Topics

The Jordan Series Drogue


eric freedman
 

Kent and All,

The reason I asked about what the JSD is made of is because if you have the standard rope one as I do,  the blocks you would need to use are humongous . I think my bridle legs are at least 1 inch in diameter or possibly larger.

Below is a quote from Ace sailmakers with respect to the attachment points. I was going to say do not attach the bridles to the winches and the reason is stated in the quote.

 

With an arch I would suggest you reinforce the stern cleats or change them out for steel ones. The bridle will be inside the backstays when you deploy the drogue. You should also make a hollowed out wood block that will cover the stern chock as the drogue wants to keep going into the chock when it is recovered. This will rip the cones. Mine also has  a through bolt to keep it on the chock.

 

 

I forgot to mention to CHECK the cones and see if the larger ends have a hem on them. If not  the cones will eventually fray . I had to change mine out after the hurricane. The newer ones have hems. See above my old drogue photos after the hurricane. My drogue looked pretty sad after 36 hours of 100 knot winds . It started keeping us at 2 ½ knots and when we hauled it in we were doing just short of 4 knots.

It is amazing to watch the drogue work. See photos.

 

I was also asked about chafe gear. I have a bunch of heavy suede turnbuckle covers from a few boats ago.

I find these very handy for chafe gear all over the boat. They have Velcro inside, however my Velcro is long since gone and I use a few cable ties to keep them in place.  They are made by Edson , they come in 3 sizes and have lasted me over 22 years.

https://edsonmarine.com/leather-turnbuckle-covers-medium/

 

 

I have been thinking about moving my SSB antenna so I can deploy the drogue outside the backstays.

 

One last note , If you see a gigantic breaking wave coming at you, the boat will be going under water. It was amazing to see just the masts sticking out of the water and then Kimberlite just popped back up. One time I had to hold my breath for a few seconds as the water was very deep. We did not have a drop of water down below-Thank you Captain Henry. The cockpit drains in about 30 40 seconds.

 

We kept a person on watch in case a ship was going to run us down and we had to cut the drogue away.

We also had the cockpit enclosure up the entire time. After a while a few zippers started to go , we just sewed the enclosure closed.

Now I have a few web loops sewn into each side of the enclosure at the zippers and we can easily tie it together.

 

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

]

 

 

Attachments on the Hull 
The hull attachments for the drogue should be as far outboard and as far aft as possible.
I have no information on the ultimate strength of a typical sheet winch installation, and it would be difficult to evaluate each structure. Unfortunately, a winch is not an ideal structure, since the load is applied above the deck line and tends to overturn the winch and pull it out. The optimum attachment for the drogue is clearly a strap similar to a chainplate, bolted to the hull at the corners of the transom and extending aft with a shackle.

For a load of 14,000 lbs, a strap ¼ x 2.25 x 18 inches attached with six 3/8 bolts would provide a conservative design.

A large steel cleat would be acceptable if the deck is thick solid fiberglass and a steel plate is provided underne

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 11:39 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Storm tactics

 

Just now looking at that, Eric.  I was thinking/hoping that I could run the bridle thru blocks to the jib winches, but haven’t gotten far enough to know if that will work.

I have an arch that may complicate things even more.

Kent

S/V Kristy

SM 243


On Jul 25, 2019, at 12:17 AM, davidcbruce57@... wrote:

Hi All,  

 

Very interesting thread.  Eric, the Ocean Navigator article did not specify, but for some reason I assumed you used the stock stern cleats to affix the JSD during your hurricane encounter, if so how did that work?, if not did you install chainplates as attachment points.   Short of thru bolted chainplates, could one reinforce the existing cleats to allow for their use with the JSD.

 

Tangentially, I am curious, as a relative novice Amel owner how best to 'de pressurize' the sails when in a seaway and building winds in order to reef without stressing the furling motors.  Is releasing sheets generally sufficient or is it necessary to head to wind, which would seem to make a boat vulnerable or at least quite uncomfortable to beam seas.    

 

Thanks,  

 

Dave Bruce 

sv Liesse

SN006, Gaeta, Italy

 

 

On Jul 24, 2019, at 7:18 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,
Did you add the drogue attachment points that Jordan recommended ?
If not how are you going to attach it to your boat?
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376


-----Original Message-----
From: 
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 8:56 PM
To: 
main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Storm tactics

Hi Danny,
I carry a Jordan Drogue for a huge sea and 60+kts.  Hope I never have to use it.  If on a lee shore, I guess would have to try tacking under engine and ATN GaleSail.  We’re going to deploy the drogue and gale sail this fall and make sure we know how to use them and what they’ll do.

Does anybody know of a really good storm tactics hands-on class?

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM 243

On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent,
I agree with you. Done the same myself, both the reduction in sail as a windy thunderstorm approaches and the heaving to, although not for 48 hours. However 8 to 12 ft seas is one thing, oceanic monsters is another altogether and would need evaluation as to tactic. The ability to furl and unfurl sail rapidly is one of the many beauties of the Amel
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 24 July 2019 at 14:59 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,

We got caught in a slow moving front last spring with 35-40kts with gusts over 45 from the N (where we wanted to go).  We didn’t want to run S with the storm and lose a lot of ground, and tacking into 8-12 ft seas didn’t seem like much fun (and probably wouldn’t have gotten us very far N).  We hove to for almost 48 hours with a small handkerchief of jib and about 1/2 of the mizzen, drifting directly downwind.  The slick we created to windward calmed any breakers (only one small breaker slapped the boat in all that time), the motion was benign, and we lost only 50 miles in two days.

In thunderstorms with high winds, I reduce sail as the storm approaches, and if there is room, I keep the wind on the aft quarter until it abates.  It often changes direction continuously as the storm passes, it can take an hour or more until the prevailing winds return.

Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 23, 2019, at 10:28 PM, Mike Ondra via Groups.Io <mdondra@...> wrote:

During our recent passage from Boston to the Chesapeake Bay we experienced two severe thunderstorms. In one winds reached 40 kn sustained with gusts to 55 kn for about 10 minutes at the severest. Fortunately the storms were relatively short duration and the seas were confused  not having had a chance to organize and build significantly. Our tactic was to motor into the wind with bare poles. At 40+ knots even at full throttle we could barely maintain rudder control as we made way at around 2+/- knots: The wind would push the bow 20 to 30° off course before recovery under autopilot. We did not try hand steering as the auto pilot was doing an OK job in general. It’s seems that in any greater amount of wind or with a more significantly organized sea this tactic would have put us broadside to the wind and waves and then who knows what?
Drouges and see anchors make a lot of sense for longer duration storms.  Thoughts on storm tactics for short duration events such as this? 
Mike Ondra
Aletes SM 240
Rock Hall, MD

















 


eric freedman
 

I forgot to mention—this applies for Super Maramu’s,

On other boats or ones with arches, I would go stern to a long dock, possibly a T of a dock,  attach the bridles and pull the drogue out on the dock until you have the bridles all the way out. That will answer a lot of questions as to the mounting of attachment points.

 

I don’t think throwing the drogue in the water would be as helpful,

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: Kimberlite [mailto:kimberlite@...]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:19 PM
To: 'main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io'
Subject: The Jordan Series Drogue

 

Kent and All,

The reason I asked about what the JSD is made of is because if you have the standard rope one as I do,  the blocks you would need to use are humongous . I think my bridle legs are at least 1 inch in diameter or possibly larger.

Below is a quote from Ace sailmakers with respect to the attachment points. I was going to say do not attach the bridles to the winches and the reason is stated in the quote.

 

With an arch I would suggest you reinforce the stern cleats or change them out for steel ones. The bridle will be inside the backstays when you deploy the drogue. You should also make a hollowed out wood block that will cover the stern chock as the drogue wants to keep going into the chock when it is recovered. This will rip the cones. Mine also has  a through bolt to keep it on the chock.

 

 

I forgot to mention to CHECK the cones and see if the larger ends have a hem on them. If not  the cones will eventually fray . I had to change mine out after the hurricane. The newer ones have hems. See above my old drogue photos after the hurricane. My drogue looked pretty sad after 36 hours of 100 knot winds . It started keeping us at 2 ½ knots and when we hauled it in we were doing just short of 4 knots.

It is amazing to watch the drogue work. See photos.

 

I was also asked about chafe gear. I have a bunch of heavy suede turnbuckle covers from a few boats ago.

I find these very handy for chafe gear all over the boat. They have Velcro inside, however my Velcro is long since gone and I use a few cable ties to keep them in place.  They are made by Edson , they come in 3 sizes and have lasted me over 22 years.

https://edsonmarine.com/leather-turnbuckle-covers-medium/

 

 

I have been thinking about moving my SSB antenna so I can deploy the drogue outside the backstays.

 

One last note , If you see a gigantic breaking wave coming at you, the boat will be going under water. It was amazing to see just the masts sticking out of the water and then Kimberlite just popped back up. One time I had to hold my breath for a few seconds as the water was very deep. We did not have a drop of water down below-Thank you Captain Henry. The cockpit drains in about 30 40 seconds.

 

We kept a person on watch in case a ship was going to run us down and we had to cut the drogue away.

We also had the cockpit enclosure up the entire time. After a while a few zippers started to go , we just sewed the enclosure closed.

Now I have a few web loops sewn into each side of the enclosure at the zippers and we can easily tie it together.

 

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

]

 

 

Attachments on the Hull 
The hull attachments for the drogue should be as far outboard and as far aft as possible.
I have no information on the ultimate strength of a typical sheet winch installation, and it would be difficult to evaluate each structure. Unfortunately, a winch is not an ideal structure, since the load is applied above the deck line and tends to overturn the winch and pull it out. The optimum attachment for the drogue is clearly a strap similar to a chainplate, bolted to the hull at the corners of the transom and extending aft with a shackle.

For a load of 14,000 lbs, a strap ¼ x 2.25 x 18 inches attached with six 3/8 bolts would provide a conservative design.

A large steel cleat would be acceptable if the deck is thick solid fiberglass and a steel plate is provided underne

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 11:39 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Storm tactics

 

Just now looking at that, Eric.  I was thinking/hoping that I could run the bridle thru blocks to the jib winches, but haven’t gotten far enough to know if that will work.

I have an arch that may complicate things even more.

Kent

S/V Kristy

SM 243


On Jul 25, 2019, at 12:17 AM, davidcbruce57@... wrote:

Hi All,  

 

Very interesting thread.  Eric, the Ocean Navigator article did not specify, but for some reason I assumed you used the stock stern cleats to affix the JSD during your hurricane encounter, if so how did that work?, if not did you install chainplates as attachment points.   Short of thru bolted chainplates, could one reinforce the existing cleats to allow for their use with the JSD.

 

Tangentially, I am curious, as a relative novice Amel owner how best to 'de pressurize' the sails when in a seaway and building winds in order to reef without stressing the furling motors.  Is releasing sheets generally sufficient or is it necessary to head to wind, which would seem to make a boat vulnerable or at least quite uncomfortable to beam seas.    

 

Thanks,  

 

Dave Bruce 

sv Liesse

SN006, Gaeta, Italy

 

 

On Jul 24, 2019, at 7:18 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kent,
Did you add the drogue attachment points that Jordan recommended ?
If not how are you going to attach it to your boat?
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376


-----Original Message-----
From: 
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 8:56 PM
To: 
main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Storm tactics

Hi Danny,
I carry a Jordan Drogue for a huge sea and 60+kts.  Hope I never have to use it.  If on a lee shore, I guess would have to try tacking under engine and ATN GaleSail.  We’re going to deploy the drogue and gale sail this fall and make sure we know how to use them and what they’ll do.

Does anybody know of a really good storm tactics hands-on class?

Kent
S/V Kristy
SM 243

On Jul 24, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent,
I agree with you. Done the same myself, both the reduction in sail as a windy thunderstorm approaches and the heaving to, although not for 48 hours. However 8 to 12 ft seas is one thing, oceanic monsters is another altogether and would need evaluation as to tactic. The ability to furl and unfurl sail rapidly is one of the many beauties of the Amel
Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 24 July 2019 at 14:59 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:


Hi Mike,

We got caught in a slow moving front last spring with 35-40kts with gusts over 45 from the N (where we wanted to go).  We didn’t want to run S with the storm and lose a lot of ground, and tacking into 8-12 ft seas didn’t seem like much fun (and probably wouldn’t have gotten us very far N).  We hove to for almost 48 hours with a small handkerchief of jib and about 1/2 of the mizzen, drifting directly downwind.  The slick we created to windward calmed any breakers (only one small breaker slapped the boat in all that time), the motion was benign, and we lost only 50 miles in two days.

In thunderstorms with high winds, I reduce sail as the storm approaches, and if there is room, I keep the wind on the aft quarter until it abates.  It often changes direction continuously as the storm passes, it can take an hour or more until the prevailing winds return.

Kent
SM 243
Kristy


On Jul 23, 2019, at 10:28 PM, Mike Ondra via Groups.Io <mdondra@...> wrote:

During our recent passage from Boston to the Chesapeake Bay we experienced two severe thunderstorms. In one winds reached 40 kn sustained with gusts to 55 kn for about 10 minutes at the severest. Fortunately the storms were relatively short duration and the seas were confused  not having had a chance to organize and build significantly. Our tactic was to motor into the wind with bare poles. At 40+ knots even at full throttle we could barely maintain rudder control as we made way at around 2+/- knots: The wind would push the bow 20 to 30° off course before recovery under autopilot. We did not try hand steering as the auto pilot was doing an OK job in general. It’s seems that in any greater amount of wind or with a more significantly organized sea this tactic would have put us broadside to the wind and waves and then who knows what?
Drouges and see anchors make a lot of sense for longer duration storms.  Thoughts on storm tactics for short duration events such as this? 
Mike Ondra
Aletes SM 240
Rock Hall, MD