SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off


Gary Silver
 

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


eric freedman
 

Hi Bill,

At a USA the pedestal is wired (50 Amp) red, white , black, and green.

For the purposes of an Amel , the white (neutral is not used on a 50 amp plug.

 

 

The black and red are both hot and are connected to the blue and brown in the Amel system

The green ground is connected to the green yellow, which is connected to the AC and the bonding on the boat.

 

The ground green should be the same as a white (Neutral) leg on the USA circuit. Therefore between the green or brown  and the green yellow, you should read 110 volts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 8:37 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


 

Eric,

Exactly, and that is why there is 115 volts via black USA to blue EU still ON at the Calpeda pump when the AC breaker (brown load) is OFF.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:54 AM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

At a USA the pedestal is wired (50 Amp) red, white , black, and green.

For the purposes of an Amel , the white (neutral is not used on a 50 amp plug.

 

 

The black and red are both hot and are connected to the blue and brown in the Amel system

The green ground is connected to the green yellow, which is connected to the AC and the bonding on the boat.

 

The ground green should be the same as a white (Neutral) leg on the USA circuit. Therefore between the green or brown  and the green yellow, you should read 110 volts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 8:37 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


eric freedman
 

Hi Bill,
I do not remember 100% however , aren't the 220 volt  Amel breakers double pole?
Fair Winds,
Eric



On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 01:07 PM, CW Bill Rouse wrote:

Eric,

Exactly, and that is why there is 115 volts via black USA to blue EU still ON at the Calpeda pump when the AC breaker (brown load) is OFF.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:54 AM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

At a USA the pedestal is wired (50 Amp) red, white , black, and green.

For the purposes of an Amel , the white (neutral is not used on a 50 amp plug.

 

 

The black and red are both hot and are connected to the blue and brown in the Amel system

The green ground is connected to the green yellow, which is connected to the AC and the bonding on the boat.

 

The ground green should be the same as a white (Neutral) leg on the USA circuit. Therefore between the green or brown  and the green yellow, you should read 110 volts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 8:37 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


 

Not sure. I also don't remember any blue wires on those breakers. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 3:42 PM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,
I do not remember 100% however , aren't the 220 volt  Amel breakers double pole?
Fair Winds,
Eric



On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 01:07 PM, CW Bill Rouse wrote:

Eric,

Exactly, and that is why there is 115 volts via black USA to blue EU still ON at the Calpeda pump when the AC breaker (brown load) is OFF.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:54 AM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

At a USA the pedestal is wired (50 Amp) red, white , black, and green.

For the purposes of an Amel , the white (neutral is not used on a 50 amp plug.

 

 

The black and red are both hot and are connected to the blue and brown in the Amel system

The green ground is connected to the green yellow, which is connected to the AC and the bonding on the boat.

 

The ground green should be the same as a white (Neutral) leg on the USA circuit. Therefore between the green or brown  and the green yellow, you should read 110 volts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 8:37 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


eric freedman
 

Bill,

I will be on Kimberlite next week and check.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 5:19 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

Not sure. I also don't remember any blue wires on those breakers. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 3:42 PM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

I do not remember 100% however , aren't the 220 volt  Amel breakers double pole?

Fair Winds,

Eric




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 01:07 PM, CW Bill Rouse wrote:

Eric,

 

Exactly, and that is why there is 115 volts via black USA to blue EU still ON at the Calpeda pump when the AC breaker (brown load) is OFF.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 11:54 AM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

At a USA the pedestal is wired (50 Amp) red, white , black, and green.

For the purposes of an Amel , the white (neutral is not used on a 50 amp plug.

 

 

The black and red are both hot and are connected to the blue and brown in the Amel system

The green ground is connected to the green yellow, which is connected to the AC and the bonding on the boat.

 

The ground green should be the same as a white (Neutral) leg on the USA circuit. Therefore between the green or brown  and the green yellow, you should read 110 volts.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 8:37 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

If my memory is correct, I have your answer. 

 

On USA grid there is a leg of 115VAC on the Load and another leg of 115VAC on the Return. The color of the Load is Brown and the color of Return/Neutral is Blue. From memory, I believe that the 220VAC breaker only switches OFF the Load, leaving 115VAC on the Return (Blue). Of course the case is connected to Earth.

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

 

 

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:21 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all:  The other day one of my Amel original Compact 9 ACs started short cycling and I checked the Calpeda pump and found it was not running.  First thing to check in this failure mode was the run capacitor at the pump, and sure enough it was bulging and clearly fried.  I tripped off all the AC breakers, shorted across the terminals of the capacitor at the pump, removed the capacitor and installed a new one rated at 440 VAC.  During the installation process I received a mild electrical shock.  Still with ALL AC breakers tripped at the 220 Volt Panel in the galley I measured the voltage across the blue and brown wires at the pump I found there was 220 VAC.  Also there was 115 VAC from the blue OR brown wire measured to the motor case/yellow-green wire.  

WHERE IS THIS SNEAK VOLTAGE POWER TO THE CALPEDA PUMP COMING FROM?  
Steps taken so far:
1.  Verified shore power connections (I'm on the USA grid).  All shore power connections appears properly wired. 
2.  Verified none of the 220 VAC panel Diruptors was shorted (i.e. now voltage across any of them when tripped).  
3.  Visually inspected the Climma three unit relay box and found no visual evidence of anything amiss. I have not yet tested the individual contacts for each of the three relays.
4.  Disconnected the shore power and started the generator, with it running there is no voltage at the Calpeda with the AC (air conditioning) breakers open.  Reviewed the Amel rudimentary schematics and don't see anything different between K1 (the generator change over relay) for shore power vs generator power.  
5  Verified that the only thing that removes voltage at the pump with the shore power plunged in is to trip the GFCI breaker on the side of the 220 VAC panel. 

I consulted VECO NA and they confirmed there should not be voltage at the pump with the breakers open.  The installation manual for the Amel triple unit system says,  "4.5 MULTIPLE INSTALLATION:  4.5.1  The mains supply to the pump relay box must be independent from the air-conditioners and protected by a circuit breaker and an independent fuse.  The pump supply will come in parallel from each relay which is controlled by each air conditioner." (English translation from Italian is a bit wanting).  

My questions:  
1.  Where is the independent 220 VAC power for the relay box wired from? (i.e. what is its source?)  Clearly it isn't coming from any of the three AC circuit breakers.  
2.  Any thoughts on the most likely failure mode to allow voltage at the Calpeda  when on shore power but not when running on the generator (in my mind that eliminates a stuck contact on one of the relays in the Climma relay box as the generator also uses those same relays).
3.  Anybody out there found a similar situation?

Thanks for your thoughts. 

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
(just down the dock from s/v/ Delos here at Puerto Del Rey Marina in Fajardo Puerto Rico)


Gary Silver
 
Edited

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Dan Carlson
 

Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


 

Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Porter McRoberts
 

Not to confuse things but to add to the conversation. Mine is also live with the AC off on the 230v panel. We traced it to the generator/shore power switch. I wear rubber gloves when dealing with the pump capacitor as remarkably it took two good shocks for me to learn my lesson. 

I think you’d have to have double wiring to each ac unit as well as the pump. A lot of current for each switch?  I thought about putting in a relay and contrasted that with the ease of glove wearing. 


Porter
A54-152. 

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Apr 27, 2019, at 8:04 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Dan et al,

Anyone who works on 240 volt circuits without turning of the power at the mains switch is living dangerously.(temporally)  These currents are lethal. Likewise I wouldn't work on them with the gen set running

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 28 April 2019 at 02:14 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:

Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver= mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 

 

 


Dan Carlson
 

Hi Bill R., 

I was specifically replying to Gary Silver and his thread on the Calpeda AC Pump. It  looks like his last response is imbedded below mine in my email, and my response looks like it is still attached to the main thread in my e-mail inbox.  But perhaps in the forum or your email it shows up separately and would thus of course it would be difficult to see the context. As I am remote in the western Carribean, I am pretty limited to my smart phone functionality.

In one of Gary's e-mails he expressed interest in what other boats were measuring; therefore my description of measurements were in response to his measurements at the Calpeda AC sea water pump for the various conditions that I described.
 
When the pump was wired but switched off at the breaker I had one set of readings, another when the main 30amp GFCI was switched off, and then when I disconected the supply wires at the pump I had another set of readings on across the three wires.  I think that my readings are consistent with US power supply having 220 supplied by 110 on one supply and the other 110 being supplied on the 2nd hot wire 180 degrees off phase.  However,  I will take your point to check the pedestal and the 60Hz shore power plug (as it was wired by the previous owner :-) ) 

I also agree with Danny's response supporting full disconnect at the pedistal; however in this case I did my tests carefully with power supplied in order to try to understand and provide some supportive data to Gary's observations.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe SM#387




On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:05 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:
Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


 

Dan,

My advice is to never trust a previous owner. 😀

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 1:27 AM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Bill R., 

I was specifically replying to Gary Silver and his thread on the Calpeda AC Pump. It  looks like his last response is imbedded below mine in my email, and my response looks like it is still attached to the main thread in my e-mail inbox.  But perhaps in the forum or your email it shows up separately and would thus of course it would be difficult to see the context. As I am remote in the western Carribean, I am pretty limited to my smart phone functionality.

In one of Gary's e-mails he expressed interest in what other boats were measuring; therefore my description of measurements were in response to his measurements at the Calpeda AC sea water pump for the various conditions that I described.
 
When the pump was wired but switched off at the breaker I had one set of readings, another when the main 30amp GFCI was switched off, and then when I disconected the supply wires at the pump I had another set of readings on across the three wires.  I think that my readings are consistent with US power supply having 220 supplied by 110 on one supply and the other 110 being supplied on the 2nd hot wire 180 degrees off phase.  However,  I will take your point to check the pedestal and the 60Hz shore power plug (as it was wired by the previous owner :-) ) 

I also agree with Danny's response supporting full disconnect at the pedistal; however in this case I did my tests carefully with power supplied in order to try to understand and provide some supportive data to Gary's observations.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe SM#387




On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:05 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:
Dan,

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 
Causes:
  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 
I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hi Gary,
I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387




On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico 


Mark Erdos
 

Now, that’s funny!

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:25 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM Climma AC - Calpeda Pump Voltage with Breakers Off

 

Dan,

 

My advice is to never trust a previous owner. 😀

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 1:27 AM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:

Hi Bill R., 

 

I was specifically replying to Gary Silver and his thread on the Calpeda AC Pump. It  looks like his last response is imbedded below mine in my email, and my response looks like it is still attached to the main thread in my e-mail inbox.  But perhaps in the forum or your email it shows up separately and would thus of course it would be difficult to see the context. As I am remote in the western Carribean, I am pretty limited to my smart phone functionality.

 

In one of Gary's e-mails he expressed interest in what other boats were measuring; therefore my description of measurements were in response to his measurements at the Calpeda AC sea water pump for the various conditions that I described.

 

When the pump was wired but switched off at the breaker I had one set of readings, another when the main 30amp GFCI was switched off, and then when I disconected the supply wires at the pump I had another set of readings on across the three wires.  I think that my readings are consistent with US power supply having 220 supplied by 110 on one supply and the other 110 being supplied on the 2nd hot wire 180 degrees off phase.  However,  I will take your point to check the pedestal and the 60Hz shore power plug (as it was wired by the previous owner :-) ) 

 

I also agree with Danny's response supporting full disconnect at the pedistal; however in this case I did my tests carefully with power supplied in order to try to understand and provide some supportive data to Gary's observations.

 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe SM#387

 

 

 

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:05 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@... wrote:

Dan,

 

I am a little lost as to where exactly you are measuring the voltage, but will generally respond.

 

Sounds to me like you could have 120v on the Earth wire (yellow/green) because you show zero between brown and blue. 

Causes:

  • This could be caused by shore power cable/plug wired incorrectly. I have seen the Earth wire (yellow/green) connected to the center post of a USA plug rather than to the metal sleeve of the plug. 
  • I have also seen marina pedestals wired wrong placing voltage on Earth wire (yellow/green
  • I have also seen this happen when using a pedestal shared with another boat which is wired wrong. 

I would trace starting with the pedestal connection.

 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:14 PM Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:

Hi Gary,

I am on BeBe at Red Frog Marina in Panama wit 60Hz shore power.  I just checked, with all the AC breakers off but  the main GFI on, and I have: 1)  120v from blue to yellow/green, as well as from brown to the yellow/green. 2) I show 0 volts AC accross the blue to brown contacts (I don't understand how you could measure 240 v across the Blue to brown when the motor is not running?). 3) when I turn of the main GFI breaker there is no voltage.    I did not test the generator.  

 

That is a shocking discovery!  It would be very interesting to get confirmation of the voltages from a boat on 50 Hz supply. 

 

One thought: Could the stray voltage be coming back from the capacitor.  It shows 0 across the Blue to brow because the voltage on the blue and brown are on the same cycle when there is only one 120v source?  To test this I disconnected the blue and brown wires and measured the voltage of these independently: Blue wire to yellow/green was 120v, Brown wire to yellow/green showed 39v (Stray voltage?).  The voltage across the Blue to Brown was 120v.

 

I'm surprised this has not come up before, as it creates a very unsafe condition for one assuming the circuit is de-energized.  My conclusion is to disconnect at the pedistal when working on the AC circuits to be safe.

 

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 9:37 PM Gary Silver via Groups.Io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Hi Bill and Eric:

Yes, all the 220 panel CBs are double pole (both Line [brown] and Neutral [Blue] are switched).  With all breakers open (tripped) there is still 240 VAC across the blue and brown leads at the Calpeda Pump when hooked to shore power, but not when the genset is running.  Looking at the Climma schematic (really more of a diagram) the neutral and safety ground wires are wire straight thru from the "separate source" and the Line [brown] from the separate source is switched by the relays to provide line voltage to the pump when a given unit is switched on. So I can see perhaps that there might be 110 voltage between the blue and safety ground at the pump from this "seperate source" but not the 220 that I am seeing.  Olivier, are you there?   What is the separate source for the Climma relay box?

I believe that the "other source" supply for the relay box is directly wired from the 220 volt buss just down-stream from the GFCI 30 amp breaker on the side of the 220 volt panel before it is distributed to any of the CBs (Diruptors).  The difference between Euro power and US power is noted and somehow plays into this.   Will continue to puzzle this out along with you.  Perhaps I need to get to sail to some European power, plug in and see if the mystery voltage goes away.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Gary S. Silver
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 # 335
Puerto Rico