Topics

Howes fuel treatment


eric freedman
 

Sorry the image is hard to read-

This is the write-up from Howes. It is used most of the time in fuel depots where the diesel is stored over the summer for home heating oil.

At Howes we understand the science and importance of year round lubricity and protection and our Meaner Power Kleaner is the proof. Safely eliminating water and removing the environment that creates bacteria, Meaner Power Kleaner contains no alcohol or harmful solvents and eliminates injector deposits. The end result is a performance enhancing product that protects your engine and boosts MPGs…guaranteed!

 

We then add Howes fuel treatment, This stuff is incredible. Please read the label. It also guaranteed 5% better fuel economy. PHOTO IS BELOW

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

 


Sent: Sun
Howes Lubricator Meaner Power Diesel Kleaner HL306712day, February 09, 2020 6:37 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Paranoia about the D3-110 Volvo Penta - diesel bug

 

All good points, James.

Working with dessicant dryers for air compressors, on a humid day, the crystals were pink (from clear) in a few hours. 

I fear that a proper dryer that one could set and forget for 6 months, if it exists, would be active, powered, and be another,complex system to maintain and monitor. Maybe a pressurized system like the ones on automobiles would work, that don’t allow air, readily into the system? I’ve not studied how they work, so I plead ignorance....😊

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:06 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,

 

  I agree.    The desiccant cartridges would need to be replaced from time to time  Most of the ones I have considered change colour indicating the need while others can be heated to drive off the moisture and returned to service.  I have been looking at some commercial solutions so the cost is fairly reasonable but more research is needed to determine the effectiveness and life expectancy in a marine environment.   If anyone has found a good workable solution for installed a desiccant in the vent line please share.

 

Best,

 

James

  

On Feb 9, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

 

A desiccant/dryer would be a great idea. Finding one that is maintenance free, and passive, may be a problem.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 12:23 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Some great discussion here.  One item that I did not see discussed that could be  helpful especially in humid climates is adding a dessicant dryer to the vent line.  Regular replacement and lubrication of the O ring seal at the fill cap is important as well.  Best of luck.

 

James

SV Sueno

Maramu #220

 

On Feb 9, 2020 11:49 AM, "Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io" <portermcroberts@...> wrote:

I agree Nick— You're right, certainly about the industry norm.  And I’m sure there are many theories on this: and mine may be incorrect.  But the way I think of it: Crud exists in a myriad of sizes.  Crud forms… then  gets into the filter system and clogs.  If i have a series of sequentially smaller sized filters, i simply clog them all. and then replace them all.  If a bolus of crud makes it into the sequential filtering setup: filters essentially sort the crud into smaller sizes at a great cost (especially with the last Volvo filter now being fouled).  So we've cruised with the 2 micron setup for about 500 hours of motoring from panama to NZ last year and it seemed to work well.  no issues.  Filters seemed pretty good looking when i changed them  Usually around 100 hrs,  (I previously was quite derelict about it, prior to really understanding how important clean fuel was.)  I have noticed the manometer pressure reading on the setup would climb slightly over the 100 hrs, but never concerningly high.  

So scenario above A, with ostensibly clean fuel, worked for us, for this while.

 

 

So… Scenario B: Cruddy fuel shows up.  A slosh of crud makes it into the filter setup. (is this an isolated bit of crud, or does it advertize a yet much larger crub problem in the tank)  Currently it would saturate the 2 micron first filter and pressures climb, engine shuts down alerting us to a pressure scenario  and we change filter: but now we know we have cruddy fuel and need to polish it and the tank. (and why I’d like a separate fuel polishing system on board.)  Heres where my scenario breaks down: it depends on the amount of crud: pump it out and through baja filter into jerry cans? then run engine off jerry cans?  or...( I do have a bunch of 10mn  and 30mn sizes as well) as well put those on and let the filters clean the crud out: but if I increase the racor size then ill be clogging my 130$ volvo filters very fast: i carry about 4 of those, They're proprietary and hard to get in places.  It turns into a "S" show.  

 

So what's governed our cruising: sail smart, with wind as much as possible so we motor little.  Praise our relatively large 900 litre tank, and the freedom it adds to be discriminate about fuel choice. When others are fueling out of necessity, i find myself adding fuel not because i think we're low, but…  hey were sailors and should keep topped up stores.  

 

I'd be surprised if I’d completely thought this through, I'm sure there are some folks who really understand this at a much deeper level and I would love to hear from them and you.

 

And as you note Nick, it is the industry norm, and usually there is good reason for that!  To that end, if the Volvo-proprietary “C” filters were as inexpensive as the racors—I’d also stick to industry norm.  

 

I’d respectfully welcome any thinking and guidance.

 

Porter A54-154 with a  “H” model D3-110

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

 

Hi Scott and Porter,

 

I choose to use a 10 or even 30 micron filter on the Racor followed by the Volvo secondary filter which is 2 micron I believe.

 

In my opinion by having the pre-filter at 2 micron you are in effect only having one filter. So in the event of major contamination the Racor will plug and the engine will suffer from fuel starvation. You may also damage the fuel pump, although on the 54 the fuel is gravity fed from the tank to the filters.

 

The same principle applies to the water maker. There is a course filter followed by the fine filter. You can not just go straight to the fine.

 

I know this is a controversial subject but that is my opinion….and the industry norm.

 

Nick

 

Amelia AML 54-019

Kilada Greece

On 9 Feb 2020, at 15:10, Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io <portermcroberts@...> wrote:

 

I understand. We have the same setup. The dual racor (A vs B) and A+B if one wishes.  We keep the 2 micron on both A and B and use only A or B, switching back and forth.  Filter C is of course the very pricey Volvo-specific filter/fuel water separator, which is what I want to spare by using the 2 micron. I watch the pressure gauge on the racors a lot.  That’s why we change frequently, to keep pressures low.  We have no pre-pre filters.  

 

I remember a thread on this about a year ago, the 2 micron pre-filter argument.  That’s when we switched.  Its hard to be scientific when we have limited data re what works “best.”

 

Great comments on why to keep the tank full during storage.

 

Porter A54-152

 

On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

I have the two racor filter setup. I consider this the primary filter / pre-filter.

Options:

1) FilterA only
2) FilterB only
3) FilterA and FilterB in parallel

Do you run the 2 micron filters here?

On my D3-110C there's a Volvo spin-on filter (2 micron) on the engine itself. We'll call that FilterC

Did you install a pre-filter before the Racors??
-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 

 

 

 

 


Matt Salatino
 

I wonder if the TSA will pull it out of checked baggage?

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 9, 2020, at 7:21 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Sorry the image is hard to read-

This is the write-up from Howes. It is used most of the time in fuel depots where the diesel is stored over the summer for home heating oil.

At Howes we understand the science and importance of year round lubricity and protection and our Meaner Power Kleaner is the proof. Safely eliminating water and removing the environment that creates bacteria, Meaner Power Kleaner contains no alcohol or harmful solvents and eliminates injector deposits. The end result is a performance enhancing product that protects your engine and boosts MPGs…guaranteed!

 

We then add Howes fuel treatment, This stuff is incredible. Please read the label. It also guaranteed 5% better fuel economy. PHOTO IS BELOW

 

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

 

 


Sent: Sun
<image001.png>day, February 09, 2020 6:37 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Paranoia about the D3-110 Volvo Penta - diesel bug

 

All good points, James.

Working with dessicant dryers for air compressors, on a humid day, the crystals were pink (from clear) in a few hours. 

I fear that a proper dryer that one could set and forget for 6 months, if it exists, would be active, powered, and be another,complex system to maintain and monitor. Maybe a pressurized system like the ones on automobiles would work, that don’t allow air, readily into the system? I’ve not studied how they work, so I plead ignorance....😊

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:06 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,

 

  I agree.    The desiccant cartridges would need to be replaced from time to time  Most of the ones I have considered change colour indicating the need while others can be heated to drive off the moisture and returned to service.  I have been looking at some commercial solutions so the cost is fairly reasonable but more research is needed to determine the effectiveness and life expectancy in a marine environment.   If anyone has found a good workable solution for installed a desiccant in the vent line please share.

 

Best,

 

James

  

On Feb 9, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

 

A desiccant/dryer would be a great idea. Finding one that is maintenance free, and passive, may be a problem.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 12:23 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Some great discussion here.  One item that I did not see discussed that could be  helpful especially in humid climates is adding a dessicant dryer to the vent line.  Regular replacement and lubrication of the O ring seal at the fill cap is important as well.  Best of luck.

 

James

SV Sueno

Maramu #220

 

On Feb 9, 2020 11:49 AM, "Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io" <portermcroberts@...> wrote:

I agree Nick— You're right, certainly about the industry norm.  And I’m sure there are many theories on this: and mine may be incorrect.  But the way I think of it: Crud exists in a myriad of sizes.  Crud forms… then  gets into the filter system and clogs.  If i have a series of sequentially smaller sized filters, i simply clog them all. and then replace them all.  If a bolus of crud makes it into the sequential filtering setup: filters essentially sort the crud into smaller sizes at a great cost (especially with the last Volvo filter now being fouled).  So we've cruised with the 2 micron setup for about 500 hours of motoring from panama to NZ last year and it seemed to work well.  no issues.  Filters seemed pretty good looking when i changed them  Usually around 100 hrs,  (I previously was quite derelict about it, prior to really understanding how important clean fuel was.)  I have noticed the manometer pressure reading on the setup would climb slightly over the 100 hrs, but never concerningly high.  

So scenario above A, with ostensibly clean fuel, worked for us, for this while.

 

 

So… Scenario B: Cruddy fuel shows up.  A slosh of crud makes it into the filter setup. (is this an isolated bit of crud, or does it advertize a yet much larger crub problem in the tank)  Currently it would saturate the 2 micron first filter and pressures climb, engine shuts down alerting us to a pressure scenario  and we change filter: but now we know we have cruddy fuel and need to polish it and the tank. (and why I’d like a separate fuel polishing system on board.)  Heres where my scenario breaks down: it depends on the amount of crud: pump it out and through baja filter into jerry cans? then run engine off jerry cans?  or...( I do have a bunch of 10mn  and 30mn sizes as well) as well put those on and let the filters clean the crud out: but if I increase the racor size then ill be clogging my 130$ volvo filters very fast: i carry about 4 of those, They're proprietary and hard to get in places.  It turns into a "S" show.  

 

So what's governed our cruising: sail smart, with wind as much as possible so we motor little.  Praise our relatively large 900 litre tank, and the freedom it adds to be discriminate about fuel choice. When others are fueling out of necessity, i find myself adding fuel not because i think we're low, but…  hey were sailors and should keep topped up stores.  

 

I'd be surprised if I’d completely thought this through, I'm sure there are some folks who really understand this at a much deeper level and I would love to hear from them and you.

 

And as you note Nick, it is the industry norm, and usually there is good reason for that!  To that end, if the Volvo-proprietary “C” filters were as inexpensive as the racors—I’d also stick to industry norm.  

 

I’d respectfully welcome any thinking and guidance.

 

Porter A54-154 with a  “H” model D3-110

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

 

Hi Scott and Porter,

 

I choose to use a 10 or even 30 micron filter on the Racor followed by the Volvo secondary filter which is 2 micron I believe.

 

In my opinion by having the pre-filter at 2 micron you are in effect only having one filter. So in the event of major contamination the Racor will plug and the engine will suffer from fuel starvation. You may also damage the fuel pump, although on the 54 the fuel is gravity fed from the tank to the filters.

 

The same principle applies to the water maker. There is a course filter followed by the fine filter. You can not just go straight to the fine.

 

I know this is a controversial subject but that is my opinion….and the industry norm.

 

Nick

 

Amelia AML 54-019

Kilada Greece

On 9 Feb 2020, at 15:10, Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io <portermcroberts@...> wrote:

 

I understand. We have the same setup. The dual racor (A vs B) and A+B if one wishes.  We keep the 2 micron on both A and B and use only A or B, switching back and forth.  Filter C is of course the very pricey Volvo-specific filter/fuel water separator, which is what I want to spare by using the 2 micron. I watch the pressure gauge on the racors a lot.  That’s why we change frequently, to keep pressures low.  We have no pre-pre filters.  

 

I remember a thread on this about a year ago, the 2 micron pre-filter argument.  That’s when we switched.  Its hard to be scientific when we have limited data re what works “best.”

 

Great comments on why to keep the tank full during storage.

 

Porter A54-152

 

On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

 

Porter,

I have the two racor filter setup. I consider this the primary filter / pre-filter.

Options:

1) FilterA only
2) FilterB only
3) FilterA and FilterB in parallel

Do you run the 2 micron filters here?

On my D3-110C there's a Volvo spin-on filter (2 micron) on the engine itself. We'll call that FilterC

Did you install a pre-filter before the Racors??
-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 

 

 

 

 


Matt Salatino
 

I took a look online at the H2Out. Looks OK. A bit pricey. Refills aren’t so bad, and they recommend them at your oil change frequency. Likely more than every 12 months?

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 9, 2020, at 9:07 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,

   They seem to rightfully be concerned about pressurized,  flammable or items that are dangerous in some way.    I don’t see how this item should be a concern.  Please keep in mind that I do not have any experience thus far with the H2Out system so do your own research!  Best of luck.

James
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 8:30 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

I wonder if the TSA will pull it out of checked baggage?

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 9, 2020, at 7:21 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Sorry the image is hard to read-
This is the write-up from Howes. It is used most of the time in fuel depots where the diesel is stored over the summer for home heating oil.
At Howes we understand the science and importance of year round lubricity and protection and our Meaner Power Kleaner is the proof. Safely eliminating water and removing the environment that creates bacteria, Meaner Power Kleaner contains no alcohol or harmful solvents and eliminates injector deposits. The end result is a performance enhancing product that protects your engine and boosts MPGs…guaranteed!
 
We then add Howes fuel treatment, This stuff is incredible. Please read the label. It also guaranteed 5% better fuel economy. PHOTO IS BELOW
 
Fair Winds
Eric
Amel Super Maramu #376
 
 
 
 

Sent: Sun
<image001.png>day, February 09, 2020 6:37 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Paranoia about the D3-110 Volvo Penta - diesel bug
 
All good points, James.
Working with dessicant dryers for air compressors, on a humid day, the crystals were pink (from clear) in a few hours. 

I fear that a proper dryer that one could set and forget for 6 months, if it exists, would be active, powered, and be another,complex system to maintain and monitor. Maybe a pressurized system like the ones on automobiles would work, that don’t allow air, readily into the system? I’ve not studied how they work, so I plead ignorance....😊

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:06 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,
 
  I agree.    The desiccant cartridges would need to be replaced from time to time  Most of the ones I have considered change colour indicating the need while others can be heated to drive off the moisture and returned to service.  I have been looking at some commercial solutions so the cost is fairly reasonable but more research is needed to determine the effectiveness and life expectancy in a marine environment.   If anyone has found a good workable solution for installed a desiccant in the vent line please share.
 
Best,
 
James
  
On Feb 9, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:
 

A desiccant/dryer would be a great idea. Finding one that is maintenance free, and passive, may be a problem.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 12:23 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Some great discussion here.  One item that I did not see discussed that could be  helpful especially in humid climates is adding a dessicant dryer to the vent line.  Regular replacement and lubrication of the O ring seal at the fill cap is important as well.  Best of luck.
 
James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
 
On Feb 9, 2020 11:49 AM, "Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io" <portermcroberts@...> wrote:
I agree Nick— You're right, certainly about the industry norm.  And I’m sure there are many theories on this: and mine may be incorrect.  But the way I think of it: Crud exists in a myriad of sizes.  Crud forms… then  gets into the filter system and clogs.  If i have a series of sequentially smaller sized filters, i simply clog them all. and then replace them all.  If a bolus of crud makes it into the sequential filtering setup: filters essentially sort the crud into smaller sizes at a great cost (especially with the last Volvo filter now being fouled).  So we've cruised with the 2 micron setup for about 500 hours of motoring from panama to NZ last year and it seemed to work well.  no issues.  Filters seemed pretty good looking when i changed them  Usually around 100 hrs,  (I previously was quite derelict about it, prior to really understanding how important clean fuel was.)  I have noticed the manometer pressure reading on the setup would climb slightly over the 100 hrs, but never concerningly high.  
So scenario above A, with ostensibly clean fuel, worked for us, for this while.
 
 
So… Scenario B: Cruddy fuel shows up.  A slosh of crud makes it into the filter setup. (is this an isolated bit of crud, or does it advertize a yet much larger crub problem in the tank)  Currently it would saturate the 2 micron first filter and pressures climb, engine shuts down alerting us to a pressure scenario  and we change filter: but now we know we have cruddy fuel and need to polish it and the tank. (and why I’d like a separate fuel polishing system on board.)  Heres where my scenario breaks down: it depends on the amount of crud: pump it out and through baja filter into jerry cans? then run engine off jerry cans?  or...( I do have a bunch of 10mn  and 30mn sizes as well) as well put those on and let the filters clean the crud out: but if I increase the racor size then ill be clogging my 130$ volvo filters very fast: i carry about 4 of those, They're proprietary and hard to get in places.  It turns into a "S" show.  
 
So what's governed our cruising: sail smart, with wind as much as possible so we motor little.  Praise our relatively large 900 litre tank, and the freedom it adds to be discriminate about fuel choice. When others are fueling out of necessity, i find myself adding fuel not because i think we're low, but…  hey were sailors and should keep topped up stores.  
 
I'd be surprised if I’d completely thought this through, I'm sure there are some folks who really understand this at a much deeper level and I would love to hear from them and you.
 
And as you note Nick, it is the industry norm, and usually there is good reason for that!  To that end, if the Volvo-proprietary “C” filters were as inexpensive as the racors—I’d also stick to industry norm.  
 
I’d respectfully welcome any thinking and guidance.
 
Porter A54-154 with a  “H” model D3-110
 
 
 
 
 
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:
 
Hi Scott and Porter,
 
I choose to use a 10 or even 30 micron filter on the Racor followed by the Volvo secondary filter which is 2 micron I believe.
 
In my opinion by having the pre-filter at 2 micron you are in effect only having one filter. So in the event of major contamination the Racor will plug and the engine will suffer from fuel starvation. You may also damage the fuel pump, although on the 54 the fuel is gravity fed from the tank to the filters.
 
The same principle applies to the water maker. There is a course filter followed by the fine filter. You can not just go straight to the fine.
 
I know this is a controversial subject but that is my opinion….and the industry norm.
 
Nick
 
Amelia AML 54-019
Kilada Greece
On 9 Feb 2020, at 15:10, Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io <portermcroberts@...> wrote:
 
I understand. We have the same setup. The dual racor (A vs B) and A+B if one wishes.  We keep the 2 micron on both A and B and use only A or B, switching back and forth.  Filter C is of course the very pricey Volvo-specific filter/fuel water separator, which is what I want to spare by using the 2 micron. I watch the pressure gauge on the racors a lot.  That’s why we change frequently, to keep pressures low.  We have no pre-pre filters.  
 
I remember a thread on this about a year ago, the 2 micron pre-filter argument.  That’s when we switched.  Its hard to be scientific when we have limited data re what works “best.”
 
Great comments on why to keep the tank full during storage.
 
Porter A54-152
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
 
Porter,

I have the two racor filter setup. I consider this the primary filter / pre-filter.

Options:

1) FilterA only
2) FilterB only
3) FilterA and FilterB in parallel

Do you run the 2 micron filters here?

On my D3-110C there's a Volvo spin-on filter (2 micron) on the engine itself. We'll call that FilterC

Did you install a pre-filter before the Racors??
-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
 
 
 
 
 



James Alton
 

Matt,

   If you are reading on the H2Out site under the section titled maintenance instructions,  read the last paragraph where they state the annual change out frequency.    I suspect that the change out frequency will depend on a lot of different factors.   Yes, it looks a little pricey to me too,  there could be a better solution.

James


On Feb 9, 2020, at 9:50 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

I took a look online at the H2Out. Looks OK. A bit pricey. Refills aren’t so bad, and they recommend them at your oil change frequency. Likely more than every 12 months?

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 9, 2020, at 9:07 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,

   They seem to rightfully be concerned about pressurized,  flammable or items that are dangerous in some way.    I don’t see how this item should be a concern.  Please keep in mind that I do not have any experience thus far with the H2Out system so do your own research!  Best of luck.

James
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 8:30 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

I wonder if the TSA will pull it out of checked baggage?

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 9, 2020, at 7:21 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Sorry the image is hard to read-
This is the write-up from Howes. It is used most of the time in fuel depots where the diesel is stored over the summer for home heating oil.
At Howes we understand the science and importance of year round lubricity and protection and our Meaner Power Kleaner is the proof. Safely eliminating water and removing the environment that creates bacteria, Meaner Power Kleaner contains no alcohol or harmful solvents and eliminates injector deposits. The end result is a performance enhancing product that protects your engine and boosts MPGs…guaranteed!
 
We then add Howes fuel treatment, This stuff is incredible. Please read the label. It also guaranteed 5% better fuel economy. PHOTO IS BELOW
 
Fair Winds
Eric
Amel Super Maramu #376
 
 
 
 

Sent: Sun
<image001.png>day, February 09, 2020 6:37 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Paranoia about the D3-110 Volvo Penta - diesel bug
 
All good points, James.
Working with dessicant dryers for air compressors, on a humid day, the crystals were pink (from clear) in a few hours. 

I fear that a proper dryer that one could set and forget for 6 months, if it exists, would be active, powered, and be another,complex system to maintain and monitor. Maybe a pressurized system like the ones on automobiles would work, that don’t allow air, readily into the system? I’ve not studied how they work, so I plead ignorance....😊

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:06 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Matt,
 
  I agree.    The desiccant cartridges would need to be replaced from time to time  Most of the ones I have considered change colour indicating the need while others can be heated to drive off the moisture and returned to service.  I have been looking at some commercial solutions so the cost is fairly reasonable but more research is needed to determine the effectiveness and life expectancy in a marine environment.   If anyone has found a good workable solution for installed a desiccant in the vent line please share.
 
Best,
 
James
  
On Feb 9, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt@...> wrote:
 

A desiccant/dryer would be a great idea. Finding one that is maintenance free, and passive, may be a problem.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On Feb 9, 2020, at 12:23 PM, James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...> wrote:

Some great discussion here.  One item that I did not see discussed that could be  helpful especially in humid climates is adding a dessicant dryer to the vent line.  Regular replacement and lubrication of the O ring seal at the fill cap is important as well.  Best of luck.
 
James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220
 
On Feb 9, 2020 11:49 AM, "Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io" <portermcroberts@...> wrote:
I agree Nick— You're right, certainly about the industry norm.  And I’m sure there are many theories on this: and mine may be incorrect.  But the way I think of it: Crud exists in a myriad of sizes.  Crud forms… then  gets into the filter system and clogs.  If i have a series of sequentially smaller sized filters, i simply clog them all. and then replace them all.  If a bolus of crud makes it into the sequential filtering setup: filters essentially sort the crud into smaller sizes at a great cost (especially with the last Volvo filter now being fouled).  So we've cruised with the 2 micron setup for about 500 hours of motoring from panama to NZ last year and it seemed to work well.  no issues.  Filters seemed pretty good looking when i changed them  Usually around 100 hrs,  (I previously was quite derelict about it, prior to really understanding how important clean fuel was.)  I have noticed the manometer pressure reading on the setup would climb slightly over the 100 hrs, but never concerningly high.  
So scenario above A, with ostensibly clean fuel, worked for us, for this while.
 
 
So… Scenario B: Cruddy fuel shows up.  A slosh of crud makes it into the filter setup. (is this an isolated bit of crud, or does it advertize a yet much larger crub problem in the tank)  Currently it would saturate the 2 micron first filter and pressures climb, engine shuts down alerting us to a pressure scenario  and we change filter: but now we know we have cruddy fuel and need to polish it and the tank. (and why I’d like a separate fuel polishing system on board.)  Heres where my scenario breaks down: it depends on the amount of crud: pump it out and through baja filter into jerry cans? then run engine off jerry cans?  or...( I do have a bunch of 10mn  and 30mn sizes as well) as well put those on and let the filters clean the crud out: but if I increase the racor size then ill be clogging my 130$ volvo filters very fast: i carry about 4 of those, They're proprietary and hard to get in places.  It turns into a "S" show.  
 
So what's governed our cruising: sail smart, with wind as much as possible so we motor little.  Praise our relatively large 900 litre tank, and the freedom it adds to be discriminate about fuel choice. When others are fueling out of necessity, i find myself adding fuel not because i think we're low, but…  hey were sailors and should keep topped up stores.  
 
I'd be surprised if I’d completely thought this through, I'm sure there are some folks who really understand this at a much deeper level and I would love to hear from them and you.
 
And as you note Nick, it is the industry norm, and usually there is good reason for that!  To that end, if the Volvo-proprietary “C” filters were as inexpensive as the racors—I’d also stick to industry norm.  
 
I’d respectfully welcome any thinking and guidance.
 
Porter A54-154 with a  “H” model D3-110
 
 
 
 
 
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:42 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:
 
Hi Scott and Porter,
 
I choose to use a 10 or even 30 micron filter on the Racor followed by the Volvo secondary filter which is 2 micron I believe.
 
In my opinion by having the pre-filter at 2 micron you are in effect only having one filter. So in the event of major contamination the Racor will plug and the engine will suffer from fuel starvation. You may also damage the fuel pump, although on the 54 the fuel is gravity fed from the tank to the filters.
 
The same principle applies to the water maker. There is a course filter followed by the fine filter. You can not just go straight to the fine.
 
I know this is a controversial subject but that is my opinion….and the industry norm.
 
Nick
 
Amelia AML 54-019
Kilada Greece
On 9 Feb 2020, at 15:10, Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io <portermcroberts@...> wrote:
 
I understand. We have the same setup. The dual racor (A vs B) and A+B if one wishes.  We keep the 2 micron on both A and B and use only A or B, switching back and forth.  Filter C is of course the very pricey Volvo-specific filter/fuel water separator, which is what I want to spare by using the 2 micron. I watch the pressure gauge on the racors a lot.  That’s why we change frequently, to keep pressures low.  We have no pre-pre filters.  
 
I remember a thread on this about a year ago, the 2 micron pre-filter argument.  That’s when we switched.  Its hard to be scientific when we have limited data re what works “best.”
 
Great comments on why to keep the tank full during storage.
 
Porter A54-152
 
On Feb 9, 2020, at 10:02 AM, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
 
Porter,

I have the two racor filter setup. I consider this the primary filter / pre-filter.

Options:

1) FilterA only
2) FilterB only
3) FilterA and FilterB in parallel

Do you run the 2 micron filters here?

On my D3-110C there's a Volvo spin-on filter (2 micron) on the engine itself. We'll call that FilterC

Did you install a pre-filter before the Racors??
-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com
 
 
 
 
 




Bernd Spanner
 

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Matt Salatino
 

You certainly don’t need to fill your tank to the top, if you don’t care about collecting water in your fuel, and the associated issues.
It’s certainly your choice!

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 10, 2020, at 10:13 AM, Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Bernd Spanner
 

Matt,
sure thats a policy discussion.
it would be very interesting how high above the bottom of the tank the fuel is taken out of the tank and how many liters are unusable fuel. Will be a job for my endoscope cam.
best thing is for sure to have a water separator, eg Racor, in the system.
--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Herbert Lackner
 

Bernd, 

the SN tank (I assume that SN119 is exact the same as SN120) has about 5l fuel (or a cocktail of fuel and water...) at the bottom of the tank that will stay there if you run it empty. I know it because we pumped out all fuel when we had water in the fuel last spring.
The original Volvo water seperator is not enough, we installed a Racor filter with water separator after the volvo water separator and water startet to collect there that just ran through the (almost empty) Volvo water separator.  When the Volvo alarm lamp turned on the Racor was already full with water, and some water was already in the fuel filter installed at the engine. Without the additional Racor we would have been in serious troubles on our way to hawaii. it is a must to install one on the SN if it is not there.
If you have water in your tank (and it is more likely to get water in your tank in the carribean than in the med) it will be a bigger problem if you do not have a good filled tank, the less fuel you have with some nice waves the more the water at the bottom will be mixed with the diesel. I did underestimate this effect.  Simply adding fuel from the jerry cans and filling up the tank made a big difference in the hourly amount of water we had in the water separator.

We used a vacuum pump that can be used for the oil change (with a very thin flexible but stiff hose) to reach the bottom of the tank , not beeing hindered by the baffle-plates.

keeping you tank full is a wise decision

herbert, SN120, Pacific Mexico



John Clark
 

Hi Bernd,
     When I purchased SM37 in 2016 the previous owner stressed to me to always keep the tank full and to always use the Baja filter.  He said in the 16 years he had her no one drop of fuel went into the tank other than through the Baja.  He did two circumnavigations and claims to never have had an issue.  I followed his advice.
A year into my ownership, I performed maintenance changing out the Racor filter and the Volvo engine filter.  Both were clean.  I intentionally ran the diesel tank dry and used a boroscope to inspect the tank and found it also spotless.    I continued to use the Baja filter and also add a Biocide each time I fill up.  
 
 There are two reasons to keep the tank full, one is it prevents condensation from forming in the tank as temperature changes.  Gas expands and contracts with temperature and draws in moisture.  In a climate with daily temperature changes the cycle can pull in a notable amount of moisture after a period.  The moisture aids in the growth of bio-organisms that feed on diesel.   Second reason at least  for me in the Atlantic and Caribbean, is to have the ability to run from a hurricane at a moments notice.  Amels have large tanks which give them excellent range in a pinch I like to have that capability.

   Regards,  John

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Brunswick GA   



On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:13 AM Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Dan Carlson
 

There is a third reason to keep the tank reasonably full.  As the tank gets closer to empty the sloshing of the remaining fuel at lower levels will begin to stir up that sludge cocktail at the bottom and it will begin to enter your fuel system.  You can see it in the Racor bowls, if may increase your vacuum gauge if you have it in the Racor and it can clog your fuel line.   

Last season another boater (non Amel) had engine trouble and changed his fuel filter. He then experienced air seeping into his fuel lines around the Racor connections.  In the end it turned out that was because his fuel line was so clogged.  He borrowed my suction fluid extractor and sucked about 20 liters of crud and fuel off the bottom of his tank before he had it clean enough to proceed.  When they were stopped they were not in a location with easy access to fuel polishing services.  He believes what broke it all loose was a very rough passage with low fuel levels.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm # 387, currently in Cartagena




On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 5:41 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Bernd,
     When I purchased SM37 in 2016 the previous owner stressed to me to always keep the tank full and to always use the Baja filter.  He said in the 16 years he had her no one drop of fuel went into the tank other than through the Baja.  He did two circumnavigations and claims to never have had an issue.  I followed his advice.
A year into my ownership, I performed maintenance changing out the Racor filter and the Volvo engine filter.  Both were clean.  I intentionally ran the diesel tank dry and used a boroscope to inspect the tank and found it also spotless.    I continued to use the Baja filter and also add a Biocide each time I fill up.  
 
 There are two reasons to keep the tank full, one is it prevents condensation from forming in the tank as temperature changes.  Gas expands and contracts with temperature and draws in moisture.  In a climate with daily temperature changes the cycle can pull in a notable amount of moisture after a period.  The moisture aids in the growth of bio-organisms that feed on diesel.   Second reason at least  for me in the Atlantic and Caribbean, is to have the ability to run from a hurricane at a moments notice.  Amels have large tanks which give them excellent range in a pinch I like to have that capability.

   Regards,  John

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Brunswick GA   



On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:13 AM Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal


Arnold Mente
 

Hi

I just want to get to the heart of this long discussion.

I have 30 years of positive experience with a full tank and an additive for diesel. There was never water in the tank and organic pollution. Last year I was so smart not to do this because lack of wind had covered a distance of 1500 SM under motor and had refueled several times. The result after 2 months in the port with a 1/4 full tank and without Grotamar (additiv) in the diesel was a complete algae infestation of the tank and lines before the winter break and the refilling of the tank.
I can highly recommend filling the tank completely with the addition of a good additiv at every opportunity and before any longer standstill.
There was a great deal of effort in cleaning the tank and completely replacing the lines and the filter system.

Best

Arnold
SY Zephyr
SM203


Am 12.02.2020 um 01:45 schrieb Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...>:

There is a third reason to keep the tank reasonably full.  As the tank gets closer to empty the sloshing of the remaining fuel at lower levels will begin to stir up that sludge cocktail at the bottom and it will begin to enter your fuel system.  You can see it in the Racor bowls, if may increase your vacuum gauge if you have it in the Racor and it can clog your fuel line.   

Last season another boater (non Amel) had engine trouble and changed his fuel filter. He then experienced air seeping into his fuel lines around the Racor connections.  In the end it turned out that was because his fuel line was so clogged.  He borrowed my suction fluid extractor and sucked about 20 liters of crud and fuel off the bottom of his tank before he had it clean enough to proceed.  When they were stopped they were not in a location with easy access to fuel polishing services.  He believes what broke it all loose was a very rough passage with low fuel levels.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm # 387, currently in Cartagena




On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 5:41 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Bernd,
     When I purchased SM37 in 2016 the previous owner stressed to me to always keep the tank full and to always use the Baja filter.  He said in the 16 years he had her no one drop of fuel went into the tank other than through the Baja.  He did two circumnavigations and claims to never have had an issue.  I followed his advice.
A year into my ownership, I performed maintenance changing out the Racor filter and the Volvo engine filter.  Both were clean.  I intentionally ran the diesel tank dry and used a boroscope to inspect the tank and found it also spotless.    I continued to use the Baja filter and also add a Biocide each time I fill up.  
 
 There are two reasons to keep the tank full, one is it prevents condensation from forming in the tank as temperature changes.  Gas expands and contracts with temperature and draws in moisture.  In a climate with daily temperature changes the cycle can pull in a notable amount of moisture after a period.  The moisture aids in the growth of bio-organisms that feed on diesel.   Second reason at least  for me in the Atlantic and Caribbean, is to have the ability to run from a hurricane at a moments notice.  Amels have large tanks which give them excellent range in a pinch I like to have that capability.

   Regards,  John

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Brunswick GA   



On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:13 AM Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal








--
Arnold
SY Zephyr SM203


Dan Carlson
 

Thanks Arnold, it would be helpful to know if you were refueling with bio-diesel?  And if you were in a hot tropical location?

I have the dilema of being in Cartagena where they sell bio-diesel. I currently have 475 liters and need to decide if I top up before heading out or wait until I can reach a country with better fuel, but risk running the tank to less than 1/3. 

Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm #387.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 8:08 PM Arnold Mente via Groups.Io <Arnold.mente=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi

I just want to get to the heart of this long discussion.

I have 30 years of positive experience with a full tank and an additive for diesel. There was never water in the tank and organic pollution. Last year I was so smart not to do this because lack of wind had covered a distance of 1500 SM under motor and had refueled several times. The result after 2 months in the port with a 1/4 full tank and without Grotamar (additiv) in the diesel was a complete algae infestation of the tank and lines before the winter break and the refilling of the tank.
I can highly recommend filling the tank completely with the addition of a good additiv at every opportunity and before any longer standstill.
There was a great deal of effort in cleaning the tank and completely replacing the lines and the filter system.

Best

Arnold
SY Zephyr
SM203


Am 12.02.2020 um 01:45 schrieb Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...>:

There is a third reason to keep the tank reasonably full.  As the tank gets closer to empty the sloshing of the remaining fuel at lower levels will begin to stir up that sludge cocktail at the bottom and it will begin to enter your fuel system.  You can see it in the Racor bowls, if may increase your vacuum gauge if you have it in the Racor and it can clog your fuel line.   

Last season another boater (non Amel) had engine trouble and changed his fuel filter. He then experienced air seeping into his fuel lines around the Racor connections.  In the end it turned out that was because his fuel line was so clogged.  He borrowed my suction fluid extractor and sucked about 20 liters of crud and fuel off the bottom of his tank before he had it clean enough to proceed.  When they were stopped they were not in a location with easy access to fuel polishing services.  He believes what broke it all loose was a very rough passage with low fuel levels.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm # 387, currently in Cartagena




On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 5:41 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Bernd,
     When I purchased SM37 in 2016 the previous owner stressed to me to always keep the tank full and to always use the Baja filter.  He said in the 16 years he had her no one drop of fuel went into the tank other than through the Baja.  He did two circumnavigations and claims to never have had an issue.  I followed his advice.
A year into my ownership, I performed maintenance changing out the Racor filter and the Volvo engine filter.  Both were clean.  I intentionally ran the diesel tank dry and used a boroscope to inspect the tank and found it also spotless.    I continued to use the Baja filter and also add a Biocide each time I fill up.  
 
 There are two reasons to keep the tank full, one is it prevents condensation from forming in the tank as temperature changes.  Gas expands and contracts with temperature and draws in moisture.  In a climate with daily temperature changes the cycle can pull in a notable amount of moisture after a period.  The moisture aids in the growth of bio-organisms that feed on diesel.   Second reason at least  for me in the Atlantic and Caribbean, is to have the ability to run from a hurricane at a moments notice.  Amels have large tanks which give them excellent range in a pinch I like to have that capability.

   Regards,  John

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Brunswick GA   



On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:13 AM Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal








--
Arnold
SY Zephyr SM203


Arnold Mente
 

Hi Dan,
in Europe you only get diesel with organic additives everywhere. In addition, the EU has passed a law on the use of effective additives for environmental reasons. Only professional users have access to such additives. In the meantime, various manufacturers are trying to find an effective replacement and have so far already had new products on the market. Grotamar, I think the best additive is no longer being manufactured. It is particularly important that the tank is full to keep the amount of oxygen as small as possible. I do not know which products are available to you. Liqui Moly and ERC are the alternatives I know currently in Europe. In countries such as Colombia (Cartagena), the problem should be known and additives should also be available.
I hope it helps you in your decision, air and water are the biggest enemy of biodiesel as well as the time of storage because it is organic.

Best

Arnold 
SY Zephyr
SM203

Am 12.02.2020 um 19:45 schrieb Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...>:

Thanks Arnold, it would be helpful to know if you were refueling with bio-diesel?  And if you were in a hot tropical location?

I have the dilema of being in Cartagena where they sell bio-diesel. I currently have 475 liters and need to decide if I top up before heading out or wait until I can reach a country with better fuel, but risk running the tank to less than 1/3. 

Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm #387.

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 8:08 PM Arnold Mente via Groups.Io <Arnold.mente=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi

I just want to get to the heart of this long discussion.

I have 30 years of positive experience with a full tank and an additive for diesel. There was never water in the tank and organic pollution. Last year I was so smart not to do this because lack of wind had covered a distance of 1500 SM under motor and had refueled several times. The result after 2 months in the port with a 1/4 full tank and without Grotamar (additiv) in the diesel was a complete algae infestation of the tank and lines before the winter break and the refilling of the tank.
I can highly recommend filling the tank completely with the addition of a good additiv at every opportunity and before any longer standstill.
There was a great deal of effort in cleaning the tank and completely replacing the lines and the filter system.

Best

Arnold
SY Zephyr
SM203


Am 12.02.2020 um 01:45 schrieb Dan Carlson <carlsdan61@...>:

There is a third reason to keep the tank reasonably full.  As the tank gets closer to empty the sloshing of the remaining fuel at lower levels will begin to stir up that sludge cocktail at the bottom and it will begin to enter your fuel system.  You can see it in the Racor bowls, if may increase your vacuum gauge if you have it in the Racor and it can clog your fuel line.   

Last season another boater (non Amel) had engine trouble and changed his fuel filter. He then experienced air seeping into his fuel lines around the Racor connections.  In the end it turned out that was because his fuel line was so clogged.  He borrowed my suction fluid extractor and sucked about 20 liters of crud and fuel off the bottom of his tank before he had it clean enough to proceed.  When they were stopped they were not in a location with easy access to fuel polishing services.  He believes what broke it all loose was a very rough passage with low fuel levels.

Regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm # 387, currently in Cartagena




On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 5:41 PM John Clark <john.biohead@...> wrote:
Hi Bernd,
     When I purchased SM37 in 2016 the previous owner stressed to me to always keep the tank full and to always use the Baja filter.  He said in the 16 years he had her no one drop of fuel went into the tank other than through the Baja.  He did two circumnavigations and claims to never have had an issue.  I followed his advice.
A year into my ownership, I performed maintenance changing out the Racor filter and the Volvo engine filter.  Both were clean.  I intentionally ran the diesel tank dry and used a boroscope to inspect the tank and found it also spotless.    I continued to use the Baja filter and also add a Biocide each time I fill up.  
 
 There are two reasons to keep the tank full, one is it prevents condensation from forming in the tank as temperature changes.  Gas expands and contracts with temperature and draws in moisture.  In a climate with daily temperature changes the cycle can pull in a notable amount of moisture after a period.  The moisture aids in the growth of bio-organisms that feed on diesel.   Second reason at least  for me in the Atlantic and Caribbean, is to have the ability to run from a hurricane at a moments notice.  Amels have large tanks which give them excellent range in a pinch I like to have that capability.

   Regards,  John

John Clark
SV Annie SM 37
Brunswick GA   



On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:13 AM Bernd Spanner <bernd.spanner@...> wrote:

Why fill up your tank to the max when you know where you want to go?

I think filling it up to the max only makes sense when you go for a really long passage and then you add some anti diesel bug adds.
When you fly on an airliner to your boat they only take as much fuel as they need plus alternate, contingency and a bit more for unforeseens.

--
Bernd
SN 119 / Cascais, Portugal








--
Arnold
SY Zephyr SM203



Arnold Mente

Urbaniweg 12
7000 Eisenstadt 

Tel: +43 660 6699019

arnold.mente@...




--
Arnold
SY Zephyr SM203