Greetings all,

Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

Thanks in anticipation ...

David
SM#396/Perigee
On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
  Departure for the Marquesas pending the
    return of the ONAN to service

Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.

Hi Mark,

 

Done.  Thanks.

 

David

 

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 30 May 2019 at 10:39 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

I was going to suggest the following but you beat me to it: 

"we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery"

However, I would suggest that you do this immediately so as to not risk damaging the other pairs. Especially if you want to wring a little more life out out of the remaining batteries in the bank.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.

Bill,

 

That is a deal!!! We will probably take her up on that before we head out to the Pacific.

 

On another note – I heard, meaning I do not know for a fact – Batteries are very inexpensive in FP due to subsidies provide from the French Government to encourage solar.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:16 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

 

David,

 

In Panama, you can contact Melani Beleño <compras.logistica@...> to have DEKA DC31DT lead acid batteries delivered to your boat at a dock

 

In April 2018 Melani wrote one of my clients the following: The price per units is $ 213.59, but We give you a special offer for $192.23 per units,  if you give us the used units could you have a extra discount. The cost of delivery is a $50.00 

 

Phone: (507) 322-3213 / 7 (507) 226-3693

 

 

Best,

 

Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St.

Galveston, Texas 77550

832-380-4970

My Calendar 

Yacht School

 

 

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that.  Yes, it’s all in the mix at the moment.

Lithium is not in the picture, mainly because of the need to change charging and management equipment & regimes.  Also, as you say, the risk of new tech on-board when heading out into the wilds.

I could grab some unknown-brand conventional GRP31 flooded lead acids for about USD200- per unit, available this week here in Panama.  Risk of early-failure, or short-life?  Hmmm – this is a big unknown, but have heard some horror-stories on batteries provided here in Panama.  BTW, standard no-name AGMs are about $450- here, off-the shelf.  But at least we’d be away.

Fireflies are under active consideration. Even if I might get one (or even two) dud batteries, I would still have 10 left – not ideal, of course, but still trucking.  With the ability for deeper discharge (than AGMs or conventional FLAs), having 5 pairs will give me approx. the same per-cycle capacity as 6-pairs of AGMs, with more cycles.

As it stands, I am running the risk-analysis on sailing away with only 5-pairs of my existing (3yo) AGMs operational (with one battery presently installed but not wired-in, held ‘in reserve’), knowing that I am exposed to losing another battery (or two).  Which would still leave me with 4-pairs, before I get the next opportunity replace the bank (in NZ or, under duress, in Tahiti).

It is an interesting dilemma to be facing.

I am open to all inputs and perspectives, just in case I am missing something in the heat of the moment.

Thanks again, and with kind regards also to Cindy please,

David&Leanne
SV Perigee, SM#396, Panama



On 30/5/19, 10:26 am, "Mark Erdos" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of mcerdos@...> wrote:

    Hi David,

    The biggest issue I have with specialty batteries is the fact you are getting ready to sail to areas of the world where a single replacement of a like battery would be a big issue. Should you have a failure of one battery, you may find yourself in a situation again where you need to replace the entire bank or eliminate a pair. As for the warranty, will they ship a replacement world-wide? If it were me, I would stick with what I know to be readily available throughout the world. Just my unsolicited 2¢ worth.


    With best regards,

    Mark

    Skipper
    Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
    Currently cruising - Panama
    www.creampuff.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Vogel
    Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:27 AM
    To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    Thanks Bill, for the double-barrel response,

    Batteries: We are leaning towards replacing the whole lot with FIREFLYs, per Bill KINNEY on Harmonie.  If this does not prove possible within a reasonable time frame, we will disconnect the pair containing the remaining single from the pair that contained the dud battery, and head on out, anticipating replacement in NZ late 2020 if we can keep things going for that long, otherwise Tahiti.

    ONAN: In addition to replacing the Starter and –ve solenoid, I went through all the troubleshooting steps as suggested and per the Service Manual – all apparently OK and with no change – still a failure to crank.  When I finally got the technicians on board, they poked around finding nothing and eventually plugged in an old Control-Board from an ONAN 21kVa Genset.  This, apparently, has enough commonality with the 7MDKAV to enable our unit to crank, start and run (for 3 seconds before the protective mechanisms engaged and shut the unit down; this test repeated 3 times).  Thereby indicating that all our switches, relays etc are OK, but the PCB itself is at fault.  We’re n
    ow trying to source one of these control boards.

    Cheers,

    David&Leanne, PERIGEE, SM#396, Panama
    Bound for French Polynesia


    From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
    Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
    Date: Sunday, 26 May 2019 at 1:30 pm
    To: <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
    Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries: single failed battery in the house bank, impact for other batteries

    I am not sure, and I believe you believe the same. With thousands of miles ahead of you and 3+ year old battery bank, I would consider changing the entire house bank, especially since getting 3-4 years is average for high-use Amels.

    Good on the lead acid start battery.

    When troubleshooting the Onan, I believe the weak point is the cable that runs inside from the negative connection post to the battery side of the Negative start solenoid.  The connection post where cables from the battery switches connect is located on the left side, facing, about half way down. I believe you can easily bypass this undersized cable by connecting a jumper from that connection post to the battery side of the negative start solenoid. You could also test the negative start solenoid by connecting that jumper cable to the starter side of the negative solenoid. 1 jumper cable can be used to test two items. If the problem turns out to be the negative start solenoid, don't leave that jumper on the starter side of the solenoid permanently.

    Best,

    CW Bill Rouse
    Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
    www.YachtSchool.us
    720 Winnie St
    Galveston Island, TX 77550
    +1(832) 380-4970

    On Sun, May 26, 2019, 11:24 AM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
    Greetings all,

    Whilst trouble-shooting an unserviceable ONAN (failure to crank), I checked out the health of the 105Ah 800CCA AGM start battery (good), and house-bank (12x105Ah AGMs).  Start and house batteries were all AGM, same model and date-of-install (Sep'16).

    All tested OK, with the exception of one battery in the house bank, which failed the State-of-Charge test with an Open-Circuit-Voltage (OCV) of 11.00V (as measured, so no surprises here), unstable; and failed State-of-Health of CCA of 35.0A).
    The other battery in the pair containing the failed battery surprisingly tested OK, with SoC 12.72V [92%] and SoH CCA of 642A [91%].

    As an interim step, whilst considering broader options ...
    ... I replaced the good start-battery with a 100Ah/700CCA flooded lead-acid battery; removed the failed AGM battery from the house bank, and replaced it with the 'good' AGM start battery.  The performance of the house battery bank immediately improved, I guess due to the absence of the parasitic load of the failed battery.

    However, concerned about the remaining battery in the new pair contained the failed battery, I have been keeping a close eye on the charge volts, current, and temps of all batteries.  24 hours after the swap-out/in, during the second charge cycle, I noted high charging current to the new battery-pair containing the old-start battery.

    The smart-charger was ordering ~150Amps from the 175A/24V Leece-Neville (normal for the start-of-charge-cycle) - 5 battery-pairs were accepting about 20Amps each (OK and as expected, at ~20% of the '20-hour rate' of 105Ah), but the 'at risk' pair was accepting 40 to 50Amps.  Temps for the 5 'good' pairs were about 1ºC above ambient and stable; but the temp of the questionable pair was ambient +2ºC and rising.  I stopped the charge cycle after 30 minutes; and isolated the questionable pair from the house-bank by removing the bridging strap between the batteries in the pair.  Shortly after the cessation of the interrupted charge cycle, the temperature of the high-current pair peaked at 36.5ºC (ambient other batteries +2.5ºC).

    I am seeking clarification regarding: Is is likely that the remaining battery from the 'old pair' had already suffered irreversible damage (such as an internal short), thereby reducing internal resistance, thereby accepting a higher charge (than the other 'good' battery pairs).

    On the basis of temperature alone , I do not think I have suffered temperature-related damage to the old start battery.  However:

    Question - is it likely that 30-minutes of charge at twice the maximum recommend bulk/absorption current charge-rate has resulted in permanent damage to the previously 'good' start-battery?

    This discussion shared for the learning, and also for the benefit of trouble-shooting by other unfortunates who may in future find themselves in a similar predicament.

    Thanks in anticipation ...

    David
    SM#396/Perigee
    On anchor, Brisas, Pacific side of Panama
      Departure for the Marquesas pending the
        return of the ONAN to service

    Diagnostic tools: Magneti Marelli BT002 Battery Tester; FLIR TG165 Spot Thermal Camera; Voltcraft VC-595OLED Digital Clamp Multimeter.
    Note: the OLED display on the Voltcraft multimeter is impossible to read in direct sunlight, so next time I would choose a model with a different type of display.  Otherwise, this is a great tool, although I do not use the BlueTooth functionality.