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Main sail Outhaul motor/gearbox failed A54


Stefan Schaufert
 

Dear AMEL Group/ Owners,

our main sail outhaul (gearbox) stopped 2 days ago just in the moment the main was completely furled in.
First we thought it is a kind of end-switch that stoped it and does not release.
But it never worked again.
Today I checked the entire system:
- by switching there is a clicking, thus the relays + switches are working
- I changed/swapped the cables from the mast furler with the boom outhaul (on the breakers, the current protectors and the relays): mast furler is working, boom not.
- I checked the gear box: the shaft (I guess with the worm drive - I can not open the box.) was about 1cm out of the gear box (the cover was kicked out - see picture with marking) + fully blocked. 
Was/Is the gear box broken or is it a safety thing? 
I pushed the shaft slowly (with a small hammer and a protector) back + put the cover on, then the shaft was turning again well and easy.
- I checked the motor: brushes are still very well, power comes, the motor turns (when not connected with the gear box AND when the cables on the current-protectors (What is the right name?) - see picture - are swapped). The motor turns not, when the current protectors are default connected (boom to boom, mast to mast).
- OK. I connected the motor again with the gearbox (current protectors still swapped). Motor turns short and stops, then trying to turn but does not make it.
- Swapped the cables for the current-protectors back (boom to boom, mast to mast). Mast is working, boom not (only the relay is clicking). 
But why is the mast furler working with the boom-current-protector and not the boom itself?
And, btw: there are 2 spare breakers 100A, but no slot for it???

Now I do not know:
Is it only the current-protector 
or 
the gear box too 
or 
the motor (which is looking very well)
Or all of it? 
 
I am looking forward for your help and really appreciate it.
 
Best regards
Stefan
A54 N°119 Lady Charlyette, currently Leixoes/Porto


Craig Briggs
 

HI Stefan,
Wow! This sounds like a good mystery!
I have inserted my thoughts in your post below in Red Type.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 03:55 PM, Stefan Schaufert wrote:
Dear AMEL Group/ Owners,

our main sail outhaul (gearbox) stopped 2 days ago just in the moment the main was completely furled in.
First we thought it is a kind of end-switch that stoped it and does not release.  No, there is no end-switch (like the one on your bow thruster - good guess, but not the cause)
But it never worked again. (It will!  It will ! :-)
Today I checked the entire system:
- by switching there is a clicking, thus the relays + switches are working Yes, that should be true. However, the low current electromagnet in the relay (contactor) could be OK and give you a "click" but the high voltage contacts could be bad and no current would go to the motor.  I think that is unlikely, so let's keep going.
- I changed/swapped the cables from the mast furler with the boom outhaul (on the breakers, the current protectors and the relays): mast furler is working, boom not. So the problem must be in the boom, not the mast, is what I think this means.  
- I checked the gear box: the shaft (I guess with the worm drive - I can not open the box.) was about 1cm out of the gear box (the cover was kicked out - see picture with marking) + fully blocked. OMG!! that's horrible - sounds like a REALLY bad gear box!  But let's keep going.
Was/Is the gear box broken or is it a safety thing? Gear box - there is no safety thing, definitely.
I pushed the shaft slowly (with a small hammer and a protector) back + put the cover on, then the shaft was turning again well and easy. Cool!
- I checked the motor: brushes are still very well (very good :-), power comes, the motor turns (when not connected with the gear box AND when the cables on the current-protectors (What is the right name?) (I think you mean the "relays" or also called "contactors" ) - see picture - are swapped). The motor turns not, when the current protectors are default connected (boom to boom, mast to mast). This is the boom motor, not the mast motor (which is OK) - correct?
- OK. I connected the motor (the boom outhaul motor, right?) again with the gearbox (current protectors still swapped). Motor turns short and stops, then trying to turn but does not make it. This really sounds like it's the gear-box (reductore in Italian, or reducing gear). 
- Swapped the cables for the current-protectors back (boom to boom, mast to mast). Mast is working, boom not (only the relay is clicking). Is it "trying" to turn, but stopping immediately? That is what it seems to me from reading your post.
But why is the mast furler working with the boom-current-protector and not the boom itself? It seems that is because the mast motor and gear are OK but the boom gearbox is preventing the boom motor from turning? The boom motor is trying to turn with electricity from either the boom relay or the mast relay. It can't turn when it is connected to the boom reduction gear because that gear is bad.  That is what it seems to me at this point - I may be wrong.
And, btw: there are 2 spare breakers 100A, but no slot for it??? I don't know about that - maybe they are just spares.

Now I do not know:
Is it only the current-protector I would guess that is not the problem
or 
the gear box too That seems like the problem to me.
or 
the motor (which is looking very well)Because both motors run fine without their gearboxes attached, they both seem OK.  Unless I did not understand something.
Or all of it? 
 
I am looking forward for your help and really appreciate it.
 
Best regards
Stefan
A54 N°119 Lady Charlyette, currently Leixoes/Porto


Scott SV Tengah
 

I agree, it sounds like the outhaul gearbox. I had the same failure a year ago and the symptoms were very similar to yours.

Mine had seawater mixed in with a bit of grease - I found this out when I tried to re-grease it, but it was too late, the gearbox was dead. Contact Maud at Amel and she'll sort you out. They didn't make my gearbox anymore, but with a lot of pictures, Maud figured out how to send me a current model that would work. 

PS - When I first got it, I was certain it was the wrong gearbox. A bit more playing around and I figured out that the spacer that was used for the old gearbox was not used with the new one. For better or worse, the new gearbox is sealed with gear oil.

Good luck.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Beaute Olivier
 

Hello Stefan,

the 100A fuse is a back-up when the power limiting Printed Circuit Board (what you call the Protector) is out of order. In order to connect this fuse, you need to remove both wires from the PCB (just pulling down) and connect them to the 100A fuse.

There seems to be a mechanic problem in the boom gear-box. And therefore, the PCB allows the motor to run for a few seconds, then cuts off power because of too high amperage (that's what it's designed for).
If you connect the back-up fuse, you may blow it within some seconds too because the mechanic resistance is too high, making the amperage rise above 100 A (you may also burn the wires too!!).

It seems that you need to take down the gear-box and open it to check the worm gear and the bronze "teeth wheel".
If you can't find a good skilled mechanic where you are, you may think of just replacing the gear-box (I don't like when you say the shaft went out of the gear-box...).

Good luck and remember to never hit the track end stopper with the traveller. This definitely kills the gear-box after several knocks.


Olivier


Stefan Schaufert
 

Dear Craig, dear Scott, dear Olivier,

thx a lot for all your fast responses, thoughts and hints, specially to you Olivier, for explaining the 100A fuses.
I already wrote to Maud and hope she will give me a fast response.
The next mechanic I will meet in 2.5 weeks. I will let him check the (old) gear box.

Best regards to all 
Stefan
A 54 N°119 Lady Charlyette, currently Leixos/ Porto


Craig Briggs
 

Yes, Stefan, glad that Olivier replied about the PCB providing the safety shutdown you mentioned, that I wasn't aware of.
Sounds like you're on the right path to getting this fixed. 
Craig


Courtney Gorman
 

Stephen the most difficult part of changing the Gear box is getting the old one off you MUST have a GOOD gear puller with multiple 'teeth' to get a hold of the old box it is in a difficult position.  I believe there is a detailed description and instructions on how and what you need in Bill's manual.  It took me hours to get if off without the proper tools no fun at all.  Everything else was easy.  Good luck and yes you do NOT use the spacer.
Cheers
Courtney
'Trippin'
54 #101 
Grenada


-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Schaufert <mail@...>
To: main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2019 6:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Main sail Outhaul motor/gearbox failed A54

Dear Craig, dear Scott, dear Olivier,

thx a lot for all your fast responses, thoughts and hints, specially to you Olivier, for explaining the 100A fuses.
I already wrote to Maud and hope she will give me a fast response.
The next mechanic I will meet in 2.5 weeks. I will let him check the (old) gear box.

Best regards to all 
Stefan
A 54 N°119 Lady Charlyette, currently Leixos/ Porto


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Is there is a routine maintenance schedule required/recommended for the outhaul/furler gear boxes? If so, I would appreciate some info on interval and procedure.

Respectfully;


Mohammad & Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099

On Aug 22, 2019, at 1:21 PM, Courtney Gorman via Groups.Io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:

Stephen the most difficult part of changing the Gear box is getting the old one off you MUST have a GOOD gear puller with multiple 'teeth' to get a hold of the old box it is in a difficult position.  I believe there is a detailed description and instructions on how and what you need in Bill's manual.  It took me hours to get if off without the proper tools no fun at all.  Everything else was easy.  Good luck and yes you do NOT use the spacer.
Cheers
Courtney
'Trippin'
54 #101 
Grenada


-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Schaufert <mail@...>
To: main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2019 6:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Main sail Outhaul motor/gearbox failed A54

Dear Craig, dear Scott, dear Olivier,

thx a lot for all your fast responses, thoughts and hints, specially to you Olivier, for explaining the 100A fuses.
I already wrote to Maud and hope she will give me a fast response.
The next mechanic I will meet in 2.5 weeks. I will let him check the (old) gear box.

Best regards to all 
Stefan
A 54 N°119 Lady Charlyette, currently Leixos/ Porto


 

Thanks Olivier for you very clear explanation.

Possibly the worm and bronze gears inside the gearbox are jammed for two reasons:

The bronze gear is very worn...AND...the helmsperson jammed the outhaul car against the track end-stop. I am fairly sure that you will need a gearbox overhaul or replacement, but you might try removing the end-stop to reduce the jammed pressure on the gears. Be careful not to operate the car too far forward, jamming it against the stop, or beyond the stop. With a worn bronze gear, this jamming will lock the gearbox. I have seen this happen on 54s and even a 2 year old 55. Be especially cautious with new crew as they will almost always misuse/abuse this. 

SM owners may not understand this, but most of this issue is because of a change in gearboxes and motors which is sleeker and better looking, but apparently doesn't take the accidental misuse/abuse that a SM  will take. But, of course, I have also seen accidental misuse kill a SM gearbox. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:40 AM Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io <atlanticyachtsurvey=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Stefan,

the 100A fuse is a back-up when the power limiting Printed Circuit Board (what you call the Protector) is out of order. In order to connect this fuse, you need to remove both wires from the PCB (just pulling down) and connect them to the 100A fuse.

There seems to be a mechanic problem in the boom gear-box. And therefore, the PCB allows the motor to run for a few seconds, then cuts off power because of too high amperage (that's what it's designed for).
If you connect the back-up fuse, you may blow it within some seconds too because the mechanic resistance is too high, making the amperage rise above 100 A (you may also burn the wires too!!).

It seems that you need to take down the gear-box and open it to check the worm gear and the bronze "teeth wheel".
If you can't find a good skilled mechanic where you are, you may think of just replacing the gear-box (I don't like when you say the shaft went out of the gear-box...).

Good luck and remember to never hit the track end stopper with the traveller. This definitely kills the gear-box after several knocks.


Olivier


Barry Connor
 

Hi Mohammad,

I changed mine last year whilst in Albania, the worm gear inside the gear box stripped when we were in Croatia. Amel Hyeres sent me a complete new gear box and I followed the forum post instructions by Alexandre to remove the old box. I could not get anyone to help me until I got to Albania, couple of trawler mechanics who understood about using a jack braced on the deck to push the drive pin out which was really seized into the box.
The old box was still full of the original grease so no need to service your new box. The old box had a good paint job/powder coating, the new box has a poor quality paint finish.
Whilst here in Antibes I am getting a paint mixed and then getting some spray can attachments to touch up all my small spots on the mast and boom that have started to bubble. I will also re-paint the boom gear box - sealer then primer and then top coat.
I am collecting this painting gear this later today and will send you the details.

Best Regards

Barry and Penny
"Lady Penelope II"
Amel. 54. #17
Antibes,  France

On Thursday, August 22, 2019, 3:16:42 PM GMT+2, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Thanks Olivier for you very clear explanation.

Possibly the worm and bronze gears inside the gearbox are jammed for two reasons:

The bronze gear is very worn...AND...the helmsperson jammed the outhaul car against the track end-stop. I am fairly sure that you will need a gearbox overhaul or replacement, but you might try removing the end-stop to reduce the jammed pressure on the gears. Be careful not to operate the car too far forward, jamming it against the stop, or beyond the stop. With a worn bronze gear, this jamming will lock the gearbox. I have seen this happen on 54s and even a 2 year old 55. Be especially cautious with new crew as they will almost always misuse/abuse this. 

SM owners may not understand this, but most of this issue is because of a change in gearboxes and motors which is sleeker and better looking, but apparently doesn't take the accidental misuse/abuse that a SM  will take. But, of course, I have also seen accidental misuse kill a SM gearbox. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 3:40 AM Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io <atlanticyachtsurvey=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Stefan,

the 100A fuse is a back-up when the power limiting Printed Circuit Board (what you call the Protector) is out of order. In order to connect this fuse, you need to remove both wires from the PCB (just pulling down) and connect them to the 100A fuse.

There seems to be a mechanic problem in the boom gear-box. And therefore, the PCB allows the motor to run for a few seconds, then cuts off power because of too high amperage (that's what it's designed for).
If you connect the back-up fuse, you may blow it within some seconds too because the mechanic resistance is too high, making the amperage rise above 100 A (you may also burn the wires too!!).

It seems that you need to take down the gear-box and open it to check the worm gear and the bronze "teeth wheel".
If you can't find a good skilled mechanic where you are, you may think of just replacing the gear-box (I don't like when you say the shaft went out of the gear-box...).

Good luck and remember to never hit the track end stopper with the traveller. This definitely kills the gear-box after several knocks.


Olivier


Scott SV Tengah
 

My old outhaul gearbox came with greasing points and it looked like it was that way from the manufacturer. Unfortunately, the bulbous cover that encapsulates the outhaul gearbox and motor is riveted on, so it's not designed for you to remove and service it. By the time I opened it, it was too late. I see that some of the older 54s have the outhaul gearbox/motor exposed, similar to the SMs. 

When I replaced the bulbous cover, I made two changes:

1) Drilled a few holes in the bottom so that water could drain out. Even if the cover is waterproof, water will enter from the vertical drive shaft and there isn't a way for it to get out. It became a saltwater bathtub.

2) Rather than use rivets, I got some tef-gel, liberally coated some stainless screws and screwed the cover back on. I know stainless screws on the aluminum boom isn't ideal, but I've been monitoring it and it seems the tef-gel is doing its job.

FYI, my new gearbox was not painted. That is, unless they painted it metal colored? :) And as I mentioned, it appears to be sealed and filled with gear oil.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com