Topics

The two "sticks" on the genoa top swivel

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi everyone,

How critical are the 2 sticks/poles (perhaps called "cornes" in French?) that are bolted onto the top swivel of the genoa furling assembly?

Our SM was sold to us with just one of these installed on the starboard side. All it seems to do is occasionally make contact with the mast - gouging the aluminum and removing paint - and/or interfere with the second halyard. Wondering if it can just be removed or if we should source and install the second one on the port side?

Wouldn't the genoa halyard tension be enough to keep the top swivel in it's proper orientation?

With both sticks installed, are they supposed to make any contact with the mast or rigging? If not, what is their purpose? Only during extreme forces/emergency? 

I don't see anything like these on other boats (a most common thing with Amel design) so any insight or information is welcomed.

Thanks,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

 

You should replace them and find rubber hose to fit over the ends. 

This was a smart, cheap, reliable innovation from Henri Amel that prevents twisting issues, especially when you least want them. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, May 12, 2019, 7:04 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

How critical are the 2 sticks/poles (perhaps called "cornes" in French?) that are bolted onto the top swivel of the genoa furling assembly?

Our SM was sold to us with just one of these installed on the starboard side. All it seems to do is occasionally make contact with the mast - gouging the aluminum and removing paint - and/or interfere with the second halyard. Wondering if it can just be removed or if we should source and install the second one on the port side?

Wouldn't the genoa halyard tension be enough to keep the top swivel in it's proper orientation?

With both sticks installed, are they supposed to make any contact with the mast or rigging? If not, what is their purpose? Only during extreme forces/emergency? 

I don't see anything like these on other boats (a most common thing with Amel design) so any insight or information is welcomed.

Thanks,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

Dean Gillies
 

I’m interested in this subject too. I recently lost one of the black rubber/plastic covers from one of the ‘sticks’. I’d hate to think it was gouging the mast! 
I also have never seen these devices on other furling systems.
Maybe I need to get up there and wrap it in some self-vulcanising tape, or heatshrink sleeving??
Presumably Maud can supply new sleeves and sticks.
Dean
SY Stella 
A54-164

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Mike,

just to add to the other answers. Yes they are needed, both of them. Absolutely essential At times they can become bent and need straitening or replacing. Never leave them uncovered. The cover is best dine with a heavy wall rubber tubing to give maximum mast protection. I use fuel hose. It comes in many internal diameters and is rubber like and has thick walls. Just find one that is a tight fit. I cover most of the length.. You don't need to go up the mast, unroll the headsail and drop the furler to deck level. Why do they get bent? In my case I used to carry the spare halyard clipped to the pulpit. It sagged back a little and when I furled the headsail it got caught up in the sail. Result two  very  "bent sticks". That was in my first months of ownership. Needless to say for the last 10 years I have never carried the spare halyard there.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl 

On 13 May 2019 at 06:04 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

How critical are the 2 sticks/poles (perhaps called "cornes" in French?) that are bolted onto the top swivel of the genoa furling assembly?

Our SM was sold to us with just one of these installed on the starboard side. All it seems to do is occasionally make contact with the mast - gouging the aluminum and removing paint - and/or interfere with the second halyard. Wondering if it can just be removed or if we should source and install the second one on the port side?

Wouldn't the genoa halyard tension be enough to keep the top swivel in it's proper orientation?

With both sticks installed, are they supposed to make any contact with the mast or rigging? If not, what is their purpose? Only during extreme forces/emergency? 

I don't see anything like these on other boats (a most common thing with Amel design) so any insight or information is welcomed.

Thanks,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

JOHN HAYES
 

Mine is at deck level cause have just replaced the fore stay. Think you could easily make up a new one out of stainless and use a die to cut a new thread

Thanks for the fuel tube idea Danny. 

Best

John Hayes
NGA Waka SN41


On 13/05/2019, at 6:54 AM, SY STELLA <stella@...> wrote:

I’m interested in this subject too. I recently lost one of the black rubber/plastic covers from one of the ‘sticks’. I’d hate to think it was gouging the mast! 
I also have never seen these devices on other furling systems.
Maybe I need to get up there and wrap it in some self-vulcanising tape, or heatshrink sleeving??
Presumably Maud can supply new sleeves and sticks.
Dean
SY Stella 
A54-164

Miles
 

Hi Mike and Hannah,

 

The two sticks are important.  They guarantee that the halyard cannot ever wrap around the stay.  On many boats other than Amels, if there is any dirt or anything making the top swivel a little less than free, the halyard can wrap when you are trying to furl the sail.   This can happen in a blow and suddenly you cannot furl or drop the sail (guess how I know this).   Amel fits each stick with a rubber sleeve that protects the paint on the mast.  I would suggest that your order one stick and two rubber sleeves. 

 

As many people in this group have said, Amel never did anything without a reason.  The reason may not be obvious at first, but there is a reason.  When I bought my boat, Amel told me they would be interested in my comments, but not until I had sailed for at least a year.    They explained that in their experience, it would take at least a year for me to understand why they had done what they did.   In fact, it took longer and after 20 years I still come across cleaver bits that I had not noticed.

 

Regards,

 

Miles

 

s/y Ladybug, SM 216, Martinique

Martin Bevan
 

As others have stated, the two sticks are important. On our Atlantic crossing I found one on the deck, the anti vibration nut having vibrate off, I found the errant nut in the top swivel. In attempting to furl the Genoa the second “stick” sheered off. Not fully understanding what these metal stays did, we found out the hard way - without them furling results in slicing through halyards, inconvenient when the Cape Verde Islands are 100nm astern.  In this instance I had one stay as a pattern and as fortune would have it a length of stainless bar to fabricate a second. In Martinique in 2010 I purchased 4 spares which of course I have never required. 

Now to the point. We have replaced the original Bamar furler, foil and top swivel with a Reckmann. I therefore have 4 spares, which will work for a 54 or SM which I would be delighted to sell for €Offers plus the cost of P&P. Currently on board in Spain but I will be taking them back to the UK in June. 

I also have spare spare impellers for the original Reya water and air con pumps which have also been replaced if they are of interest to anyone.

Martin Bevan
Caduceus AMEL 54 #56
Sant Carles de la Rapita, Spain

Mike Ondra
 

After bending and straightening these (embarrassingly) twice, I replaced them. The ss rods are readily available on the internet and had a local machine shop cut the threads. (stainless being a bit difficult to thread cleanly). A couple of nuts and lockwashers and voilà.

Mike Ondra

Aletes SM#240

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of SY STELLA
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 2:55 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] The two "sticks" on the genoa top swivel

 

I’m interested in this subject too. I recently lost one of the black rubber/plastic covers from one of the ‘sticks’. I’d hate to think it was gouging the mast! 
I also have never seen these devices on other furling systems.
Maybe I need to get up there and wrap it in some self-vulcanising tape, or heatshrink sleeving??
Presumably Maud can supply new sleeves and sticks.
Dean
SY Stella 
A54-164

Gary Wells
 

A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

Dean Gillies
 

Martin,
I’m interested in the spare sticks. I’m in Porto right now heading North to the UK over the season. 
Can you please drop me an email, stella at soundthinking dot com dot au
cheers
Dean

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, <gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Mike,

a while back I posted a photo of a tongue that goes through the inner of the swivel and into the slot in the foil. This locates the center and prevents the scratching you mention. This tongue often wears through. A number of SM owners have found this. There is one important feature, which if missing allows this wear to occur. This is a nylon "pencil" that sits in the foil with a mating slot in it for this tongue. I believe this "pencil" is often lost when non Amel riggers are doing work. The tongue is secured by two grub screws easily accessed. I suggest you check for the tongue and the nylon pencil. I am picking you will find both missing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 20 May 2019 at 03:14 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, < gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

 

 

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thank you, Danny! We will definitely take a close look at the swivel regarding the tongue and nylon pencil. We very much appreciate the specialty Amel knowledge here!

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 2:31 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

a while back I posted a photo of a tongue that goes through the inner of the swivel and into the slot in the foil. This locates the center and prevents the scratching you mention. This tongue often wears through. A number of SM owners have found this. There is one important feature, which if missing allows this wear to occur. This is a nylon "pencil" that sits in the foil with a mating slot in it for this tongue. I believe this "pencil" is often lost when non Amel riggers are doing work. The tongue is secured by two grub screws easily accessed. I suggest you check for the tongue and the nylon pencil. I am picking you will find both missing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 20 May 2019 at 03:14 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, < gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

 

 



--
Mike & Hannah
SVTrilogy

 

Mike,

Here is a photo of what Danny describes:
image.png
Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:34 AM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thank you, Danny! We will definitely take a close look at the swivel regarding the tongue and nylon pencil. We very much appreciate the specialty Amel knowledge here!

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 2:31 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

a while back I posted a photo of a tongue that goes through the inner of the swivel and into the slot in the foil. This locates the center and prevents the scratching you mention. This tongue often wears through. A number of SM owners have found this. There is one important feature, which if missing allows this wear to occur. This is a nylon "pencil" that sits in the foil with a mating slot in it for this tongue. I believe this "pencil" is often lost when non Amel riggers are doing work. The tongue is secured by two grub screws easily accessed. I suggest you check for the tongue and the nylon pencil. I am picking you will find both missing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 20 May 2019 at 03:14 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, < gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

 

 



--
Mike & Hannah
SVTrilogy

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thank you, Bill!

Just a couple more questions about this top swivel regarding halyard and sail attachment... Is there a preferred method other than the big D shackle, which doesn't seem like a good fit, for attaching the halyard? And for the genoa, we have it tacked straight to the smaller D shackle at the bottom and some Spectra lashing it to the bottom of the top swivel. Are there better arrangements? Dyneema soft shackles for the top swivel attachments perhaps? Any issues with the genoa tack attaching straight to the bottom shackle? (there was a Spectra lashing here too originally).

Couple of photos are attached. As you can see, the sticks are installed with some colorful garden hose for protection, which was what we had available. Ends are capped off as well.

Regards,
Mike & Hannah


On Wed, 22 May 2019, 12:44 CW Bill Rouse, <brouse@...> wrote:
Mike,

Here is a photo of what Danny describes:
image.png
Best,

Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St.
Galveston, Texas 77550
832-380-4970



On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:34 AM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thank you, Danny! We will definitely take a close look at the swivel regarding the tongue and nylon pencil. We very much appreciate the specialty Amel knowledge here!

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 2:31 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

a while back I posted a photo of a tongue that goes through the inner of the swivel and into the slot in the foil. This locates the center and prevents the scratching you mention. This tongue often wears through. A number of SM owners have found this. There is one important feature, which if missing allows this wear to occur. This is a nylon "pencil" that sits in the foil with a mating slot in it for this tongue. I believe this "pencil" is often lost when non Amel riggers are doing work. The tongue is secured by two grub screws easily accessed. I suggest you check for the tongue and the nylon pencil. I am picking you will find both missing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 20 May 2019 at 03:14 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, < gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

 

 



--
Mike & Hannah
SVTrilogy

Paul Osterberg
 

Why not use a soft shackle? I have substituted a lot of SS for soft dyneeman. Added benefit make them myself cost less and are always available in the currect size
Paul on SY Kerpa SM 259 

 

Mike,

I apologize that I missed this message, but just saw it when Paul replied below. In the future, if you need to reach me directly use brouse"at"gmail.com.

NO, do not use a metal shackle.

Place a bowline with a small loop at the swivel end of the halyard. Make the bowline so that the "tail" is inside rather than outside the knot. This will keep the tail from interfering with anything. Now, with the bowline loop about 3-4" from the bottom of the swivel secure with a bowline to the loop a piece of 1/4" (8mm) kevlar, passing the kevlar through the loop and the hole in the swivel 3 times before securing the end of the kevlar. I usually use a stack of hitches to secure the kevlar with the last hitch going through the middle of the line loops rather than around all of them, When the halyard is tight this last pass through the middle gets pinched really tight.


--

 
Best,
 
Bill Rouse
Yacht School  
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Mike,

this week I fitted a new "pencil". I thought I would have to open up one or other of the ends of the track to get it in. It was too tight to enter where the track widens for the sail entry. I had looked at it and discarded the idea of getting it in there. Paul Smith (known to his friends as Buddha) of NZ Yacht Services Opua looked at the problem for me. He was fiddling with it in that widened slot area and agreed it was too tight. Then when my back was turned he gave it a light sharp blow with an alloy hammer. Bingo. Done. Well done Paul, saved potentially hours of work. I mention this as an advisory to the many I am sure need to do this. Then it was a simple matter with the swivel down to remove the tongue and re enter it into the pencil. I believe many will find the tongue is worn through and needs replacing so it would be wise to have both on hand when the job is undertaken. Amel have both parts available.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl. 

On 23 May 2019 at 04:34 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thank you, Danny! We will definitely take a close look at the swivel regarding the tongue and nylon pencil. We very much appreciate the specialty Amel knowledge here!

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 2:31 PM Danny and Yvonne SIMMS < simms@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

a while back I posted a photo of a tongue that goes through the inner of the swivel and into the slot in the foil. This locates the center and prevents the scratching you mention. This tongue often wears through. A number of SM owners have found this. There is one important feature, which if missing allows this wear to occur. This is a nylon "pencil" that sits in the foil with a mating slot in it for this tongue. I believe this "pencil" is often lost when non Amel riggers are doing work. The tongue is secured by two grub screws easily accessed. I suggest you check for the tongue and the nylon pencil. I am picking you will find both missing.

Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 20 May 2019 at 03:14 SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Thanks everyone for the informative responses on this topic. We're having a new set of horns fabricated and plan to cover them with some hose material. Anything one can do to reduce halyard wraps, cuts, jams, etc. is certainly worthwhile.

On a side note, while up at the masthead I noticed the foil/extrusion was heavily scratched around it's circumference for several inches right where the top swivel would sit. Perhaps there's an issue with our top swivel and it should be taken apart and serviced? Although while at deck level it spins easily and sounds very smooth. Or maybe the threads on the one horn we had up there were too long and made contact with the foil while furling? Just wondering if anyone has ever seen anything similar on their boat. Sorry no photo at the moment but I'll try and get one.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV Trilogy, SM#23
Panama


On Mon, 13 May 2019, 08:05 Gary Wells, < gary@...> wrote:
A short piece of fuel line and some contact cement make good "caps" for those 'horns'.
Having experienced a halyard wrap up there once, I wouldn't consider running without them.
If you are doing regular maintenance on the swivel then it's far less likely the horns would touch the mast, but if the swivel jams even slightly the horns are the best defense against getting the halyard wrapped and broken at the masthead.  
Can't really explain how I discovered this.  :)

Gary W.
SM 209, "Adagio"
Beaufort, NC USA

 

 

 

 



--
Mike & Hannah
SVTrilogy

Gary Wells
 

Mike, take a look at the photos Bill has posted.  There appears to me to be something missing from your swivel where the shackle is attached.  Mine, like the one in the photo, has a spacer fitted to keep that shackle away from the foil.  It would seem to me that if that shackle got pinched or caught sideways it could cause some scratching/damage to the foil up there.



Secondarily, I've tried a soft shackle at that point and even after polishing the pass-through point as best I could, it chafed very quickly so I think the metal shackle is the better idea. 

Gary W.
SM 209, Adagio
Galesville, MD USA