Topics

Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage


Beaute Olivier
 

Hello Bill,

nothing to add so far. That's just a perfect information.

Olivier


Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He all when the flap is not in stock by Amel , maybe you find it here 

Best 
Elja 
SY Balu 
SM 222

https://www.segelladen.de/Inhalt-untergruppen17/spiegeldurchfuehrung.htm

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Mark & Debbie Mueller
 

To try and mitigate this problem a 12 V normally open (NO) valve could be connected to the muffler drain.  12 V power can be obtained from a ship’s system such as the engine exhaust fan that only operates when the engine is running.  When the engine runs and the valve is energized, it will close blocking the drain line and keeping the engine exhaust contained; with the engine off and power removed the valve would return to its NO position and allow any water in the muffler or any water that subsequently enters the muffler to drain to the bilge.  Ahead of the solenoid valve I would install a manual ball valve as a backup in case the solenoid fails and not knowing what kind of contaminants are in the muffler consider installing a small filter.

 

I ran this idea by another forum member that is very knowledgeable about all things Amel.  His comment was “Do you think your idea is childproof?”.  It is not completely childproof since it is an active system however it is a way to mitigate the problem and I believe follows the KISS principle.  Additionally, it would be relatively inexpensive to implement while providing an alternative safeguard for the very expensive engine repair.


--
Mark Mueller
Brass Ring  A54


 

Thanks, Olivier!

I took your photo and added it to the other photos I had. I hope that together these photos help others understand the exhaust system after SM #100. Corrective or Additional comments are welcome. The following is available in PDF and JPG format.
image.png


On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:24 PM Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io <atlanticyachtsurvey=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Mike,

your SM 23 did not have the rubber flap mounted on a stainless steel cylinder box.
This system came later probably around hull 100.
If your system has not been modified since original, your exhaust through hull system is just a GRP tube bonded to the hull, where the exhaust hose is glued into with silicone filler.

The rubber flap system has been installed on SMs (since hull 100) and on AMEL 54, 55, 64, 50 and 60 (not Santorins).

The plastic mufflers have been installed on SMs with Yanmar engines, all the Perkins and Volvo engines have (originally) stainless steel mufflers.

Mike, if you want to install the rubber flap system, you need to make sure the GRP through hull tube is the same diameter as the bigger diameter of the stainless steel cylinder.

Hope the attached picture will help and show those who have never seen this part (although they have it).

Olivier


--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Merci for this Olivier,

I hope Amel have stocks of them because I suspect there may be a run on them.

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl


On 30 January 2020 at 16:22 "Beaute Olivier via Groups.Io" <atlanticyachtsurvey@...> wrote:

Hello Mike,

your SM 23 did not have the rubber flap mounted on a stainless steel cylinder box.
This system came later probably around hull 100.
If your system has not been modified since original, your exhaust through hull system is just a GRP tube bonded to the hull, where the exhaust hose is glued into with silicone filler.

The rubber flap system has been installed on SMs (since hull 100) and on AMEL 54, 55, 64, 50 and 60 (not Santorins).

The plastic mufflers have been installed on SMs with Yanmar engines, all the Perkins and Volvo engines have (originally) stainless steel mufflers.

Mike, if you want to install the rubber flap system, you need to make sure the GRP through hull tube is the same diameter as the bigger diameter of the stainless steel cylinder.

Hope the attached picture will help and show those who have never seen this part (although they have it).

Olivier


 


 


Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thank you so much! This makes a lot of sense now... quite a bit different than what I was picturing.

I believe I have a 4" (101.6mm) hose fitted on the hull. Does anyone know the bigger diameter of the Amel flap box (yellow arrow in Olivier's photo)?

I think this will do wonders in keeping the ocean out.

Many thanks,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


Beaute Olivier
 

Hello Mike,

your SM 23 did not have the rubber flap mounted on a stainless steel cylinder box.
This system came later probably around hull 100.
If your system has not been modified since original, your exhaust through hull system is just a GRP tube bonded to the hull, where the exhaust hose is glued into with silicone filler.

The rubber flap system has been installed on SMs (since hull 100) and on AMEL 54, 55, 64, 50 and 60 (not Santorins).

The plastic mufflers have been installed on SMs with Yanmar engines, all the Perkins and Volvo engines have (originally) stainless steel mufflers.

Mike, if you want to install the rubber flap system, you need to make sure the GRP through hull tube is the same diameter as the bigger diameter of the stainless steel cylinder.

Hope the attached picture will help and show those who have never seen this part (although they have it).

Olivier


Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thanks Joel, Bill, and everyone who has offered ideas on this topic. It's all been very helpful as I work toward a solution. I'll be taking a close look inside the injection elbow, stainless muffler, and the cylinder shaped exhaust box near the thru hull. The rubber flap is still somewhat of a mystery... if replacement is recommended, is there a recommended part source (Amel?) and procedure? I'm not so much worried about accessing it but securing it properly. Is one edge of the rubber flap fixed to the inside surface of the box right where the smaller hose comes in? Held in place with just some adhesive/sealant or something more? Or does the flap have a rigid border/frame to it that gets bonded somewhere in the middle of the exhaust box? My rubber flap is not only long gone but that whole cylinder box and reducing coupling is non-original for my boat. I don't want to re-do it the wrong way.

Any advice for getting back to the Amel standard regarding this anti-return flap is still welcomed.

Danny - I think your way of accessing it makes sense. Definitely not the easiest place to access in the engine room (or the hardest!). Also probably best done while dry unless you're floating in a swimming pool.

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


amelforme
 

All early Super Maramu had metal mufflers, don’t recall the cut off when they switched to plastic. Olivier, do you know when the change was made? Jacques Carteau explained the reason for the change as noise/vibration abatement as the plastic mufflers would ‘pant’/flex and eliminate some noise/vibration where the metal ones wouldn’t. He noted that they wouldn’t corrode either. He didn’t appreciate my saying that they will melt if you lose the raw water pump.

 

If you still have a metal muffler, it’s a good idea to inspect the interior and especially the bottom on a regular basis, at least annually.  When they fail it makes an awful mess of the engine compartment.

       

 

            JOEL F. POTTER-CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST~L.L.C.

                                           THE  EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

    UNSURPASSED AMEL MARKETING EXPERIENCE AND PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE

                                   Office 954-462-5869  Cell 954-812-2485

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2020 3:56 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage

 

Mike,

 

You wrote: Hi Bill - do you mean that last section of exhaust looks modified/non-Amel or just generally speaking?

The answers to your questions are yes & yes.

 

See the attached as it may help you. Your SM, when new, probably had the plastic Vetus water muffler, not a stainless steel muffler. I assume there are previous owner modifications.

 

 

 

 

--

Image removed by sender.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

Image removed by sender. Image removed by sender. Image removed by sender. 

 

View My Training Calendar

Image removed by sender.

 

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:45 PM CW Bill Rouse via Groups.Io <brouse=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Mike

 

I'll send you something directly that will probably help.

 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:16 PM Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy) <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:

Hi Alex,

My understanding of the anti-siphon on the raw water line (between the exit from heat exchanger and input to exhaust elbow), is to prevent continuous water flow (after engine shutdown) through the intake line should something in the line break/leak/disconnect/etc. The design of most raw water pumps prevents this continuous flow as long as the vanes of the impeller are intact. The flow of water out of the anti-siphon while the engine is running provides a good visual check that 1. your anti-siphon is working and not clogged and 2. that your engine is getting a good supply of raw water for cooling. I'm not sure I follow Oliver's comment about water standing above the engine for long periods because I'm pretty sure the water would find it's way down to the muffler with or without a siphon break at the top. Again, this assumes your raw water pump/impeller is fully functional, and those certainly fail from time to time. So a working anti-siphon is a good way to ensure your engine doesn't flood and/or your boat doesn't sink.

I may be wrong on some of this so if anyone has any other input please share.

Also... I'm still searching for any information on the rubber anti-return flap at the end of the exhaust line near the through hull. Has anyone bought, replaced, or fabricated something like this for their Amel?

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


Dave Robards
 





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
5. Xq


Jamie Wendell
 

Hello Alex, I believe you are referring to my D3-110 failure. When I experienced my water ingest issue, it was after a fairly calm trip up from Florida to the Chesapeake Bay. I ran the engine quite a bit, as I recall the wind was not great, but that was now more than 4 years ago, so I cannot remember all the details of what happened.

I understand exactly what you are suggesting though, in that water could potentially enter into the anti-siphon loop if un-expelled water collected in the cockpit. But I can say for sure in my case, there was no water in the cockpit from waves. And in my situation, I am really certain that water did not get forced into the exhaust loop on a starboard tack. I have seen the flapper that Amel installed first hand, and it looked OK to me (it is really kind of a tube), so again I think my issue was that the engine was not expelling the water through the muffler. I surmise that it was "back-washing" if you will into the exhaust manifold and hence entering the cylinders in spurts - not enough to flood and lock the engine, but enough to seize the valves and kill it once it sat for a week.

Hope that helps.
Jamie
Amel 54 Phantom #44


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Bill, all this conversation is moving me to do a first time look at the exhaust flap. I guess the larger stainless tube is separated from  the hull and the exhaust hose to access it, or perhaps the hose can be left in place and the unit flexed back???

I would add a comment regarding the variety of systems being suggested as "improvements" to the exhaust system.

Henri in his inimitable fashion has thought it all through, considered the potential failure of all the alternatives, and decided the most bullet proof system was the start the motor for a few minutes every day rule.

This has the significant added benefit for boats on extended passages of ensuring the engine is in perfect starting order at all times. A spine tingler is to find the motor wont start in an emergency situation. With over 50,000 ocean miles under my belt on Ocean Pearl  I consider it an absolute that the engine and gen set is started daily to ensure all systems are go at all times. It is one of those rules that will keep you alive when you really need it.

So my thoughts: keep or return your system to the Amel standard and follow the advice from Amel

Kind Regards

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 29 January 2020 at 09:55 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Mike,

You wrote:  Hi Bill - do you mean that last section of exhaust looks modified/non-Amel or just generally speaking?
The answers to your questions are yes & yes.

See the attached as it may help you. Your SM, when new, probably had the plastic Vetus water muffler, not a stainless steel muffler. I assume there are previous owner modifications.


 


--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
 
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
     
 
View My Training Calendar

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:45 PM CW Bill Rouse via Groups.Io <brouse= gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike

I'll send you something directly that will probably help.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:16 PM Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy) < svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi Alex,

My understanding of the anti-siphon on the raw water line (between the exit from heat exchanger and input to exhaust elbow), is to prevent continuous water flow (after engine shutdown) through the intake line should something in the line break/leak/disconnect/etc. The design of most raw water pumps prevents this continuous flow as long as the vanes of the impeller are intact. The flow of water out of the anti-siphon while the engine is running provides a good visual check that 1. your anti-siphon is working and not clogged and 2. that your engine is getting a good supply of raw water for cooling. I'm not sure I follow Oliver's comment about water standing above the engine for long periods because I'm pretty sure the water would find it's way down to the muffler with or without a siphon break at the top. Again, this assumes your raw water pump/impeller is fully functional, and those certainly fail from time to time. So a working anti-siphon is a good way to ensure your engine doesn't flood and/or your boat doesn't sink.

I may be wrong on some of this so if anyone has any other input please share.

Also... I'm still searching for any information on the rubber anti-return flap at the end of the exhaust line near the through hull. Has anyone bought, replaced, or fabricated something like this for their Amel?

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

 

 


 

Mike,

You wrote: Hi Bill - do you mean that last section of exhaust looks modified/non-Amel or just generally speaking?
The answers to your questions are yes & yes.

See the attached as it may help you. Your SM, when new, probably had the plastic Vetus water muffler, not a stainless steel muffler. I assume there are previous owner modifications.




--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:45 PM CW Bill Rouse via Groups.Io <brouse=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike

I'll send you something directly that will probably help.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:16 PM Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy) <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi Alex,

My understanding of the anti-siphon on the raw water line (between the exit from heat exchanger and input to exhaust elbow), is to prevent continuous water flow (after engine shutdown) through the intake line should something in the line break/leak/disconnect/etc. The design of most raw water pumps prevents this continuous flow as long as the vanes of the impeller are intact. The flow of water out of the anti-siphon while the engine is running provides a good visual check that 1. your anti-siphon is working and not clogged and 2. that your engine is getting a good supply of raw water for cooling. I'm not sure I follow Oliver's comment about water standing above the engine for long periods because I'm pretty sure the water would find it's way down to the muffler with or without a siphon break at the top. Again, this assumes your raw water pump/impeller is fully functional, and those certainly fail from time to time. So a working anti-siphon is a good way to ensure your engine doesn't flood and/or your boat doesn't sink.

I may be wrong on some of this so if anyone has any other input please share.

Also... I'm still searching for any information on the rubber anti-return flap at the end of the exhaust line near the through hull. Has anyone bought, replaced, or fabricated something like this for their Amel?

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


 

Mike

I'll send you something directly that will probably help.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:16 PM Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy) <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi Alex,

My understanding of the anti-siphon on the raw water line (between the exit from heat exchanger and input to exhaust elbow), is to prevent continuous water flow (after engine shutdown) through the intake line should something in the line break/leak/disconnect/etc. The design of most raw water pumps prevents this continuous flow as long as the vanes of the impeller are intact. The flow of water out of the anti-siphon while the engine is running provides a good visual check that 1. your anti-siphon is working and not clogged and 2. that your engine is getting a good supply of raw water for cooling. I'm not sure I follow Oliver's comment about water standing above the engine for long periods because I'm pretty sure the water would find it's way down to the muffler with or without a siphon break at the top. Again, this assumes your raw water pump/impeller is fully functional, and those certainly fail from time to time. So a working anti-siphon is a good way to ensure your engine doesn't flood and/or your boat doesn't sink.

I may be wrong on some of this so if anyone has any other input please share.

Also... I'm still searching for any information on the rubber anti-return flap at the end of the exhaust line near the through hull. Has anyone bought, replaced, or fabricated something like this for their Amel?

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Alex,

My understanding of the anti-siphon on the raw water line (between the exit from heat exchanger and input to exhaust elbow), is to prevent continuous water flow (after engine shutdown) through the intake line should something in the line break/leak/disconnect/etc. The design of most raw water pumps prevents this continuous flow as long as the vanes of the impeller are intact. The flow of water out of the anti-siphon while the engine is running provides a good visual check that 1. your anti-siphon is working and not clogged and 2. that your engine is getting a good supply of raw water for cooling. I'm not sure I follow Oliver's comment about water standing above the engine for long periods because I'm pretty sure the water would find it's way down to the muffler with or without a siphon break at the top. Again, this assumes your raw water pump/impeller is fully functional, and those certainly fail from time to time. So a working anti-siphon is a good way to ensure your engine doesn't flood and/or your boat doesn't sink.

I may be wrong on some of this so if anyone has any other input please share.

Also... I'm still searching for any information on the rubber anti-return flap at the end of the exhaust line near the through hull. Has anyone bought, replaced, or fabricated something like this for their Amel?

Regards,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


Alexander Ramseyer
 

I'm not sure I fully understand this quote from Oliviers post:
" Last point, the anti-siphon system cannot prevent water from getting into the exhaust line. It is designed in order no water can be sucked from the intake line, and once the engine is off, in order the line drains into the muffler, and water does not keep above the engine for a long time. This is also a check point (does the water drip out of the cockpit while the engine is running?)". Can someone help to interpret please?

Jamie, in case you read this, can you tell me whether or not water from high waves made it into your cockpit? (..and filled your drain and eventually the small hose that goes from inside the big drain tube to the round metal hose in the engine room (metal part of the system that is attached to the Diesel tank). I had water in my cockpit and I consider the possibility that the water made from the big cockpit drain through that small hose and from there into the motor (possible if water is high enough in the cockpit in combination with the boat moving in the waves.

Alex Ramseyer
AMEL54#15, SY NO STRESS
Thanks, Alex



Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Bill - do you mean that last section of exhaust looks modified/non-Amel or just generally speaking?

Ruslan - I like a shutoff valve because it absolutely solves the backflow problem. If I went that direction, I would prefer a basic (no switches or sensors) and non-metal part to eliminate corrosion. The only real problem, besides the hassle of installing it, is making sure it's open before starting the engine and as others have said, in an emergency it would not be good at all.

If anyone has any experience with the rubber non-return flap in the exhaust or anything similar please let me know. What does this thing look like?

If I could reach the exhaust from deck I'd probably go with the foam ball on a string method :) ...opportunity for a special tool here? Just kidding.

Thanks,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 5:23 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Mike,

I think you will discover that SM 23 has been modified by previous owners.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:14 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--


 

Mike,

I think you will discover that SM 23 has been modified by previous owners.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:14 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--


Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--


James Alton
 

Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--