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Dripless shaft seal

Arlo
 
Edited

Hello all. I plan to have my cutlass bearing replaced soon and want to use the opportunity to install a dripless shaft seal. I have a 1985 Mango. Looking at both the PSS and Tides systems. Anyone have experience either ? My mechanic is saying he recommends the tides as you can have a spare seal carrier installed and not need to pull the shaft when it needs replacing or leaks. I have a recommendation for the PSS from Dave (another Mango owner)....thoughts?

Matt Salatino
 

The PSS only sank one boat I’m aware of.
Another, close friend, almost lost his boat, when the PSS bellows hose failed, 600 miles from shore. He was able to wrap stuff around the bellows to slow the leak to something manageable by the bilge pump, but he could not run his motor. He yanked the PSS off as soon as he reached land.
I’ve had success with the Lasdrop Gen II. It uses a conventional shaft log hose, and has an internal cutlass bearing to maintain concentricity of the seals. Their service kit is only two lip seals, that need replacement at 5-7 year intervals. When those go, it’s a slight drip, not torrent of water. Less than $20 for the seals. We’ve had our Lasdrop for 10 years, replaced seals once. I’m installing one on our new Amel 50 which comes with a PSS. I will replace it with the Lasdrop at our first haulout. It will be for sale then......

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Dec 4, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

Hello all. I plan to have my cutlass bearing replaced soon and want to use the opportunity to install a dripless shaft seal. I have a 1985 Mango. Looking at both the PSS and Tides systems. Anyone have experience either ? My mechanic is saying he recommends the tides as you can have a spare hose carrier installed and not need to pull the shaft when it needs replacing or leaks. I have a recommendation for the PSS from Dave (another Mango owner)....thoughts?

david bruce
 

Hi,
 I have no qualms endorsing the PSS dripless shaft seal as I have had one on my Newport 41 for 10 yrs, with no problems at all.  I inspect it frequently and have seen no  actual wear and only slight stiffening in the bellows after 8 years prompting a replacement at our last haul out.  They re not terribly expensive so a more frequent replacement schedule is not too onerous.  Just my 2 cents.  

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006



On Dec 4, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

The PSS only sank one boat I’m aware of.
Another, close friend, almost lost his boat, when the PSS bellows hose failed, 600 miles from shore. He was able to wrap stuff around the bellows to slow the leak to something manageable by the bilge pump, but he could not run his motor. He yanked the PSS off as soon as he reached land.
I’ve had success with the Lasdrop Gen II. It uses a conventional shaft log hose, and has an internal cutlass bearing to maintain concentricity of the seals. Their service kit is only two lip seals, that need replacement at 5-7 year intervals. When those go, it’s a slight drip, not torrent of water. Less than $20 for the seals. We’ve had our Lasdrop for 10 years, replaced seals once. I’m installing one on our new Amel 50 which comes with a PSS. I will replace it with the Lasdrop at our first haulout. It will be for sale then......

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Dec 4, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

Hello all. I plan to have my cutlass bearing replaced soon and want to use the opportunity to install a dripless shaft seal. I have a 1985 Mango. Looking at both the PSS and Tides systems. Anyone have experience either ? My mechanic is saying he recommends the tides as you can have a spare hose carrier installed and not need to pull the shaft when it needs replacing or leaks. I have a recommendation for the PSS from Dave (another Mango owner)....thoughts?

James Alton
 

Arlo,

   I have installed a few of the PSS dripless units made by PYI on customer boats.  They are pretty well designed but I am going to stay with the original Amel installed Bronze packing gland which is a design that has served me well over 40 years of boating.  True in theory the dripless glands can save you a little maintenance  time as compared to the original packing gland but if you have the right wrenches, keep the gland clean and greased it isn’t much.  The problem I see with the dripless designs that I am familiar with is that they are attached to the shaft log with a quite thin rubber bellows that does not seem to be reinforced with any fabric.  The bellows shape provides a small amount of pressure to keep the bearing that seals out the water.  Even something lightweight like the end of a mop handle can disturb the bellows and cause leakage.  Also you can have salt deposits build up if the dripless unit sits for a long time that can prevent the unit from sealing after turning the shaft.  I have had this happen on a customers boat, thankfully I always check the stuffing box or in this case the PSS gland which was dripping profusely after running the engine.  Cleaning the sealing surfaces corrected the problem but this is not IMO a plug and play device that does not need to be watched carefully.   The proper hose used to connect the bronze packing gland by comparison to the light bellows is perhaps 20X the thickness and well reinforced so much much stronger.  A packing gland that has not been tightened often enough might drip a bit of water but if the bellows of a dripless fails completely there can be very significant ingress of water into the boat that is pretty much determined by the clearance between the shaft and the shaft log since there is nothing else keeping it out.  A big upgrade to the old bronze packing gland is to use the really good white teflon packing which lasts much longer than the original flax material. With the Teflon packing you can almost end up with a dripless, especially with the addition of the grease injection.   I am not familiar with the Las Drop that was suggested to you but it certainly sounds like an interesting design.  Best of luck in making the best decision for your boat.

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Dec 4, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

Hello all. I plan to have my cutlass bearing replaced soon and want to use the opportunity to install a dripless shaft seal. I have a 1985 Mango. Looking at both the PSS and Tides systems. Anyone have experience either ? My mechanic is saying he recommends the tides as you can have a spare hose carrier installed and not need to pull the shaft when it needs replacing or leaks. I have a recommendation for the PSS from Dave (another Mango owner)....thoughts?

Craig & Katherine Briggs
 

Hi Dave,
We, too had a Newport 41 before our SN! Have sent you a PM.
Craig

sbmesasailor
 

Have you considered the Volvo Shaft Seal 828254 Shaft Size 25mm Stern Tube Diameter 42mm?

I have used it on my Maramu #121 for 18+ years and only replaced it once.  It doesn't "fail" it only starts to leak.  That's when you know it's time to replace.

Dennis Johns
Libertad

Arlo
 

Hello all, thanks for all the thoughts and recommendations. I am still doing my research, but for those Maramu and mango owners out there does anyone know what Amel used as OEM equipment for the shaft seal? Also the boat is in the water (we get hauled on the 16th of Dec) so I will likely order replacement parts this coming week...anyone replace their cutless bearing in their Mango or Maramu yet that can share any info?

Wade Shikoski
 

Just did this replacement on 83 maramu. Used a Johnson duramax size 1 7/8”x 1 3/8x 5 1/2” bearing. Replaced stuffing box hose with exhaust hose as per yard recommendation. 

James Alton
 

Wade,

   The exhaust hose is good for it’s intended application and but it is not as strong as the much thicker 5 ply hose sold specifically for stuffing boxes.  The hose that I use is by Buck Algonquin and has about a 3/8” wall thickness. 

    I am pretty sure that my Maramu has a 35mm shaft but perhaps yours was changed?

Best,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Dec 7, 2019, at 9:37 AM, Wade Shikoski via Groups.Io <n2everythg@...> wrote:

<D89A4BCB-F2CD-4214-9070-E3709B9CD14A.jpeg><36BEFD13-A894-46C5-9423-AF1D842D20B4.jpeg>Just did this replacement on 83 maramu. Used a Johnson duramax size 1 7/8”x 1 3/8x 5 1/2” bearing. Replaced stuffing box hose with exhaust hose as per yard recommendation. 

Wade Shikoski
 

Thanks James. I Will be sure to change it out. I wondered about that but when I looked up stuffing boxes in the Paxton catalog to confirm the yards recommendation I saw at least one stuffing box that was sold with exhaust hose. Figured that confirmed the yard recommendation was ok. 
I will change it out. Rather go with more insurance than less in that critical ‘hole in the boat’

Wade Shikoski
 

Re: cutlass. - I don’t know if the shaft was ever changed. But 1 3/8” = 1.375” and 35mm = 1.37795. 
Shaft is tight and does not wiggle side to side or up and down. I wonder if the less than 3 thousandths of an inch would really matter? I would think that much would wear off the bearing within a hundred hrs of engine time anyway?

thanks for clarifying the exact correct dimensions though. 

James Alton
 

Wade,

  If the cutlass bearings were made accurately it could matter a little but if the shaft feels tight and is not rattling then I would not worry about it.  In my experience there is sometimes more than 3 thou variation in the new bearings I buy,  not sure why but put two new bearings on the same shaft and one is likely to be tighter than the other.   Interestingly my boat came with a spare cutlass bearing and it was also a fractional size yet the shaft measures 35mm exactly so I am not 100% sure of what bearing is actually in my boat now.   

James

On Dec 7, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Wade Shikoski via Groups.Io <n2everythg@...> wrote:

Re: cutlass. - I don’t know if the shaft was ever changed. But 1 3/8” = 1.375” and 35mm = 1.37795. 
Shaft is tight and does not wiggle side to side or up and down. I wonder if the less than 3 thousandths of an inch would really matter? I would think that much would wear off the bearing within a hundred hrs of engine time anyway?

thanks for clarifying the exact correct dimensions though. 

James Alton
 

Wade,

   I have also seen exhaust hose used for stuffing boxes and so far have not seen a failure.   Perhaps the exhaust hose is being used by yards since they tend to have that hose on hand whereas the proper hose is becoming a bit of a specialty item?  Like yourself I feel that this is a critical hole in the boat so I was glad to spend a few extra dollars to get the much heavier Algonquin hose.  You could perhaps write to Shields and ask about the suitability of using the exhaust hose in this application.  I can tell you that the old hose that I removed on my Maramu was also very heavy wall.

Best of luck,

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
Preveza, Greece


On Dec 7, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Wade Shikoski via Groups.Io <n2everythg@...> wrote:

Thanks James. I Will be sure to change it out. I wondered about that but when I looked up stuffing boxes in the Paxton catalog to confirm the yards recommendation I saw at least one stuffing box that was sold with exhaust hose. Figured that confirmed the yard recommendation was ok. 
I will change it out. Rather go with more insurance than less in that critical ‘hole in the boat’

Arlo
 

James or Wade, were you able to find the shaft tube hose in the US anywhere? I cannot find a supplier for the 2 1/8 or 54 mm size hose....

Matt Salatino
 

I sent this 1 1/2 hours ago:

I did a quick search and found one in the US:
~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Dec 12, 2019, at 6:19 PM, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

James or Wade, were you able to find the shaft tube hose in the US anywhere? I cannot find a supplier for the 2 1/8 or 54 mm size hose....

Arlo
 

Thanks Matt, I was not aware that they carried that hose. I will call them tomorrow and see if its recommended for the application. Stay tuned....really appreciate the assistance

Arlo
 

I called Tides this morning and they plan to ship the hose to me today for delivery tomorrow. Anyone know what size flax to use with the stock stuffing box ?

James Alton
 

Arlo,

  I was wondering if it might be a good idea to ask Tides if the hose you are ordering is meant for use with the traditional stuffing box?  I could be wrong but it appears that the hose in the link given  is used for the dripless shaft seal that they sell as I did not see a mention of it being used in regular stuffing boxes.   I think that a traditional stuffing box that is dry, overtightened or grossly out of alignment can develop a lot more resistance than a shaft seal so a heavier/stronger hose might be desirable.  The Algonquin Shaft Log Hose is 3/8” wall and has 5 layers of reinforcement in it and seems to be pretty bullet proof,  unfortunately I don’t see the exact size listed that you need, 1/8” off.  Since the hose does not have any wire in it perhaps you can squeeze the 1/8” gap but I would ask someone knowledgeable at Buck Algonquin on this before trying it.   

  I would suggest going with the teflon impregnated packing and get a good quality.  The size needed is normally related to the shaft size.  An easy way to check the size packing needed is to back off the packing nut completely,  hold the packing nut square to the shaft and to then insert  drill bits of various sizes until you find the correct one.  With the butt of the correct sized drill bit inserted the packing nut should be in alignment with the shaft.  

Best of luck,

James
Maramu #220

On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:55 PM, Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:

I called Tides this morning and they plan to ship the hose to me today for delivery tomorrow. Anyone know what size flax to use with the stock stuffing box ?

Arlo
 

Great minds think alike. Your comment about the tides hose use with a traditional stuffing box and the additional resistance was exactly my concern as well. I called Tides technical support this morning at 2 different times and spoke to 2 different people and they said yes it will work fine. They apparently have these hoses special made for them and that the straight tube hoses are stiffer than the traditional rubber hose. The hose is supposed to be delivered tomorrow so I will check it out then. If I am not comfortable with the hose, then I will call Buck Algonquin and ask their thoughts on using the 2 1/4 hose with some t handle clamps...my only other really viable option if neither of those pan out is to change my drive shaft over to stainless and go with a metric sized dripless system. Not a bad option but it the traditional box has worked well for 35 years and fewer failure points.... Danny suggested I call Monster hose in Miami, I have used them before, but they didnt have any 4 or 5 ply hose in stock of the 2 and 1/8 size. I am suprised that I am the first one that has had trouble in the US with this....surely.other mango, maramu, or sanitorian owners have replaced their shaft tube hose.... will post tomorrow if the hose comes in and include some pics

Great tip on the drill bits and yes I agree with the stuffing recommendation!

Thanks 
Arlo

Arlo
 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:10 PM, Arlo wrote:
Great minds think alike. Your comment about the tides hose use with a traditional stuffing box and the additional resistance was exactly my concern as well. I called Tides technical support this morning at 2 different times and spoke to 2 different people and they said yes it will work fine. They apparently have these hoses special made for them and that the straight tube hoses are stiffer than the traditional rubber hose. The hose is supposed to be delivered tomorrow so I will check it out then. If I am not comfortable with the hose, then I will call Buck Algonquin and ask their thoughts on using the 2 1/4 hose with some t handle clamps...my only other really viable option if neither of those pan out is to change my drive shaft over to stainless and go with a metric sized dripless system. Not a bad option but it the traditional box has worked well for 35 years and fewer failure points.... Danny suggested I call Monster hose in Miami, I have used them before, but they didnt have any 4 or 5 ply hose in stock of the 2 and 1/8 size. I am suprised that I am the first one that has had trouble in the US with this....surely.other mango, maramu, or sanitorian owners have replaced their shaft tube hose.... will post tomorrow if the hose comes in and include some pics

Great tip on the drill bits and yes I agree with the stuffing recommendation!

Thanks 
Arlo

 Hello all. I posted more details under the topic of "stern tube hose"  but the short version is I decided to go with a Lasdrop gen II and a new stainless steel propshaft.