Date
1 - 20 of 83
A54 fridge circulation pump
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I'll move the conversation to a new thread, but quick responses to close this one out. Please respond on the new thread entitled: "New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)"
Arno - what I like about Oliver's solution, if he can share info and we can replicate it, is that it uses the same pump head/water moving parts from the Flojet. I have two remaining Flojet pumps so I will place one complete original flojet pump next to the Frankenstein brushless pump. On my A54, two Flojets are placed side by side because I think Amel knew they die quite often. With the proposed setup, if the brushless pump dies in the middle of nowhere, I can quickly switch things over from one pump to the other, as I do now. Robert - we need a 10mm to 8mm "D" shaft reducer. Know where we can get that? Mark - I have the Marco pump for my FW system with an expansion tank. You NEED the expansion tank otherwise you will get mysterious leaks due to overpressure from the fw toilet water solenoids slamming shut when the pump is running. I got the 2l stainless one. As it relates to using a Marco for the fridge pump, another A54 Garulfo tried and the Marco overheats and dies even faster than the Flojet. So no go there. Brent - My understanding is that, despite the insulation replacement, Oliver is now getting 75% duty cycle now that he's in the tropics (versus single digit duty cycle in Portugal?). Regardless, if there's a brushless pump that doesn't die every 5-6 months, I will crawl on my knees to get it (kidding, sort of). I will say that my galley freezer/fridge has been turned off now that we're near reasonably well stocked grocery stores. This made a huge difference in energy consumption and pump duty cycle. The A54 setup has the water hoses daisy chained, whereas Frigoboat wants you to run them parallel. Earlier, my saloon freezer never really got that cold. I assume it's because by the time the cooling water got to it, the other two units had already heated up the water quite a bit. Now I just run the aft most front opening fridge and the saloon seat freezer. This makes a huge difference as the insulation on the galley top loading freezer is terrible as Oliver mentioned. Ours was soaked because the fridge would accumulate a lot of condensate water at the bottom and the junction between the stainless "box" and the PVC pipe that allows the compressor lines was NOT sealed well. I know this because after I cleaned out the box, water was bubbling UP from the insulation into the box at this junction. I sort of fixed it by applying sika291 at this junction and also filling the inside of the PVC (where the compressor lines run) with sika291. I had used the same expanding foam as Oliver prior but that simply got soaked and moldy. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Hi Carina, Oliver posted a very good 2 part video series on YouTube about the whole process. It isn’t for the faint of heart but it really does seem to be a worthwhile upgrade to extend your pump life and time on batteries. Enjoy!
Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caZtybwa0-Y Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFk5pz2zXI4 Brent Cameron, Future Amel owner & Amel Owner's Registry Moderator
-- Brent Cameron Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Mark & Debbie Mueller
The Marco pump works great as a fresh water pressure pump and is much quieter than the Amel OEM water pump. However, it is significantly noisier than the Flojet. You will wan to start thinking about some sound insulation when you use it as a raw water pump for the refrigeration system.
-- Mark Mueller Brass Ring A54
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Any of these fit your application? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=8mm+to+10mm+Bore+Stainless+Steel+coupling&
Regards, Robert Giroux Future Amel Owner
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 10:05 AM To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump
Scott, I know this thread should not be used and we should create a new one. I just "lost" 2 more refrigerator pumps. I took them to a motor rebuild shop in Annapolis, and they told me they are worn beyond repair.
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Jamie Wendell
Scott, I know this thread should not be used and we should create a new one. I just "lost" 2 more refrigerator pumps. I took them to a motor rebuild shop in Annapolis, and they told me they are worn beyond repair.
I saw your post about taking the leap into the brushless motor world, hoping to solve the pump dilemma. I will tell you I finally got the parts Oliver recommended - after almost 6 months. Unfortunately the motor he suggested has a 10mm diameter shaft. We need an 8mm shaft, so I cannot use that unless I create a reducer of some sort or order a different motor. I will try to get the controller working for curiosity, but without the ability to connect the motor to the pump, I will likely have to abandon the project and just keep buying Flojet 4106 pumps (the newer version I believe, vs 4105 series). I did notice that March Pumps offers a centrifugal pump driven by a brushless 24V motor. Although it is a bit expensive and only suitable (in its normal non-self-priming service) for salt-water cooling where the pump remains flooded, it might be worth buying it and using only the motor. If it works it would stop us having to buy many $100 motors that go bad in 6 months or less. The motor looks as if it will work directly with a steady 24V supply - no custom controller needed. Of course, the shaft would have to work here as well. If we can get the shaft to mate, all we would need is a relay to turn on the pump via a 24V supply in the engine room and the Frigoboat 12V output signal. May be worth a shot.................. Jamie Phantom A54 #44
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Hi Oliver, Di you have any photos from When you changed the insulation? We’re thinking of doing the same ...
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Hi Scott,
Hope you are doing well. I've looked into this problem as well. I tried to find an alternate waterpump but the 12 Volt/1-1.5 Amp requirement is not easy to satisfy. Replacing the motor with a brushless one is a very clever idea. Finding a suitable motor is not so easy though. Most of them require some external controller making installation complicated and a bit prone to errors. Also I'm not too happy with an untested motor/controller combo. What happens if this goes south somewhere in the Pacific. So careful selection of fuses is the least to do for this solution. Personally I would love to find a motor suitable for this application with integrated controller but I'm still searching. Until then I just keep a number of these Flojet pumps on stock and live with the life-expectancy. Regards, Arno Luijten SV Luna, A54-121
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Scott SV Tengah
We just had another Flojet pump die. This time after 5 months. Even better, it seems the Flojet 4105-343 pump we have been using is discontinued. I will take the leap to try Oliver's brushless pump solution.
Oliver - I just ordered the aliexpress pump/controller that you mentioned and would love to see your video. I sent an email a few months back but never heard back from you. Be great if you could post the fridge pump installation video on Youtube for everyone to see! One thing that may become an issue is that the diaphragm part of the Flojet pump (which is repurposed for Oliver's setup) is also a wear part. I know someone who uses Flojet pumps in their coffee business and his pumps die when the diaphragms fail. Good thing I have a handful of used diaphragms from my multiple failed Flojets. :) Anyone else try Oliver's solution (or any other pump) and succeed? -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Hello, My pump is based on a brushless motor, not a stepper motor. You asked me about building an "adapter" from old fridge system to VESC conrolled brushless pump. My adapter replaces the original controll box. It has the following features: 1. If any fridge freezer signals cooling needs, it activates the VESC brushless pump. 2. Rpm can be regulated from 0 to 100% 3. Pump can be stopped by switch 4. LED display of operation. Flash every 10 sec in standby. Flasch every sec when pump is active. 5. Energy consumption. In standby some mycro uA. In operation about 15 mA. 6. Connections - 24 Volt - serial port VESC - signal wires coming from fridges freezers As I understand, you ordered the VESC and the brushless motor yourself? Please contact me by my email, I like to send you a Video how the Pump is setup. Fair winds Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 Martinique
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:47 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote: Oliver -
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Mark & Debbie Mueller
Hope the new pump works out, it would be nice to find a substitute for the Flojet. When you get it installed if you have a question about the flow due to the head pressure measure the discharge rate where it exits the hull and see if the volume is adequate. Good luck.
-- Mark Mueller Brass Ring A54
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Scott SV Tengah
Oliver -
Any luck with this? I also appreciate Thomas and others' willingness to translate engineer speak into something us laymen will understand. :) -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Do you mean brushless, or stepper motor? Two different animals, though both are brushless.....
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
~~~⛵️~~~Matt
On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:53 PM, Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@...> wrote:
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Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Hello, I will answer tomorrow more in detail bcs its late now. So far just a word in advance to prevent from guessing too much. 1. A brushless motor as we use it is in no way a motor where you just hook up some power and it starts turning. These motors need a precise timing on their coils there fore they are: -Highly efficient -light weight -very powerfull -rpm controllable -no wear parts exept ballbearings -ignitionproof 2. They are controlled by micro computers. The microcomputer connects to the AMEL hardware. There are no rellays involved. Relays are inefficient. I can provide a design note, its manly only 3 component groups, but it will not help anybody because the involved software is the key. 3. Yes, I am willing to set up a pump system that is simple to install and replaces the old pump. I imagine it will be just a modern replacement to get rid of the problems. Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 Martinique
On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 09:44 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote: Oliver,
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Sv Garulfo
Hi Bill, Being the thread OP, i agree it’s getting a bit too long and confusing. We can agree that there isn’t yet a final, definitive answer to the original question about the best way to address the longevity issues of the A54 fridge circulation pump. Ideally, Oliver would write up and share a document that interested owners (including myself) can review, extend and finalise for laymen to potentially implement his solution. Ideally, Oliver would also gather data about performances of his setup in tropical waters, much warmer than Portugal’s, to ensure the improvement still exists and may therefore help most of the ‘disappointed’ users. Best regards, Thomas & Soraya, GARULFO A54-122 Nuku Hiva, French Polynesia
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 08:34, Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote: Thanks Bill. I agree with you completely, as I am one of the 2 whom I believe have ordered the parts Oliver noted.
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Jamie Wendell
Thanks Bill. I agree with you completely, as I am one of the 2 whom I believe have ordered the parts Oliver noted.
I remain a bit confused myself, but I do intend to do my own homework and see if I can make his ideas work for me. In the event I am successful, I will report exactly what I did for others to consider. I would do so in a new thread, so as not to continue this one. I hope that is acceptable to everyone out there. Over and out for now. Thanks, Jamie Phantom A54 #44
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Scott, Oliver states: "This adapter is hooked up
directly to the E51385 Box" Again, you found the exact question to ask. What is the "adapter?" My guess also is that the "adapter" is a relay, taking 12 volts from the Danfoss "fan" output on one side of the relay, and closing 24 volts on the other side of the relay, thus energizing a 24-volt circuit to the VESC which utilizes programmable logic and different sensors to energize a 24-volt pump motor. I believe that this "relay" would need to be installed for each of the refrigeration units. If that is true, and the primary goal is to get longer life from the motor, then why not simply use all of the existing Amel installed components, including the E51385 pump controller, except substitute a 12-volt brushless motor for the Flowjet motor? I believe that Oliver has designed and installed something that works well for him, but we are 68 messages in this thread and the system Oliver designed still eludes enough description for even an electrical engineer to duplicate. I really think that I should shut this thread down because it is very misleading to all of the non-engineers, who happen to be a very large majority of our members. In fact, we are still guessing about this system. I saw where one member has already ordered some components. But, I am very interested in the specifics of Oliver's solution. If we cannot get to a specific duplicatable plan, I will shut this thread down and those interested will need to contact Oliver directly and off-group.
On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:44 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote: Oliver,
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Scott SV Tengah
Oliver,
Thanks for responding. I think you have the best solution we have heard of - we will all be very grateful if we can solve this annoying problem. A few questions for you: 1) Will you be willing to sell me this "more simple adapter"? You're obviously far more versed in electrical engineering than I am. I currently have the setup with 1 fridge and 2 fridge/freezers which each have a Frigoboat W50F compressor. The 1 fridge has a built in thermostat and the 2 fridge/freezers have this thermostat: https://penguinfrigo.co.uk/product/frigomatic-twin-thermostat-for-fridge-or-freezer/. Those are fed to the E51385 Box. 2) My system uses fresh water to cool the fridges. I assume I can put a temp sensor in the freshwater return? The additional complication not necessary for me, but if you think it drastically improves efficiency, I'm willing to do it. 3) Also, given my basic setup, is there a way to coordinate the compressor run times without adding the MCU? I believe I could reduce pump duty cycle if the fridges/freezers would try to run at the same time. Again, if it's too complicated, I don't need it. 4) Is there a 12v pump available? I would rather use the 12v output of the E51385 than put in another relay. I would assume if I use a 24v motor, the way to get 24v would be to use the E51385 output to control a Hella relay, which would then pass through 24v that I get from the posts near the chain wash pump. Since I'm at 80%+ duty cycle, I would rather not have a relay that is energized all the time for heat, longevity and energy consumption reasons. Your solution is the best we've seen and I'm sure many of us will want to copy it. I'm hoping it is something that can be installed and managed by someone without your technical skills. Thanks in advance -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com
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Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Hi Bill, I went out for sailing for the last couple of month and was not able to answer the questions that my thread implied. As there is so much response to this topic and I am a bit more station, I will try to point this topic in the right direction. I am now on Martinique and helping also other boats with technical issues. In the following I will give answers to your commented questions. My (Oliver) statements and Bills comments in red. My (Oliver) answers under it.
a) a 24 V brushless pump, as the name says no wear on brushes like before, only the ballbearings wear and they are easy to change and cost 2 usd. Beside that the original quad pumphead is reused. Most of us got a bag of spares from the old worn pumps. I would go with AMELs 24 V as 12V is a step back and we like to have a well powered pump. b) A brushless motor needs a driver. In this case a VESC is used to controll the motor. VESC is short for Vedder Electronic Speed Controller designed by a clever swedish guy as open surce project. Version 3.x will do. c) to tell the VESC the speed to spinn the motor and start or stop the motor, I use an Microcontroller (MCU) that sends serial commands. This MCU replaces in my setup the E51385 box and the thermostats in the fridge/freezer because the MCU can do much more than only switch the motor on / off. Its the brain of the cooling installation on my boat and provides advanced efficency. To 2. Yes, the VESC controlls the motor speed. To 3. NMEA2K is in this stage of the project not used to controll the system. It only provides system data, like temperatures, to other NMEA2K devices as user information. To 4. The controller is the MCU described above. To 5. This logic is programmed in the MCU that controlls it all. As I said the brain of the system that controlls and comunicates. To 6. See description above. The VESC offers, beside the serial port, a second port, where a servo controller can be used. There is no option on the VESC to be switched on/off by 12V or a Relay, its not designed for this purpose. Please read my more simple aproach below. I designed a more simple adapter with a bit less efficency but that does not need the MCU. This adapter is hooked up directly to the E51385 Box at the pump connection instead of the pump. The adapter tells the VESC to start /stop the pump and adapts the rpm according to the raw water temperature at the raw water manifold. And provides 24 V to the VESC. I guess this is what most owners prefer without need to change the complete cooling controll. It just replaces the brushed pump by a brushless pump and the brushless motor controller. Problem solved. Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 Martinique
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 15:11 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
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Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Hi Bill, I went out for sailing for the last couple of month and was not able to answer the questions that my thread implied. As there is so much response to this topic and I am a bit more station, I will try to point this topic in the right direction. I am now on Martinique and helping also other boats with technical issues. In the following I will give answers to your commented questions. My (Oliver) statements and Bills comments in red. My (Oliver) answers under it.
a) a 24 V brushless pump, as the name says no wear on brushes like before, only the ballbearings wear and they are easy to change and cost 2 usd. Beside that the original quad pumphead is reused. Most of us got a bag of spares from the old worn pumps. I would go with AMELs 24 V as 12V is a step back and we like to have a well powered pump. b) A brushless motor needs a driver. In this case a VESC is used to controll the motor. VESC is short for Vedder Electronic Speed Controller designed by a clever swedish guy as open surce project. Version 3.x will do. c) to tell the VESC the speed to spinn the motor and start or stop the motor, I use an Microcontroller (MCU) that sends serial commands. This MCU replaces in my setup the E51385 box and the thermostats in the fridge/freezer because the MCU can do much more than only switch the motor on / off. Its the brain of the cooling installation on my boat and provides advanced efficency. To 2. Yes, the VESC controlls the motor speed. To 3. NMEA2K is in this stage of the project not used to controll the system. It only provides system data, like temperatures, to other NMEA2K devices as user information. To 4. The controller is the MCU described above. To 5. This logic is programmed in the MCU that controlls it all. As I said the brain of the system that controlls and comunicates. To 6. See description above. The VESC offers, beside the serial port, a second port, where a servo controller can be used. There is no option on the VESC to be switched on/off by 12V or a Relay, its not designed for this purpose. Please read my more simple aproach below. I designed a more simple adapter with a bit less efficency but that does not need the MCU. This adapter is hooked up directly to the E51385 Box at the pump connection instead of the pump. The adapter tells the VESC to start /stop the pump and adapts the rpm according to the raw water temperature at the raw water manifold. And provides 24 V to the VESC. I guess this is what most owners prefer without need to change the complete cooling controll. It just replaces the brushed pump by a brushless pump and the brushless motor controller. Problem solved. Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 Martinique
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Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Hello, My VESC gets its 24V power from 24V Emgine room point. It gets serial bus commands from an ARM32 MCU. My system takes temperatures from inside freezer, fridge, compressor fridge, compressor freezer, raw water temperature in its calculation to controll all cooling needs. It adapts the raw water cooling pump speed according to sea water temperature and compressor temp. This might be over kill but provides the most efficient operation. As you got already digital controlls you may only like to switch the cooling pump. It would be still possible to adjust the motor speed to raw water temp. If you cant setup your own controller I could provide a unit, based on my software, adapted to digital thermostats. My unit also writes a protocoll of the operating times of fridge / freezer and temperature curve with alarms. Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 Martinique
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 13:54 Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote: Oliver, I just ordered the Censored Motor and VESC Controller from AliExpress. I am going to try to hook all this up and see if I can get it to work for my 3-fridge system.
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