Topics

Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage


Scott SV Tengah
 

Given the spate of failed Volvo D3-110 engines and more than a few with seawater found in the cylinders, I am inclined to believe that there is a design weakness in the exhaust system on A54s. I do not know if the exhaust system is significantly different on the SM and other prior models but it does seem we only hear of flooded A54 engines.

In any event, I read the following in my manual and at least two other A54 owners had never heard this advice:

"You must run the main engine everyday of sailing for 15 or 20 minutes (in 1 or 2 times) to drain the exhaust circuit from the seawater the waves that fill in it."

Am I the only one who does this?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Porter McRoberts
 

No you’re not the only one. We do it too. 
But our engine did fail, but it wasn’t a flooded engine scenario, but rather bad cylinder liners. A new engine. H version has been running well from Panama to New Zealand. 
I think it is good advice, on really any engine or configuration, if not sea water, sea mist and air get into the remaining open cylinder through the open valve. 

But a question to those who know much more than I re this scenario: doesn’t the muffler reduce flow from the external boat to the engine?  And also, the one way exhaust valve, at the exit of the exhaust from the hull, also reduce back flow?  

Best of luck Scott
Porter A54-152




On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:22 PM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Given the spate of failed Volvo D3-110 engines and more than a few with seawater found in the cylinders, I am inclined to believe that there is a design weakness in the exhaust system on A54s. I do not know if the exhaust system is significantly different on the SM and other prior models but it does seem we only hear of flooded A54 engines.

In any event, I read the following in my manual and at least two other A54 owners had never heard this advice:

"You must run the main engine everyday of sailing for 15 or 20 minutes (in 1 or 2 times) to drain the exhaust circuit from the seawater the waves that fill in it."

Am I the only one who does this?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
<Engine Warning Volvo D3-110.pdf>


Alan Leslie
 

The same instruction is in our SM manual with the Yanmar engine, so I doubt it's a Volvo issue. I think the 54 has the same Vetus exhaust setup as the SM.
We certainly do it when sailing passages, particularly important when on starboard tack for long periods as the exhaust outlet is buried in the water.
Personally I wouldn't put much faith in the flap valve (I hesitate to call it a one-way valve - it's more one way than the other but by no means water tight) 
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


ngtnewington Newington
 

The anti syphon loop should prevent any water making it into the muffler box even when healed on starboard tack.

Many boats have the engine exhaust in the transom and it is said that in certain conditions a wave may slam into the stern forcing water into the engine, but I have never experienced this on a sailing boat. I think some sport fishing boats are prone to this, when backing into a sea once a big fish is hooked. Not our problem.


Can it happen with a sea from the port side? Maybe; I do not know. So far I have not had a problem, between the WI and Greece and a bit of to-ing and fro-ing between.

When I purchased Amelia in Grenada, I of course read the Amel literature on board, cover to cover and made note of that piece of text. It rather goes against my philosophy, now that I have solar and wind generated power. So I have not used the engine at sea just to blast water through the exhaust system. What I do however is keep a good eye on the anti syphon system for both engine and generator. I also note that the bilge pump on the 54 does not have an anti syphon loop as the original one is a diaphram type and thus not prone to syphoning.

So in conclusion I do not bother to run the engine daily. More like every few days or once a week whilst at sea. In practice it is only on longish passages that this is relevant. If the winds are light it is no inconvenience to run the engine for half an hour to get hot water, but when it is windy I hate to run the engine at all. So I do not.

I am interested to hear if anyone has had a problem with this. 

Regarding the Volvo D3. I am happy with mine so far…..fingers crossed. 

Nick

Amelia AML 54-019
Stored ashore in Kilada Greece


No you’re not the only one. We do it too. 
But our engine did fail, but it wasn’t a flooded engine scenario, but rather bad cylinder liners. A new engine. H version has been running well from Panama to New Zealand. 
I think it is good advice, on really any engine or configuration, if not sea water, sea mist and air get into the remaining open cylinder through the open valve. 

But a question to those who know much more than I re this scenario: doesn’t the muffler reduce flow from the external boat to the engine?  And also, the one way exhaust valve, at the exit of the exhaust from the hull, also reduce back flow?  

Best of luck Scott
Porter A54-152




On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:22 PM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Given the spate of failed Volvo D3-110 engines and more than a few with seawater found in the cylinders, I am inclined to believe that there is a design weakness in the exhaust system on A54s. I do not know if the exhaust system is significantly different on the SM and other prior models but it does seem we only hear of flooded A54 engines.

In any event, I read the following in my manual and at least two other A54 owners had never heard this advice:

"You must run the main engine everyday of sailing for 15 or 20 minutes (in 1 or 2 times) to drain the exhaust circuit from the seawater the waves that fill in it."

Am I the only one who does this?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
<Engine Warning Volvo D3-110.pdf>


Wolfgang Weber
 

Same instruction for Amel 54 with Volkswagen 140 tdI
Wolfgang Weber SY Elise Amel 54#162


Beaute Olivier
 

Happy New Year to all of you happy AMEL owners,

In severe conditions, on a port tack, the waves slapping the portside may push some seawater into the main engine exhaust through-hull fitting. This is why AMEL installs (in SMs since 1993 and AMEL 54 and 55) an anti-return rubber flap (not a one way valve) into a stainless steel box, close to the hull. However, even if this system works fine, it is recommended to run the engine twice a day (or more, depending on the conditions) in order to blow out the water that could accumulate in the VETUS muffler.
If the rubber flap is damaged/old/out of shape, it could let more water in. This is something you can check (with your hand or a picture from outside). I would replace it every 2000 hours or 10 years.

At sea, if you want to check if water has accumulated in the VETUS muffler, you may open the plug located at the bottom, and let the water drain.

I'm not sure there are so many engines damaged by sea water entering the exhaust line. However, there are other causes for water to get into the cylinders:
-a leaking water maker high pressure circuit can make a seawater mist/drizzle that will be sucked at once if the engine is running at the same time. Water will get into the cylinders through the air intake valves
-trying to start the engine (cranking) without firing will cause the muffler to fill up with seawater that will not be blown out because of no exhaust gas. Once the muffler is full, water may get into the cylinders through the exhaust valves

Last point, the anti-siphon system cannot prevent water from getting into the exhaust line. It is designed in order no water can be sucked from the intake line, and once the engine is off, in order the line drains into the muffler, and water does not keep above the engine for a long time. This is also a check point (does the water drip out of the cockpit while the engine is running?).

Starting the engine once a day (or twice in bad conditions/port tack) is not a big deal and will keep you sure that the engine is OK. 
I cannot imagine that you AMEL owners, sail on a passage without running the engine for a week or more...

AMEL does not give the same advice concerning the generator because they consider that you need to run the generator twice a day (on a passage). For those who now rely only on solar panels, wind generators and water generators, I strongly recommend that you start the genset also once or twice a day (in bad conditions) in order to blow out the water that could accumulate in its muffler.


Happy sailings and fair winds all along 2020.

Olivier

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 10:09:54 AM GMT+1, Wolfgang Weber via Groups.Io <webercardio@...> wrote:


Same instruction for Amel 54 with Volkswagen 140 tdI
Wolfgang Weber SY Elise Amel 54#162


Courtney Gorman
 

Thank you Olivier great information I appreciate it very much
Cheers
Courtney
sv Trippin
54#101
Secret Harbour


-----Original Message-----
From: Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io <atlanticyachtsurvey@...>
To: main <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>; main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2020 6:16 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage

Happy New Year to all of you happy AMEL owners,

In severe conditions, on a port tack, the waves slapping the portside may push some seawater into the main engine exhaust through-hull fitting. This is why AMEL installs (in SMs since 1993 and AMEL 54 and 55) an anti-return rubber flap (not a one way valve) into a stainless steel box, close to the hull. However, even if this system works fine, it is recommended to run the engine twice a day (or more, depending on the conditions) in order to blow out the water that could accumulate in the VETUS muffler.
If the rubber flap is damaged/old/out of shape, it could let more water in. This is something you can check (with your hand or a picture from outside). I would replace it every 2000 hours or 10 years.

At sea, if you want to check if water has accumulated in the VETUS muffler, you may open the plug located at the bottom, and let the water drain.

I'm not sure there are so many engines damaged by sea water entering the exhaust line. However, there are other causes for water to get into the cylinders:
-a leaking water maker high pressure circuit can make a seawater mist/drizzle that will be sucked at once if the engine is running at the same time. Water will get into the cylinders through the air intake valves
-trying to start the engine (cranking) without firing will cause the muffler to fill up with seawater that will not be blown out because of no exhaust gas. Once the muffler is full, water may get into the cylinders through the exhaust valves

Last point, the anti-siphon system cannot prevent water from getting into the exhaust line. It is designed in order no water can be sucked from the intake line, and once the engine is off, in order the line drains into the muffler, and water does not keep above the engine for a long time. This is also a check point (does the water drip out of the cockpit while the engine is running?).

Starting the engine once a day (or twice in bad conditions/port tack) is not a big deal and will keep you sure that the engine is OK. 
I cannot imagine that you AMEL owners, sail on a passage without running the engine for a week or more...

AMEL does not give the same advice concerning the generator because they consider that you need to run the generator twice a day (on a passage). For those who now rely only on solar panels, wind generators and water generators, I strongly recommend that you start the genset also once or twice a day (in bad conditions) in order to blow out the water that could accumulate in its muffler.


Happy sailings and fair winds all along 2020.

Olivier

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 10:09:54 AM GMT+1, Wolfgang Weber via Groups.Io <webercardio@...> wrote:


Same instruction for Amel 54 with Volkswagen 140 tdI
Wolfgang Weber SY Elise Amel 54#162


Scott SV Tengah
 

Fantastic information from Olivier.  Thank you. I presume the flap is a specific Amel part or can we buy it elsewhere? I am totally for supporting Amel but the shipping costs from France get a bit high for a small part. :)

On another note, what is the general guideline for using the Volvo D3-110 and the Onan when the boat is heeled over? I do recall reading the Onan spec that it shouldn't be used at more than 10 degrees constant with short bursts to 20degrees. I can definitely hear a change in genset note when the boat is rolling and it is not related to the exhaust outlet going underwater. 

Back in my car racing days, I was very aware of oil starvation when the oil sloshes to the side of the oil sump while cornering. The solution there was either baffles (helps) or a dry sump. Is this a concern with our marine engines/genset?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Mark Erdos
 

Although not fitted with a Volvo or a 54, Cream puff is fitted with a Vetus Waterlock muffler. Even if you do not have the Vetus model, the setup for the water-lock is probably very similar. The muffler is fitted with a drain screw. Undoing this screw while underway would absolutely eliminated any chance of water back-flowing into the engine. If you opt to do this, it might be advisable to attach a hose pointed toward the bilge. And, of course, do not run the engine with the water-lock drain open.

 

So, for those of you not wanting to run the engine at all while underway on long passages, this is an alternate option.

 

Image result for vetus waterlock

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Vista Mar, Panama

www.creampuff.us

 

 


Porter McRoberts
 

Thank to Oliver and also to Scott. Great question!  
Porter A54-154

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 
Www.fouribis.com

On Jan 7, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Fantastic information from Olivier.  Thank you. I presume the flap is a specific Amel part or can we buy it elsewhere? I am totally for supporting Amel but the shipping costs from France get a bit high for a small part. :)

On another note, what is the general guideline for using the Volvo D3-110 and the Onan when the boat is heeled over? I do recall reading the Onan spec that it shouldn't be used at more than 10 degrees constant with short bursts to 20degrees. I can definitely hear a change in genset note when the boat is rolling and it is not related to the exhaust outlet going underwater. 

Back in my car racing days, I was very aware of oil starvation when the oil sloshes to the side of the oil sump while cornering. The solution there was either baffles (helps) or a dry sump. Is this a concern with our marine engines/genset?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Jamie Wendell
 

Scott, Jamie Wendell here on Phantom.
As you may recall when we met last year, I told you I had saltwater migration into my D3-110 on my Amel 54. No one could positively identify why that happened, but the engine was toast. There is a long thread from 2015/2016 about that.
I replaced with a D3-150 and reworked the exhaust from the muffler to the discharge flapper. I upped the size to 90mm and replaced the flapper to match. The original was 90 to the muffler but only 76 downstream. I also shortened the loop significantly.
I have had no problems since.
Hope all is well with you guys. Enjoy PR.
Maybe see you next winter when I head back down.
Jamie
Phantom A54


Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

When we crossed the Atlantic we ran the genset four hours a day and it was always rolling. Did not experience any problems.

 

Cheers,

Paul

S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah
Sent: 07 January 2020 12:18
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage

 

Fantastic information from Olivier.  Thank you. I presume the flap is a specific Amel part or can we buy it elsewhere? I am totally for supporting Amel but the shipping costs from France get a bit high for a small part. :)

On another note, what is the general guideline for using the Volvo D3-110 and the Onan when the boat is heeled over? I do recall reading the Onan spec that it shouldn't be used at more than 10 degrees constant with short bursts to 20degrees. I can definitely hear a change in genset note when the boat is rolling and it is not related to the exhaust outlet going underwater. 

Back in my car racing days, I was very aware of oil starvation when the oil sloshes to the side of the oil sump while cornering. The solution there was either baffles (helps) or a dry sump. Is this a concern with our marine engines/genset?

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98


Scott SV Tengah
 

Hey Jamie, good to hear from you. Did you run the engine on your maiden passage from the Caribbean to the Chesapeake? Not assigning blame, just curious. 

Did you decide to rework the exhaust to prevent future water ingress problems with the muffler system?

We are in Colombia now and next (Northern) winter we'll be in New Zealand, assuming the boat agrees with our plans.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


karkauai
 

Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 

_._,_.
_._,_


Jamie Wendell
 

Yep, I ran the engine quite extensively on my "maiden voyage" to Annapolis. Ran fine for the trip, but after a week of sitting at the dock, the engine would not start. The rest is history.
And yes, I worked the outlet to prevent ANY possible ingress (both internal and external). No problems since and I left the generator as original. With the water/gas separator on the genset I have never had an issue.
Safe travels and enjoy New Zealand. Stay away from Australia for now though.
Jamie


Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hello Scott,

This same suggestion is written in the SM’s owner’s manual.

Another cruiser, marine engineer, seized his engine while on passage Tonga to N.Minerva island.  Luckily, we freed the engine and with the extra oil carried on my old girl, managed to get the engine working correctly and after informing him of the Amel procedure, he decided to run his engine every day for 30 minutes.

It is preventive in nature

Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM 007, Opua, NZ




On 7 Jan 2020, at 15:22, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Given the spate of failed Volvo D3-110 engines and more than a few with seawater found in the cylinders, I am inclined to believe that there is a design weakness in the exhaust system on A54s. I do not know if the exhaust system is significantly different on the SM and other prior models but it does seem we only hear of flooded A54 engines.

In any event, I read the following in my manual and at least two other A54 owners had never heard this advice:

"You must run the main engine everyday of sailing for 15 or 20 minutes (in 1 or 2 times) to drain the exhaust circuit from the seawater the waves that fill in it."

Am I the only one who does this?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
<Engine Warning Volvo D3-110.pdf>


Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hello Kent,

I have an identical SS mixing box.  Last year I rebuilt the unit and found NO flap valve inside.

However, I do not understand why everyone is intent on modifying an effective system (running the engine 1 or 2 times par day) by adding complication to the system....

Kind regards everyone

Jean-Pierre, Eleuthera, SM 007, Opua, NZ




On 10 Jan 2020, at 03:23, karkauai via Groups.Io <karkauai@...> wrote:


Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 
_._,_.
_._,_
<IMG_20200109_091641_1.jpg>


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Kent, We have the same. Identical including the tread on top.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 10 January 2020 at 03:23 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 
_._,_.
_._,_


Alan Leslie
 

The flap valve is in the exhaust outlet fitting /// you can see it if you swim around the port side, or when you're hauled out.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


ngtnewington Newington
 


This is an interesting thread. I am not sure why I hate running the engine at sea unnecessarily, but I do. 

On the 54 the exhaust out from the Vetus muffler is a large rubber hose that rises up to near the level of the cockpit floor, before flowing down to the hull skin fitting. In my opinion this is a good installation and unlikely to allow water to be forced into the engine especially considering the additional flap that will prevent waves from being forced in the exhaust line.

I believe that so long as the boat is actually sailing there will be no problem as the water will be sucked out of the pipework from the flow of water along the hull. This is due to the Bernoulli Principle, (a bit like the Ventouri effect) which is why a self bailing slot in the bottom of a sailing dinghy draws the water out whilst sailing but when stationary lets it in.

I can see that whilst hove to and more or less stationary there could indeed be a situation whereby water works its way into the muffler and then gradually fills up the exhaust outlet between the engine and the muffler. This is the one time when we really do not want to be worried about such a situation.

So in conclusion we need to be either mindful of this potential situation and run the engine or come up with something else.

I like Leslie’s suggestion of running a hose from the muffler drain point to the bilge. This would drain any water that accumulates in the muffler. It would be easy to install and one could test it and see just how much comes in….does anyone see a problem with this idea?

Nick

AML 54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece


On 10 Jan 2020, at 09:35, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

The flap valve is in the exhaust outlet fitting /// you can see it if you swim around the port side, or when you're hauled out.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437