Topics

Whole Boat Permanent Inverter for 220VAC 50Hz

Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Scott,

I probably miss understood the issue.  But, I still stand by my math.  I agree with most of what you said.... And, If I had $20K to install an electrical system on Aquarius, it would be similar to yours.

Fair Winds,
Ken

eric freedman
 

Hi Michael,

A transformer can only change a voltage not the frequency.

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of michael winand via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 6:26 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Whole Boat Permanent Inverter for 220VAC 50Hz

 

Hi Scott, I haven't yet installed the isolation transformer,  at present we don't have a need for one, I  may have  misunderstood the victron information, I  thought the largest one's could adjust the  hrtz.

Regards Michael winand  nebo sm251

 

On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 8:25 am, Scott SV Tengah

<Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Michael,

Have you used the VE-Config software, or other means, to check the output hz on your system when connected to 60hz shorepower? Does it show that you're getting 50hz output?

When I was designing my system, the Victron tech I talked to stated that the Victron Isolation Transformer is flexible in that it can accept 50/60hz but will not adjust a 60hz input to 50hz or vice versa. The data sheet seems to imply the same.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

michael winand
 

Hi Scott, I haven't yet installed the isolation transformer,  at present we don't have a need for one, I  may have  misunderstood the victron information, I  thought the largest one's could adjust the  hrtz.
Regards Michael winand  nebo sm251


On Mon, 18 May 2020 at 8:25 am, Scott SV Tengah
<Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Michael,

Have you used the VE-Config software, or other means, to check the output hz on your system when connected to 60hz shorepower? Does it show that you're getting 50hz output?

When I was designing my system, the Victron tech I talked to stated that the Victron Isolation Transformer is flexible in that it can accept 50/60hz but will not adjust a 60hz input to 50hz or vice versa. The data sheet seems to imply the same.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Michael,

Have you used the VE-Config software, or other means, to check the output hz on your system when connected to 60hz shorepower? Does it show that you're getting 50hz output?

When I was designing my system, the Victron tech I talked to stated that the Victron Isolation Transformer is flexible in that it can accept 50/60hz but will not adjust a 60hz input to 50hz or vice versa. The data sheet seems to imply the same.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

The stated inverter loss you mentioned is a bit simplified. A deeper look will allow you to make the best decision given your usage patterns, which is different than everyone else's. This may be especially helpful for you as you think about adding lithium, because there are differences to lead-acid that aren't so obvious until you dig deeper. Efficiency wasn't a stated goal in Gary's post, but I presume he doesn't want to waste energy/money.

We've been living full-time with our full-boat inverter system for 18 months. Every single AC device aside from the 2nd Skylla-i Charger is wired to operate via our Quattro 5kw inverter. We routinely run the scuba compressor for an hour via inverter, with no problems. I believe the Bauer Junior II compressor has a 3x inrush current, so even 6.6kw inrush doesn't cause issues with our Quattro 5kw. Over the past 18 months, I've worked at optimizing both power production and usage. Based on those optimizations, we went from running the genset and charging our lithiums every 3 days with 200amps to now, not running the genset at all on anchor and as I am typing this at 11am, finding ways to burn off the excess solar energy to keep the batteries from getting above 90% SOC. We are running the dishwasher/washing machine/etc at the highest temp setting to burn off the excess energy.

We nearly eliminated our genset usage and ran every AC appliance aboard, efficiently, through a bit of research. It may be tempting to apply rules of thumb, but the danger if it's wrong is that it leads you to making bad decisions. Here's what I've found, which may be helpful to you and to others:

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Output-rating-operating-temperature-and-efficiency.pdf

Under section 3, they talk about efficiency vs. load. This is for the Victron 3kw, but since Victron states that the Quattro and Multiplus are mostly the same internally, let's assume it scales, just with beefier components and therefore higher numbers. The Victron inverters seem to hit above 90% efficiency by 100/3000 = 6.67% of rated load. For us, that means we run the Quattro 5kw for all uses except low load items like the computer, projector and LCD. For those, we use the 800w Mastervolt inverter that came with the boat. Note also I would suggest installing a simple $5 switch to turn off the inverter when not in use. Our Quattro draws at least 40 measured watts when idle, so that $5 switch saves us 40/26.3*=36AH a day alone.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf

Regarding genset load, our A54 came with the Onan 11KW MDKBN. Luckily Victron tested this very genset and based on the data, we can deduce that it's not necessarily best to run at full load. The efficiency curve starts to flatten out considerably around 5kw, which is less than half load for us. Further, I recall from the Onan documentation that for maximum longevity and reiterated here by Mastervolt and Fischer Panda that running above 70% reduces genset longevity. For us, our 120a Quattro + 80a Skylla=200 amps of charging (which admittedly we don't use much anymore) puts roughly a 5.2kw load on the genset which puts us in the sweet spot with respect to specific fuel consumption and most emissions measures while maximizing longevity.

Also, I think you are confusing inverter output and charger input - when Gary talks about a 4kw inverter, I believe he is talking about the inverter AC output, not AC charger input. For example, my Quattro is called a 5kw inverter but that means it can output 5kw AC from the inverter. The charger portion is only 120amps, which is roughly 120*25.6= 3kw draw from genset or shorepower when charging my batteries. It's important to understand the difference in order to size the system correctly.

With respect to the hypothetical 62 amp deficit if he were to run a 100amp (~2.6kw) charger with a 4kw inverter, there are a few more things to think about:

1) I have never run a 4kw continuous load for more than say 20 minutes. As you mention, the loads are only for a short period. Even with my aft AC, the duty cycle is really less than 40%, which means an average load of only 600w. With the washing machine, the full current is drawn when the water is being heated, which isn't for too long.
2) If you were to somehow find a way to use 4kw continuously all day, you will find that your inverter will likely heat up and reduce output, per the curves on the Victron white paper. 
3) If you are intending to go lithium, the 62 amp deficit on say my 450AH system would mean the batteries could make up the 62amp difference for over 7 hours at 4kw peak usage.

I know everyone has their own energy needs, but we've found after some thinking and tinkering, that with our usage patterns and system, we're very happy to have the inverter run everything on the boat. 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

greg greg
 

WOW Instalation!!!! Looks like nuc power station!
keep this one - its value is over the boat value!

Billy Newport
 

So,
I don't have an Amel yet but am buying a 55 right now. My current boat, a 2015 Jeanneau 439 has been fully converted to lithium/solar professionally. See photos here: (https://photos.app.goo.gl/YZv6xncC821Rquqn8).

My boat has all 110v AC plugs (including air conditioners) running on dual Victron Multiplus 3kw/120 inverter chargers. I have dual 560aH lithionics batteries with external BMS and a common load and charge bus. The victrons are connected to both the load and charge buses using dual runs (5ft) of 00 cable.

I have 3 air cons, dual dometic 9kw and a single 16kw. The 16kw has a smartstart. All 3 air cons are connected to a single Victron, the other house sockets (microwave, water heater and sockets) are on the other Victron.

The boat has 1200w of Solar and I get about 50A at peak in NYC and about 95a peak for more hours well south of here. I also have a 360a API alternator with a balmar mc614 temp compensated. The alternator is detuned to generate 230a at 63c temperature because of heat generation, it's like having a 5kw heater in the engine room...

I can run a single 9kw AC unit on invertors and charge the boat the following day when south of here. I can run all 3 units on inverters also.

I do see low voltage alarms from the inverter when the AC's kick on the compressors. Normal pull for a 16kw is about 10a @ 115v (remember I rarely get 120V into the boat, the dock power wobbles down as low as 112v and that also means it will pull more amps). Normal pull for the 9kws is about 7a @ 115V.

The Victron can supply 4.4kw for a minute and this allows a single Victron to run all 3 AC units at steady state BUT if the planets align and 2 units kick on simultaneously, even over 5 ft of dual 00 cables, I'll see 500a pulses from the lithiums and the victrons complain about low voltage briefly and then recover.

I have run all 3 units, a microwave, the water heater which pulls about 700a (max pull for a single battery is 400a so 800 for both) and it does trip there (the inverters trip on low voltage).

Looking at my desired Amel 55. The inverters are too far from the batteries. The batteries are under the galley sole, the inverters are on the port engine room wall. That's a much bigger run than on my current boat. 24v would possibly double the distance to maybe 10ft but you're still not better than my current system. I'd relocate the inverters in to the main cabin somehow if doing it again.

Heat wise, I've found the victrons only get really hot charging, not inverting. I run mine one over the other and needed to limit the top one to 60a to keep it from getting hot so I just push 120 + 60 a when on shower power which is plenty for me. On a generator, you might want 120+120 but then you need to cool it and I didn't have the space on my boat.

If I was running the boat in euro land then I would have added a 220v Victron charger. A smaller one would have worked fine (60a or similar) on shore power.

Billy (buying iolani hopefully)
So, it can be done.

Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Gary,

The conversion between DC to AC the loss, depending on your inverter, could be as much as 10% to 30%.   Also, if you only have 100amp battery charger, then you are only supplying 2.5KW into your batteries, but with your proposed 4KW inverter you could pull out 1.5KW above the potential charging input while charging your batteries (That is -62Amps).  I would consider that completely unacceptable!  Running your AC units would not be possible more that a few hours, they would just draw down your batteries and you might not be able to keep up the charge.  And another thing, your Genset should be run at full power, which would be at least 6.5 KW.  But giving your 4KW inverter you would only be able to pull 4KW from your Genset.

This might be a better way to go.

When we bought Aquarius she was set up as follows:
1500 watt inverter
Plugs throughout the boat - Supplied by either - Inverter, Shore Power, or Genset
Washer - Shore Power or Inverter
Dishwasher - Shore Power or Inverter
3 Aircon - Shore Power or Inverter or Genset
Microwave - Inverter, Shore Power, or Genset

Since then we have upgraded to a 2.5KW inverter, but we have made no changes to the distribution panel.... YET.  We are just about ready to get LiFePO4 batteries, and we may make the following changes.  

So, if I were you, this is what I would do:

2.5KW - 4KW Inverter (some electronics have large inrush current when starting, 4KW might help them start up without the use of expensive soft start options)

If Genset is running, or we are on Shore Power, the Inverter is turned off.

Plugs throughout the boat - Supplied by either - Inverter, Shore Power, or Genset.
Washer -  You may want to make this Inverter only because the water pumps like 50HZ only. 
Dishwasher -  You may want to make this Inverter only because the water pumps like 50HZ only. 
3 Aircon - Shore Power or Inverter of Genset
Microwave - Inverter, Shore Power, or Genset

Your Washer or Dishwasher only runs for a short amount of time, and can be easily run off your Inverter only.  But supplying your entire boat off the inverter would not be the best way to go.

If you are somewhere that has bad shore power, don't connect your AMEL!

Ken Powers
Currently on Lock Down in Thailand
But today - We can get a foot massage!
SM2K #262











michael winand
 

Gary, we also have the same system as Scott  describes, but are using firefly oases battery. 
Victron also make a isolation transformer that can have duel voltage  input and will adjust the htz .
We really like the Quattro, on the hard now with a 10 amp 240v , I have adjusted the imput current to max 8 amps and the inverter assistance to allow us to run what we need. 
Regards Michael winand  Nebo sm 251


On Sun, 17 May 2020 at 5:29 am, Scott SV Tengah
<Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Gary,

We faced the same issue you did. I want to make sure we have 220/50 at all times because while I'm very careful and am very unlikely to accidentally run the washing machine/dishwasher/microwave on 60hz shore power, I can't rely on new crew always remembering.

Here's my system, as you may know: Victron Quattro 5000w/24v/120amp charger/inverter, 450AH lithium, Victron Skylla-i 80amp second charger.

Right now, if I find myself with 250v/60hz power, I will plug in, if necessary, to charge the lithiums and then completely unplug. This rarely takes more than 2 hours. My current system is wired so shore power goes to the Quattro first (which replaces the Amel transfer switch, too) and while it charges using the 120amp Quattro charger, it will also passthrough the 60hz power to the boat. That is obviously not ideal. I have confirmed with Victron that there is no way to disable this passthrough when shorepower is detected.

My Skylla-i is wired on the second AC output on the Quattro to avoid running the Skylla charger when the Quattro is acting as an inverter. I did this because 99.99% of the time I'm not in a marina, so I would like to be able to charge using both the Quattro and Skylla (200 amps total) while on genset.

This works great for me as we can run everything on the inverter/batteries. The aft AC will easily run all night on battery. If it's 40c and we need to run multiple AC units, that might be different.

A possible improvement would be to wire a switch somehow so that it's wired as a described above normally but you can flip the switch and have the 60hz shorepower only go to the Skylla when plugged into 60hz shorepower. That way, the skylla feeds 80amps DC to the batteries and the Quattro, not seeing shorepower, would act as an inverter and supply 230/50hz to the boat. 

Note that the Skylla-i will take 60hz, but it must be above 185v. I'm sure you could find a "world capable" 100-250v/50-60hz charger, but we couldn't find one that had high output and was compatible with the BMS, which is absolutely necessary when charging lithiums.

If you don't want to add the second charger and you have a solar MPPT and you won't find yourselves with the 60hz problem often, you could simply get a DC power supply and feed the DC output into your solar MPPT. A 30amp DC power supply can be had for less than $100. Not ideal but works well enough for occasional use. It's also a lot simpler and cheaper.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Gary,

We faced the same issue you did. I want to make sure we have 220/50 at all times because while I'm very careful and am very unlikely to accidentally run the washing machine/dishwasher/microwave on 60hz shore power, I can't rely on new crew always remembering.

Here's my system, as you may know: Victron Quattro 5000w/24v/120amp charger/inverter, 450AH lithium, Victron Skylla-i 80amp second charger.

Right now, if I find myself with 250v/60hz power, I will plug in, if necessary, to charge the lithiums and then completely unplug. This rarely takes more than 2 hours. My current system is wired so shore power goes to the Quattro first (which replaces the Amel transfer switch, too) and while it charges using the 120amp Quattro charger, it will also passthrough the 60hz power to the boat. That is obviously not ideal. I have confirmed with Victron that there is no way to disable this passthrough when shorepower is detected.

My Skylla-i is wired on the second AC output on the Quattro to avoid running the Skylla charger when the Quattro is acting as an inverter. I did this because 99.99% of the time I'm not in a marina, so I would like to be able to charge using both the Quattro and Skylla (200 amps total) while on genset.

This works great for me as we can run everything on the inverter/batteries. The aft AC will easily run all night on battery. If it's 40c and we need to run multiple AC units, that might be different.

A possible improvement would be to wire a switch somehow so that it's wired as a described above normally but you can flip the switch and have the 60hz shorepower only go to the Skylla when plugged into 60hz shorepower. That way, the skylla feeds 80amps DC to the batteries and the Quattro, not seeing shorepower, would act as an inverter and supply 230/50hz to the boat. 

Note that the Skylla-i will take 60hz, but it must be above 185v. I'm sure you could find a "world capable" 100-250v/50-60hz charger, but we couldn't find one that had high output and was compatible with the BMS, which is absolutely necessary when charging lithiums.

If you don't want to add the second charger and you have a solar MPPT and you won't find yourselves with the 60hz problem often, you could simply get a DC power supply and feed the DC output into your solar MPPT. A 30amp DC power supply can be had for less than $100. Not ideal but works well enough for occasional use. It's also a lot simpler and cheaper.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hello Gary;

 

We are looking into supplying the entire 220V panel from the battery bank by inverters, so we can run all boat systems from the battery bank. With new inverter/chargers there is the ability to feed both shore power and generator power directly, thus elimination the over decade old original switch that came with the boat. This has been a source of thought from time to time, as some apparently have had fires due to the failure of this switch.

 

I won’t go into the details of our developing design concept, since it does not answer your question. However, in our design concept, your idea of providing a separate charger that runs on 110/60Hz, would be sufficient to address the frequency difference. So, in all cases, in the absence of 220/50Hz shore power or generator, the batteries would be supplying the inverter that is supplying the entire 220V panel on board. The 110/60Hz charger just supplies the 24V needed for the inverters. This would be completely isolated from all other systems and would simply be a 110/60Hz shore power connection and two wires to the battery bank, thus keeping the two systems isolated.

 

Just another though.

 

Happy Sailing;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

AMEL 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gary Wells via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 6:25 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Whole Boat Permanent Inverter for 220VAC 50Hz

 

[Edited Message Follows]

There have been a couple of recent discussions about getting 220V aboard while plugged in to U.S. (North American) shore power and some of the considerations between the 50Hz/60Hz difference. While we've enjoyed Adagio's collection of adapters which allow easy connection to shore power pretty much anywhere, the 50Hz/60Hz  consideration has been on my "list" for some time now. 

It is certainly not "critical" that we have 50Hz aboard all the the time as most of the appliances (most importantly the Air Conditioners!) tolerate the disparity without complaint.  However, I feel the microwave and the washing machine both are sensitive enough to warrant proper Hz. We do have a small inverter already (about 800w) and if we want (need) to do a small load of laundry in cold water we can indeed use the washer by stretching an extension cord from the inverter to the washer.

 

I  have been thinking over providing inverter power to the whole boat on a permanent basis and was wondering if anyone else has done this or considered it.  It would mean installation of a large inverter (perhaps 4,000 watts, pure sine wave) and using that output exclusively to the boat's power input switchover box (where the shore power comes in now).  The shore power would come aboard and run to the batter charger and nothing else.  (The Genset and "magic switch" cutover would be the same).

 

So, then we would have 220VAC at 50Hz regardless of the situation of the shore power .. it would be a kind of power conditioner as well, smoothing the voltage and frequency if the shore power is shaky.  I do see an advantage to this, as the battery charger can accept a wider range of voltage/Hz variance than the appliances.

 

The obvious downside is that the whole boat would be essentially powered by the battery bank. Shore power would come only to the battery charger, then get converted to 24VDC and then get inverted back to house power at 220VAC 50Hz.  This is obviously less efficient and presents a potential additional battery drain should the Inverter be left on while underway .. although .. with wind and solar providing some power, the use of a 220VAC 50Hz appliance without the need to run the Generator could be a good advantage..

 

Oh, my ..  it's quite a dilemma :)

 

Any thoughts on the idea? 

 

Thanks kindly,

Gary W.
SM209, Adagio
Georgia, USA

Mark Erdos
 

Gary,

 

Do you also plan to run the air-conditioning from the inverter?

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gary Wells
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020 3:25 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Whole Boat Permanent Inverter for 220VAC 50Hz

 

[Edited Message Follows]

There have been a couple of recent discussions about getting 220V aboard while plugged in to U.S. (North American) shore power and some of the considerations between the 50Hz/60Hz difference. While we've enjoyed Adagio's collection of adapters which allow easy connection to shore power pretty much anywhere, the 50Hz/60Hz  consideration has been on my "list" for some time now. 

It is certainly not "critical" that we have 50Hz aboard all the the time as most of the appliances (most importantly the Air Conditioners!) tolerate the disparity without complaint.  However, I feel the microwave and the washing machine both are sensitive enough to warrant proper Hz. We do have a small inverter already (about 800w) and if we want (need) to do a small load of laundry in cold water we can indeed use the washer by stretching an extension cord from the inverter to the washer.

 

I  have been thinking over providing inverter power to the whole boat on a permanent basis and was wondering if anyone else has done this or considered it.  It would mean installation of a large inverter (perhaps 4,000 watts, pure sine wave) and using that output exclusively to the boat's power input switchover box (where the shore power comes in now).  The shore power would come aboard and run to the batter charger and nothing else.  (The Genset and "magic switch" cutover would be the same).

 

So, then we would have 220VAC at 50Hz regardless of the situation of the shore power .. it would be a kind of power conditioner as well, smoothing the voltage and frequency if the shore power is shaky.  I do see an advantage to this, as the battery charger can accept a wider range of voltage/Hz variance than the appliances.

 

The obvious downside is that the whole boat would be essentially powered by the battery bank. Shore power would come only to the battery charger, then get converted to 24VDC and then get inverted back to house power at 220VAC 50Hz.  This is obviously less efficient and presents a potential additional battery drain should the Inverter be left on while underway .. although .. with wind and solar providing some power, the use of a 220VAC 50Hz appliance without the need to run the Generator could be a good advantage..

 

Oh, my ..  it's quite a dilemma :)

 

Any thoughts on the idea? 

 

Thanks kindly,

Gary W.
SM209, Adagio
Georgia, USA

Gary Wells
 
Edited

There have been a couple of recent discussions about getting 220V aboard while plugged in to U.S. (North American) shore power and some of the considerations between the 50Hz/60Hz difference. While we've enjoyed Adagio's collection of adapters which allow easy connection to shore power pretty much anywhere, the 50Hz/60Hz  consideration has been on my "list" for some time now. 

It is certainly not "critical" that we have 50Hz aboard all the the time as most of the appliances (most importantly the Air Conditioners!) tolerate the disparity without complaint.  However, I feel the microwave and the washing machine both are sensitive enough to warrant proper Hz. We do have a small inverter already (about 800w) and if we want (need) to do a small load of laundry in cold water we can indeed use the washer by stretching an extension cord from the inverter to the washer.

 

I  have been thinking over providing inverter power to the whole boat on a permanent basis and was wondering if anyone else has done this or considered it.  It would mean installation of a large inverter (perhaps 4,000 watts, pure sine wave) and using that output exclusively to the boat's power input switchover box (where the shore power comes in now).  The shore power would come aboard and run to the batter charger and nothing else.  (The Genset and "magic switch" cutover would be the same).

 

So, then we would have 220VAC at 50Hz regardless of the situation of the shore power .. it would be a kind of power conditioner as well, smoothing the voltage and frequency if the shore power is shaky.  I do see an advantage to this, as the battery charger can accept a wider range of voltage/Hz variance than the appliances.

 

The obvious downside is that the whole boat would be essentially powered by the battery bank. Shore power would come only to the battery charger, then get converted to 24VDC and then get inverted back to house power at 220VAC 50Hz.  This is obviously less efficient and presents a potential additional battery drain should the Inverter be left on while underway .. although .. with wind and solar providing some power, the use of a 220VAC 50Hz appliance without the need to run the Generator could be a good advantage..

 

Oh, my ..  it's quite a dilemma :)

 

Any thoughts on the idea? 

 

Thanks kindly,

Gary W.
SM209, Adagio
Georgia, USA