furuno GPS to the Hydra NMEA processor Inputs, but there were no other NMEA inputs connected.  

In that 9 conductor cable from the NMEA FFD the violet (NMEA Output Signal) and black (Ground) wires are the NMEA OUT from the FFD, and the brown (NMEA Input Signal) and blue (NMEA Input Return) are the NMEA input TO the FFD.  My confusion at the time was because there are NMEA terminals on the Hydra processor but they are hooked up to the Amel installed Furuno GPS only.   I spoke to Pochon (Amel's electronics sub-contractor) shortly after the the time we took delivery of the boat and they instructed me to hook things up the way I did, that being,  splicing wires to the violet, black, brown and blue wires and running the NMEA out and NMEA in (from the FFD) to the auto-pilot computer. I do have a note that the NMEA shields should ONLY BE GROUNDED AT THE TRANSMITTING END OF THE CABLE. 


 Based on aviation ARINC 429 data bus (similar to NMEA data bus) NMEA data wires can be paralleled, so I think in retrospect it should have been possible to have those NMEA wires from the FFD go to the pins 21/22 and 26/27 of the Hydra, I am not sure why Amel didn't hook it up that way. 

In my case I ran two, 2-conductor twisted pair shielded aviation grade tefzel wires from the Hydra and ran them to the autopilot computer NMEA input and output lugs.  It has been 18 years since I did this but I vaguely remember that there was some sort of setting in the FFD programming or perhaps it was at the autopilot,  that had to be set (something like a node designation) or something.  

Joel at the time told me, and my experience has born this out, that winds can change too dramatically to allow the auto-pilot to steer to the wind (a squall comes, the boat jibes and damage is done).  So I only display the relative wind at the helm and use the heading mode of the Auto Pilot to actually do the steering. 

I hope this gives you some clues and doesn't further muddy the waters. 

Sincerely, 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335 (2001)
Puerto Rico