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Leece -Neville Alternator external regulator install


Dan Carlson
 

Doe anyone have a photo or two from installing an external regulator on their Leece-Neville 175amp alternator?  I have the wiring diagrams from a previous post but was wondering if someone had an actual photo of the wire that needs to be snipped? And any additional tips or caveats? 

I will be installing the WakeSpeed WS500 regulator. The wiring to the alternator for the WS500 looks very similar to the Balmar 624.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on SM#387, sv BeBe


Alan Leslie
 

Dan
I'm pretty sure that Bill and I put up all the relevant stuff.  I did it with a Next Step reg, but basically the wiring will be similar.
The wire you need is the field connection from the alternator, that's what the reg uses to control alternator output.
One caveat on this whole scenario is that you need to realise that the LN 175A alternator is not continuously rated 
So, with a 3 stage reg, if your batteries are quite discharged, the reg could command full output from the alternator and if your batteries are able to accept 175A, that's what you'll get... For a while until the alternator burns out! 
Solution is to also run the genset and the 100A charger until the charging current gets down to about 100A them turn off the genset.
Best solution is actually to change the alternator to an Idlepro Extreme or. Delstar, both of which can put out around 200A at just above idle.

You don't need to ask how I know this! 

Good luck

Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Dan Carlson
 

Thanks Alan,

That's helpful about the LN175 not being continuously rated. I had not seen that. In fact had seen that large body alternators loke the LN175 were better for handling the load.  That said, the WS500 regulator monitors both voltage and current at the battery and has a dip switch which will limit the alternator to 75% current output, it also has a temperature monitor that bolts onto one of the lugs which will also limits output based on alternator temperature.  And finally I will have a switch that I can flip to force the alternator into float mode. 

I will review the previous posts and pictures to see if there is anything that I have missed. 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM# 387






On Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 12:01 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Dan
I'm pretty sure that Bill and I put up all the relevant stuff.  I did it with a Next Step reg, but basically the wiring will be similar.
The wire you need is the field connection from the alternator, that's what the reg uses to control alternator output.
One caveat on this whole scenario is that you need to realise that the LN 175A alternator is not continuously rated 
So, with a 3 stage reg, if your batteries are quite discharged, the reg could command full output from the alternator and if your batteries are able to accept 175A, that's what you'll get... For a while until the alternator burns out! 
Solution is to also run the genset and the 100A charger until the charging current gets down to about 100A them turn off the genset.
Best solution is actually to change the alternator to an Idlepro Extreme or. Delstar, both of which can put out around 200A at just above idle.

You don't need to ask how I know this! 

Good luck

Alan
Elyse SM 437 


rossirossix4
 

Dan and Alan-
Fascinating stuff (as I think ahead to a lithium conversion).  This video does a good job of discussing and demonstrating what you are writing about AND talks about problems with low RPM/high charging situations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

Bob, KAIMI SM429
Trying to save up money for them thar newfangled Lithiums


Alan Leslie
 

Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Dan Carlson
 

Does anyone know what the safe continuous output for the LN175 would be? Or any information on the out put curve specific to this alternator.  I don't recall seeing it. Just the 175 amp rating. 


On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:18 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello Dan,

I used the VSR sailors project regulator from Al Thomason. 
I am very satisfied with it. 
Since then I dont have wear off pullys and the regulator offers all parameters to customize beside all standard charge programs. 

I dont know if my wiring or fotos will help you? 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 13:43 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Does anyone know what the safe continuous output for the LN175 would be? Or any information on the out put curve specific to this alternator.  I don't recall seeing it. Just the 175 amp rating. 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:18 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Dan Carlson
 

Thanks for the information Oliver.

Do you have the Leece Neville 175A alternator on your boat?  If so the one picture that would be helpful is the actual wiring of the regulator behind the cap and the new connections into it.   And also if you have the LN175, it would be helpful to know the max current that you draw from it? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387, Shelter Bay, Panama



On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 3:13 AM Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@... wrote:
Hello Dan,

I used the VSR sailors project regulator from Al Thomason. 
I am very satisfied with it. 
Since then I dont have wear off pullys and the regulator offers all parameters to customize beside all standard charge programs. 

I dont know if my wiring or fotos will help you? 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 13:43 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Does anyone know what the safe continuous output for the LN175 would be? Or any information on the out put curve specific to this alternator.  I don't recall seeing it. Just the 175 amp rating. 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:18 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Helli Dan,

Yes i got the 175A Alternator with double pully belt setup. 

At this time I limited the current to max 90 A. I could do more but I dont need to. I installed a 14.4 kWh Lithium batterie and most times when cruising I arrive with 90% charged batterie. The good side is also there is no more worn belts because the permanent load is lower now.

Do you have the Leece Neville document TSB-1139_8SC_WIRING_DIAGRAM?

Thats what I used to identify the connections. If you need to access the fiel contacts you may get the replacement back cap or just drill a wider hole through the original and use a hear resistant silicone wire and heat resistent gasket maker Silikone to access the field contact.

To access the stator I disconnected the original regulator and used the upper slot to pass the wires. I set the old regulator back as cap, disconnected. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 13:18 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Thanks for the information Oliver.

Do you have the Leece Neville 175A alternator on your boat?  If so the one picture that would be helpful is the actual wiring of the regulator behind the cap and the new connections into it.   And also if you have the LN175, it would be helpful to know the max current that you draw from it? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387, Shelter Bay, Panama



On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 3:13 AM Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@... wrote:
Hello Dan,

I used the VSR sailors project regulator from Al Thomason. 
I am very satisfied with it. 
Since then I dont have wear off pullys and the regulator offers all parameters to customize beside all standard charge programs. 

I dont know if my wiring or fotos will help you? 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 13:43 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Does anyone know what the safe continuous output for the LN175 would be? Or any information on the out put curve specific to this alternator.  I don't recall seeing it. Just the 175 amp rating. 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:18 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Dan Carlson
 

Thanks for the reply Oliver,

Very helpful information.  The Wakespeed 500 regulator has a dip switch setting that limits the alternator to 75% or 130 Amps (or further with programing). It will further limit output if the temperature goes up to high.  And I have a switch that can also set it directly to float charge level (current flow neutral).

I do have the wiring diagram you referenced as well as one from this forum with some specific notes on where wires connect.  But your comments on the how you modiifed the existing regulator cap for the wiring are very helpful.

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387






On Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 1:08 PM Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@... wrote:
Helli Dan,

Yes i got the 175A Alternator with double pully belt setup. 

At this time I limited the current to max 90 A. I could do more but I dont need to. I installed a 14.4 kWh Lithium batterie and most times when cruising I arrive with 90% charged batterie. The good side is also there is no more worn belts because the permanent load is lower now.

Do you have the Leece Neville document TSB-1139_8SC_WIRING_DIAGRAM?

Thats what I used to identify the connections. If you need to access the fiel contacts you may get the replacement back cap or just drill a wider hole through the original and use a hear resistant silicone wire and heat resistent gasket maker Silikone to access the field contact.

To access the stator I disconnected the original regulator and used the upper slot to pass the wires. I set the old regulator back as cap, disconnected. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 13:18 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Thanks for the information Oliver.

Do you have the Leece Neville 175A alternator on your boat?  If so the one picture that would be helpful is the actual wiring of the regulator behind the cap and the new connections into it.   And also if you have the LN175, it would be helpful to know the max current that you draw from it? 

Thanks and regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387, Shelter Bay, Panama



On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 3:13 AM Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@... wrote:
Hello Dan,

I used the VSR sailors project regulator from Al Thomason. 
I am very satisfied with it. 
Since then I dont have wear off pullys and the regulator offers all parameters to customize beside all standard charge programs. 

I dont know if my wiring or fotos will help you? 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Gran Canaria SPAIN 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 13:43 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Does anyone know what the safe continuous output for the LN175 would be? Or any information on the out put curve specific to this alternator.  I don't recall seeing it. Just the 175 amp rating. 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:18 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@... wrote:
Yes Bob,
Traditional alternators can be a problem.
Remember though that on our boats there is a 1:2 ratio between engine rpm and alternator rpm so when the engine is doing 1000rpm the alternator is doing 2000.
This is where alternators like Delstar and Idlepro Extreme come into their own. These are 220/250amp alternators that can deliver 80-90% of rated output @ 2000 alternator rpm.
The standard LN175 can't do that and if you increase the rpm to produce more amps it will only do it for a while before everything turns to custard. 
We have big battery banks that can have very high charge acceptance rates with AGM,  firefly or lithium batteries,  so you need to think about these things very carefully in designing and operating a system that will achieve what you want safely.
Cheers 
Alan
Elyse SM 437 


Kevin Fox
 

Dan,

I'm planning to install the Wakespeed WS500 on Rascal.  We have the Leece Neville 175A alternator and AGM batteries, and this regulator sounds like the way to go.  May I ask how your install turned out?  Any surprises with the wiring?  Where did you end up mounting the regulator?

Thanks very much,
Kevin


--
Kevin Fox and Family
SM404 Rascal
Currently berthed in Charleston, SC


Dan Carlson
 

Hello Kevin,  I am very happy with the WakeSpeed 500.  

Here is a photo of my install. I attached a plywood mounting board to the aft bulkhead of the engine room, behind the engine/alternator. (With some rubber spacers between the bulkhead and the board for the sound insulation.

This board has the WS500 control box and a Sterling Alternator Protection device to dissapate a voltage spike if the BMS disconnected the batteries. I also installed a simple toggle switch just above the. Controller that.allows me to manually switch the controller directly to "Float" stage. You can also see the wiring on the alternator in the foreground of the photo.

I used the standard lithium setting on the WS500 (dip switches), including the setting for 75% max output. 

On Bulk stage I've seen a max of ~130amps and a max temperature on the alternator casing of ~160F. The output current carries appropriately with engine RPM.   I have not logged too many hours on "Bulk" but belt tension and wear has been fine.  When I set the controller directly to float stage I've seen about 70amp output that tapers off to zero net current as the battery voltage reaches 26.72v. The temp on the alternator casing reaches about 125 F. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387, currently in Les Saintes, Guadelopue.


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 7:20 PM Kevin Fox via groups.io <foxkm=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Dan,

I'm planning to install the Wakespeed WS500 on Rascal.  We have the Leece Neville 175A alternator and AGM batteries, and this regulator sounds like the way to go.  May I ask how your install turned out?  Any surprises with the wiring?  Where did you end up mounting the regulator?

Thanks very much,
Kevin


--
Kevin Fox and Family
SM404 Rascal
Currently berthed in Charleston, SC


Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

1. This setUp looks very similar to mine. 
I use the VSR alternator regulator from cruisers project. 

2. I would suggest to place the old unused regulator back in place. On the pictures all coil connectors are open jet. As the old regulator has a gap on top of its housing its possible to route the wires through. By that the wires are not unprotected open. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 09:19 Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...> wrote:
Hello Kevin,  I am very happy with the WakeSpeed 500.  

Here is a photo of my install. I attached a plywood mounting board to the aft bulkhead of the engine room, behind the engine/alternator. (With some rubber spacers between the bulkhead and the board for the sound insulation.

This board has the WS500 control box and a Sterling Alternator Protection device to dissapate a voltage spike if the BMS disconnected the batteries. I also installed a simple toggle switch just above the. Controller that.allows me to manually switch the controller directly to "Float" stage. You can also see the wiring on the alternator in the foreground of the photo.

I used the standard lithium setting on the WS500 (dip switches), including the setting for 75% max output. 

On Bulk stage I've seen a max of ~130amps and a max temperature on the alternator casing of ~160F. The output current carries appropriately with engine RPM.   I have not logged too many hours on "Bulk" but belt tension and wear has been fine.  When I set the controller directly to float stage I've seen about 70amp output that tapers off to zero net current as the battery voltage reaches 26.72v. The temp on the alternator casing reaches about 125 F. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387, currently in Les Saintes, Guadelopue.


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020, 7:20 PM Kevin Fox via groups.io <foxkm=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Dan,

I'm planning to install the Wakespeed WS500 on Rascal.  We have the Leece Neville 175A alternator and AGM batteries, and this regulator sounds like the way to go.  May I ask how your install turned out?  Any surprises with the wiring?  Where did you end up mounting the regulator?

Thanks very much,
Kevin


--
Kevin Fox and Family
SM404 Rascal
Currently berthed in Charleston, SC


Kevin Fox
 

Dan - Thanks very much for your detailed response and photo.  I appreciate your help.  I hadn't considered the Sterling alternator protector as we don't (yet) have LiFePO4 batteries, but installing one now wouldn't hurt.  I worry about one of us trying to stop the Yanmar with the ignition key switch and damaging the alternator.

Do you use a current shunt with the WS500 or is it only monitoring voltage?  We have a Victron BMV-700.  I don't know whether the shunt for the battery monitor could be shared with the regulator (haven't looked into it).

Oliver - Thank you for your suggestion regarding using the old regulator as a protective cover.  I will heed your advice.

--
Kevin Fox and Family
SM404 Rascal
Currently berthed in Charleston, SC


Dan Carlson
 

Kevin, I used the same shunt as the Victron BMV712.  The shunt creates a voltage potential difference across it as current changes. Multiple devices can read this potential difference without significant change in the resulting measurement.  You need about 40-50 feet of  four strand, 16 gauge wire to get from the back of the engine room up behind the helm station and instruments and they the conduit into the passagway and then back down to the battery box for the wires that provide the WS with voltage and current.  The voltage needs to come directly from the batteries not from the alternator. I am getting both the current and then battery voltage at the shunt.   The WS 500 comes with good supporting documentation.  It's worth making sure you read through it all.

Oliver, I had read your too about using the old regulator as a cap, and it was my plan. However, I was not quite right in planning how I brought the wires out of the cap covering the brushes and they interfere with the putting themold regulator back on.  I did preserve the ability to rewire the old regulator back on if necessary.


Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe,SM #387, currently in Les Saintes





On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, 5:25 PM Kevin Fox via groups.io <foxkm=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Dan - Thanks very much for your detailed response and photo.  I appreciate your help.  I hadn't considered the Sterling alternator protector as we don't (yet) have LiFePO4 batteries, but installing one now wouldn't hurt.  I worry about one of us trying to stop the Yanmar with the ignition key switch and damaging the alternator.

Do you use a current shunt with the WS500 or is it only monitoring voltage?  We have a Victron BMV-700.  I don't know whether the shunt for the battery monitor could be shared with the regulator (haven't looked into it).

Oliver - Thank you for your suggestion regarding using the old regulator as a protective cover.  I will heed your advice.

--
Kevin Fox and Family
SM404 Rascal
Currently berthed in Charleston, SC