Topics

Insurance

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Well said Pat.

Danny

On 24 May 2020 at 01:33 "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote:

Mark,
 I emailed Kent yesterday, that I was going to stop responding to posts on this subject ,as I don't want to take the time or clog up this site. But the 2% proposed deposit into a reserve fund ,was a one time deposit, which upon leaving the group, you would receive a 50% refund,provided you had not made any claims during your membership. With the group protecting you from a total loss ,perhaps an owner may chose to continue full coverage , but could insure his boat at a much lower fixed value ,which should result in a much lower annual premium. If you parked $4000. in the reserve fund  and it lowered your premium by a significant amount ,it could be a good return on your deposit . 
However ,I agree and related this to Kent ,its like herding cats ,  I have read comments that were based on false assumptions or the misinterpretations of what was originally proposed and I felt compelled correct them,can't keep doing it. For this to work ,it would need to be lead by someone well organized, it would have to be kept simple and limited in scope. I have said that ,it may be a case of a good idea whose time is yet to arrive. If underwriters continue to leave the market ,and coverage continues to shrink and continue to get more expensive ,its time may arrive . 
But I don't think it is now, I did not make the original post on this subject , but I have proposed some plans for it, and believe it has merit,  if an Amel Risk co-op ever evolves , count me in. But for now ,I will now respond to further discussions on this site , as often a subject goes on and on , clogging the site without end. 
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Fri, May 22, 2020 6:15 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance

Not wanting to poop on this idea, I am in favor or the concept, but the proposed numbers just do not seem to work.
 
If I am to contribute 2% of the insured value of my boat, this amount is greater than what I am currently paying for my current company provided insurance (with minimal deductable and liability included).
 
Just my 2¢ but to think 200 owners would agree to this is IMO a bit of a pipe dream. Getting 10 people to agree on anything is difficult let alone 200.
 
Also, the idea of an assessment is frightening to me. Being at the mercy of others concerning my out of pocket expenses is very unappealing.
 
Perhaps the more reasonable approach is to join an association such as the OCC and utilize their recommendations and discounts pre-arranged for members at Top-Sail. I am not sure but, there might be other groups about the world. Or, form a group to obtain group-rate policies as someone else suggested we can favor one particular insurance company. However, the latter suggestion has already been pursued by Bill Rouse to no avail.
 
One last thought is licensing. Without valid verification, it might be impossible to stay in marinas etc. or for those that need it, a mortgage on the vessel.
 
Just my 2¢ worth.
 
Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I would like to see members of this group continue discussions as they find good options for their Amels.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
www.creampuff.us
 
 
From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "karkauai via groups.io" <karkauai@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 17 May 2020 at 3:22 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance
 
Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243
 
 

Patrick McAneny
 

Mark,
 I emailed Kent yesterday, that I was going to stop responding to posts on this subject ,as I don't want to take the time or clog up this site. But the 2% proposed deposit into a reserve fund ,was a one time deposit, which upon leaving the group, you would receive a 50% refund,provided you had not made any claims during your membership. With the group protecting you from a total loss ,perhaps an owner may chose to continue full coverage , but could insure his boat at a much lower fixed value ,which should result in a much lower annual premium. If you parked $4000. in the reserve fund  and it lowered your premium by a significant amount ,it could be a good return on your deposit . 
However ,I agree and related this to Kent ,its like herding cats ,  I have read comments that were based on false assumptions or the misinterpretations of what was originally proposed and I felt compelled correct them,can't keep doing it. For this to work ,it would need to be lead by someone well organized, it would have to be kept simple and limited in scope. I have said that ,it may be a case of a good idea whose time is yet to arrive. If underwriters continue to leave the market ,and coverage continues to shrink and continue to get more expensive ,its time may arrive . 
But I don't think it is now, I did not make the original post on this subject , but I have proposed some plans for it, and believe it has merit,  if an Amel Risk co-op ever evolves , count me in. But for now ,I will now respond to further discussions on this site , as often a subject goes on and on , clogging the site without end. 
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Fri, May 22, 2020 6:15 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance

Not wanting to poop on this idea, I am in favor or the concept, but the proposed numbers just do not seem to work.
 
If I am to contribute 2% of the insured value of my boat, this amount is greater than what I am currently paying for my current company provided insurance (with minimal deductable and liability included).
 
Just my 2¢ but to think 200 owners would agree to this is IMO a bit of a pipe dream. Getting 10 people to agree on anything is difficult let alone 200.
 
Also, the idea of an assessment is frightening to me. Being at the mercy of others concerning my out of pocket expenses is very unappealing.
 
Perhaps the more reasonable approach is to join an association such as the OCC and utilize their recommendations and discounts pre-arranged for members at Top-Sail. I am not sure but, there might be other groups about the world. Or, form a group to obtain group-rate policies as someone else suggested we can favor one particular insurance company. However, the latter suggestion has already been pursued by Bill Rouse to no avail.
 
One last thought is licensing. Without valid verification, it might be impossible to stay in marinas etc. or for those that need it, a mortgage on the vessel.
 
Just my 2¢ worth.
 
Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I would like to see members of this group continue discussions as they find good options for their Amels.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
www.creampuff.us
 
 
From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "karkauai via groups.io" <karkauai@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 17 May 2020 at 3:22 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance
 
Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243

Mark Erdos
 

Not wanting to poop on this idea, I am in favor or the concept, but the proposed numbers just do not seem to work.

 

If I am to contribute 2% of the insured value of my boat, this amount is greater than what I am currently paying for my current company provided insurance (with minimal deductable and liability included).

 

Just my 2¢ but to think 200 owners would agree to this is IMO a bit of a pipe dream. Getting 10 people to agree on anything is difficult let alone 200.

 

Also, the idea of an assessment is frightening to me. Being at the mercy of others concerning my out of pocket expenses is very unappealing.

 

Perhaps the more reasonable approach is to join an association such as the OCC and utilize their recommendations and discounts pre-arranged for members at Top-Sail. I am not sure but, there might be other groups about the world. Or, form a group to obtain group-rate policies as someone else suggested we can favor one particular insurance company. However, the latter suggestion has already been pursued by Bill Rouse to no avail.

 

One last thought is licensing. Without valid verification, it might be impossible to stay in marinas etc. or for those that need it, a mortgage on the vessel.

 

Just my 2¢ worth.

 

Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I would like to see members of this group continue discussions as they find good options for their Amels.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "karkauai via groups.io" <karkauai@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 17 May 2020 at 3:22 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance

 

Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243

David Vogel
 

Owners of SM#396, svPerigee, Australian registered, are interested in potential aspects of self-insurance within a group of AMEL owners. 

 

Currently insured with: Pantaenius Australia, expiry Oct’20; FORM: comprehensive (all risks); Amount insured: ~AUD450k (~USD295k); Premium: ~AUD9k (~USD6k)

 

1.Owner: D&L Vogel

2. Hull Number: SM#396

3. Year boat built: 2003

4. How long owned by current owner: since Oct’16

5. Cruising experience

*Years sailing: 20+, on and off.

*Nautical Miles Sailed: ~10,000nm prior to ownership; since ownership ~16,000nm;

*Cruising ground in past: Australia QLD; Med; UK; US East Coast; Caribbean; Central Americas; South Pacific

*Future Sailing Plans: South Pacific, expect 3,000 to 5,000nm per annum

6. Last Out of Water Survey: Oct’16

7. Any Insurance Claims

*Year: no marine or aviation claims (non-current commercial pilot); Automobile, 2010;

*Circumstances: other car merged into me

*Amount of claim: ~CHF10k

*Amount recovered: unknown; I simply paid the insurance excess (deductible)

8. Are you interested in participating in a group insurance plan or a self-insured plan for members only? Potentially YES,
       this EoI is to contribute to establishing an understanding of the baseline level of interest.

 

 

Understanding, based on quick read-though of the discussions:

Concept: covered only against total constructive loss @ 10% deductable; named tropical storm (subject to date/geographic limitations, and other caveats to minimise exposure) @ [30]% deductible; or lightning damage @ [30]% deductable (higher deductibles to 60% or even 80% for those making claims in known high-risk areas, such as Florida – basically, self-insuring against such risk in those known high-risk areas).

Annual premiums: [5] years buy-in “deposit” @ ~2.0% (~USD6k pa); thereafter annual top-up to cover annual losses due to claims plus annual contribution to cover operating/admin costs in order of 0.2% (USD600-pa).  New members do the same.  Co-insurance with underwriter to cover losses greater than [3] total-loss-claims in any given year.  Notional buy-out is 50% of deposits paid, with an final adjustment paid after a further 5 years’ fund operation –  that is, cash-value, not allowing for gains, such as interest received (and no refund of annual top-ups).  Adjustment of annual premiums / calls etc conducted like a real-estate body corporate (administering shared common property) with a “sinking fund” (making provision for known future potential expenses/risks, only some of which may, or may not, come to be realised).

 

Proposal: Insured value is range-based on a value determined by AMEL owners’ cooperative – with provisions for / based on existing known (blue-book) depreciation schedules, with variation for various states of upgrades / maintenance etc. – that is, could not insure a well-maintained and operated year 2000 SM for, say, USD500k; only within a range of, say, USD[250]k to USD[275]k, diminishing at, say, [3-5]% in dollar terms for exceptionally well-maintained (all to better than OEM spec); [5-8]% for well-maintained (all to spec); [8-12]% for maintained ‘mostly to spec’; [>12]% for maintained less than spec … or whatever – has to be simple to do (for an owner to both do and to prove), and to externally assess.

 

Concept expansion: built assets to cover worst reasonably foreseeable losses for [5] years running; say, [5] hulls per year, for [5] years, = 25 hulls at weighted-average of USD350k @ 90% payout figure =~USD8.0m to fund the insurance fund.  Basically, need to rapidly build to 250 hulls, each contributing 2% for 5 years, with no losses in the first 5 years (or with underwriting to cover any losses in the first 5 years).  Consider that.

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "karkauai via groups.io" <karkauai@...>
Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Sunday, 17 May 2020 at 3:22 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Insurance

 

Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Kent,

I think we would quickly find out why insurance companies are trying to get out of the game.

As to self insurance, ie carrying the risk myself. I don't, but if I took my premiums over 12 years collectively they would have over-subsrcibed my claims noticeably, even if a 50K lightning one was included. On shore in NZ is reasonable. Go off shore and up goes the premium

Kind Regards

Danny

On 18 May 2020 at 13:22 "karkauai via groups.io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243

karkauai
 

Hi All,
Given the insurance problems everyone is having, I thought I'd see if there is enough interest and/or expertise to pursue an AYOG self-insurance program.
Pat (Shenanigans) and I have talked about it a little. Here's the gist of what we discussed:

1. A buy-in of some percentage of your boat's  value that would be enough to cover the first year.  For example, a $300,000 SM owner might pay 2% or $6,000. If we had 200 similar owners, we'd have $1,200,000 to pay out.

2. It would' be a high deductible coverage  designed primarily to pay for total loss. Maybe something like 20% of the boat's value.

3. The most common claim would probably be lightening damage, which often amounts to $50,000 or more.  Our plan might pay for half of a major claim like that?

4. Boat's would have to be out of the hurricane zones during the season.  Any other restrictions?

5. Yearly Assessments could replenish what was paid out  Or we could continue to pay in until the principle was self-sustaining. That would require investing the funds and a whole added layer of complexity.

6. A rotating Board of unpaid members would oversee the plan (maybe a LLC?), and an administrator would be hired to do the paperwork.

7. Owners would purchase their own liability insurance.

This is all just a very rough framework that can be built on, scrapped and something else adopted, or what ever seems appropriate.  Any and all thoughts and suggestions are encouraged. I'm hoping we might have an owner or two that have some insurance or legal expertise to help us understand the potential pitfalls and options available.

Thanks for your ideas.
Kent
Kristy
S M 243