Date
1 - 20 of 58
Self Insurance
|
Patrick McAneny
This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.
1. A LLC. formed
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims.
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds.
a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM 123
Shenanigans |
|
|
|
Hi Pat & Kent,
Since we might be able to make the point of: A) AMEL boats; B) AMEL owners - and therefore a lower risk (????) - combined with thoughts/approach similar to your concept below it might make sense to research a synthetic form by approaching an insurance company for a joint?
F.e: no USA insurance company is willing to write/cover my ASTON MARTIN but HAGERTY in MI specializes in this and insured at a lower premium than my the main USA insurers carry my BMW/AUDI.
Best Regards Teun SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA May 18, 2020 09:38:21
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842 AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 05:56 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.
1. A LLC. formed
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims.
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds. a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
Stay Safe, Pat SM 123
|
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Teun, I have often thought if we as sizable sub group of Amel owners approached an Insurance Co. with a group buy ,if it would be possible to obtain better coverage at a better price. The same way groups obtain group medical insurance at a better rate than individuals.
Just a thought,
Pat
SM#123 -----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> Sent: Mon, May 18, 2020 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Hi Pat & Kent,
Since we might be able to make the point of: A) AMEL boats; B) AMEL owners - and therefore a lower risk (????) - combined with thoughts/approach similar to your
concept below it might make sense to research a synthetic form by approaching an insurance company for a joint?
F.e: no USA insurance company is willing to write/cover my ASTON MARTIN but HAGERTY in MI specializes in this and insured
at a lower premium than my the main USA insurers carry my BMW/AUDI.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2020
09:38:21
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 05:56 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested
self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When
you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.
1. A LLC. formed
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles
as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of
loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims.
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds.
a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners
or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM 123
Shenanigans |
|
|
|
Pat,
Agree; understand Bill ROUSE tried this over the last 2 years w/o success. But if we come up with a concept that as a group we would share part of the risk it might be different. It is now not so much anymore a matter of premium costs but it is becoming a matter of being able to get a quote at all on reasonable conditions.
Luckily I was able to get AMELIT insured for this coming year but the writing is on the wall. I hope there is a member of the AYOG who has some experience in this. I would think this should be of interest to LLOYDS. My companies used to have a COMMERCIAL LLOYDS OPEN MARINE POLICY where we would declare at the END of each month what cargo we had on the high seas to be insured during that previous month; was all based on integrity (and the risk of an annual audit hahahahahaha).
First step might be to get an idea how many people would be interested in concept (synthetic or not) to get a feeling on the size of the pool.
Best Regards Teun SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA May 18, 2020 10:49:12
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842 AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:18 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
Teun, I have often thought if we as sizable sub group of Amel owners approached an Insurance Co. with a group buy ,if it would be possible to obtain better coverage at a better price. The same way groups obtain group medical insurance at a better rate than individuals. Just a thought, Pat SM#123 -----Original Message----- Hi Pat & Kent,
Since we might be able to make the point of: A) AMEL boats; B) AMEL owners - and therefore a lower risk (????) - combined with thoughts/approach similar to your concept below it might make sense to research a synthetic form by approaching an insurance company for a joint?
F.e: no USA insurance company is willing to write/cover my ASTON MARTIN but HAGERTY in MI specializes in this and insured at a lower premium than my the main USA insurers carry my BMW/AUDI.
Best Regards Teun SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA May 18, 2020 09:38:21
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842 AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.
1. A LLC. formed
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims.
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds. a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
Stay Safe, Pat SM 123
|
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Teun, This idea came about after Bill & I spoke about insurance and he suggested self insuring.Which in the event of a total loss , would be too big of a hit for me. That got me thinking ,if a small group,but bigger the better , would spread the risk ,than the individual loss would be small.Then this weekend I was talking (emailing ) Kent about something else, then I threw this idea at him and he thought it had merit, and would put it out to the group. I followed up by posting what I sent Kent ,that hit on a few other points.
I guess Kent did put it out there to determine interest . I assume what Bill did was to organize a group insurance buy. I did not know that. One problem is that this risk co-op would need a paid administrator ,someone well organized ,to make it work. One person comes to mine, and it is not me,a more disorganized man ,you will never find.
Be Safe,
Pat
SM#123 -----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> Sent: Mon, May 18, 2020 1:49 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Pat,
Agree; understand Bill ROUSE tried this over the last 2 years w/o success. But if we come up with a concept that as a group we would share part of the risk it might
be different. It is now not so much anymore a matter of premium costs but it is becoming a matter of being able to get a
quote at all on reasonable conditions.
Luckily I was able to get AMELIT insured for this coming year but the writing is on the wall. I hope there is a member of the AYOG who has some experience in this.
I would think this should be of interest to LLOYDS. My companies used to have a COMMERCIAL LLOYDS OPEN MARINE POLICY where we would declare at the
END of each month what cargo we had on the high seas to be insured during that previous
month; was all based on integrity (and the risk of an annual audit hahahahahaha).
First step might be to get an idea how many people would be interested in concept (synthetic or not) to get a feeling on
the size of the pool.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2020
10:49:12
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:18 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Teun, I have often thought if we as sizable sub group of Amel owners approached an Insurance Co. with a group buy ,if it would be possible to obtain better coverage
at a better price. The same way groups obtain group medical insurance at a better rate than individuals.
Just a thought,
Pat
SM#123
-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> Sent: Mon, May 18, 2020 12:41 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Hi Pat & Kent,
Since we might be able to make the point of: A) AMEL boats; B) AMEL owners - and therefore a lower risk (????) - combined with thoughts/approach similar to your
concept below it might make sense to research a synthetic form by approaching an insurance company for a joint?
F.e: no USA insurance company is willing to write/cover my ASTON MARTIN but HAGERTY in MI specializes in this and insured
at a lower premium than my the main USA insurers carry my BMW/AUDI.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
In storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2020 09:38:21
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 05:56 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have
had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk
with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.
1. A LLC. formed
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles
as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of
loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims.
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds.
a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners
or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM 123
Shenanigans |
|
|
|
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Pat, I like that idea better. More workable I think. Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl On 19 May 2020 at 05:18 "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote: |
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Danny, I was thinking (dangerous) we Amel owners, are probably paying for the sins of others. We are lumped in with other owners that for the most part have inferior boats and less experience. I see many out there that do not even know how to anchor, last winter one drug anchor in Guadeloupe and did $28,000.00 damage to my boat. So many owners out there are making bad decisions leading to losses that we all pay for. Amels are very safe boats ,with knowledgeable owners and it would be nice if that was reflected in the coverage/premiums.
Be Safe,
Pat
SM#123 -----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Sent: Mon, May 18, 2020 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Hi Pat, I like that idea better. More workable I think.
Danny
SM 299 Ocean Pearl
On 19 May 2020 at 05:18 "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote: |
|
|
|
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Bill Rouse, your thoughts Danny On 19 May 2020 at 07:21 "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote: |
|
|
|
Brent, Thank you for that great offer. It would be a great way to determine interest AND to find out claim information for the last decade or two. It could also be presented to insurance companies if we ask about group coverage. Initially, poll questions might include: 1.Owner 2. Hull Number 3. Year boat built 4. How long owned by current owner 5. Cruising experience *Years sailing *Nautical Miles Sailed *Cruising ground in past *Future Sailing Plans 6. Last Out of Water Survey 7. Any Insurance Claims *Year *Circumstances *Amount of claim *Amount recovered 8. Are you interested in participating in a group insurance plan or a self-insured plan for members only? Anything else we should ask? Even if some owners are not interested, please complete the poll. Your personal information would not be revealed if that was requested. Thanks again, Brent. Contact me personally while we design the poll. I don't do Facebook, anyone like to volunteer to steer those folks to this poll? Kent SM 243 Kristy On May 18, 2020 8:56 AM, "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote: This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense. Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose. |
|
|
|
I like the idea of a pooled self-insurance program. There are any number of ways to go about it. We could self-administer or find an individual or company that specializes in setting up these programs. They exist out there. Two early questions come to mind, among many more to follow. 1. Some of us are buying insurance to allow cruising in a certain locale, such as the Mediterranean or Caribbean. Others are purchasing policies to allow circumnavigations or in riskier areas such as the Arabian Sea. The point being that we are homogeneous on some aspects (very seaworthy vessels and generally solid cruising experience), but not so homogeneous on others (home ports in hurricane zones vs. the Great Lakes, for example). The actuary has to assess the various risks and price individual policies accordingly. If done properly we should still see significant savings over a for-profit insurer. 2. Even within the Amel owners we may wish to pre-qualify applicants to a group insurance program. (And I say this as a new owner who just purchased an SM2000 as his first cruising boat of any size. I might not qualify myself! ). Regardless, you are by definition a limited number of participants, so there should probably be some basic qualifications required if you wish to attract a solid re-insurer such as Lloyd's of London. My two cents worth....
-- Dave Kurtz SM2 #380 S/V Celtic Cross Detroit, Michigan |
|
|
|
Hi together!
We are interesting in an insurance too. Worldwide sailing Homeport: Lüneburg/ Germany Now we are insured by Allianz ESA But there’s any coverage for tropical storms or huricanes from the Equator to the North Pole and 50 east to 100 west in the time from July 1th to November 30th. All the best from Martinique Stefan and Anne OYA, SM 373 |
|
|
|
Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...>
Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month. Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second. Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it. Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!
On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims? People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air. Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water. I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC. The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group. All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company. Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore. What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured. Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member? No one person should. There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture. For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course. Just like a check ride by the FAA. To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village. If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year. First get interest level. 200 boats would probably be a good start. Draft a Document how the company would operate. 1. Investments 2. Personal requirements to be insured 3. What/Where will the insurance cover 4. How/who will manage the claims 5. Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group. 6. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles. 7. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law. So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions. If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step. HERE IS MINE 1. Current Insurance Company: JACKLINE POLICY 2. Cost yearly: $5700 3. Coverage amount: $280K 4. Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones 5. 3rd party Liability: $1M 6. Solo Sailor: ? 7. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles. 8. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law. 9. ?? Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders? Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass. Even I may not meet the standards of some. Done rambling.... Ken Powers Aquarius SM2K #262 Currently in Phuket Thailand |
|
|
|
Ken Powers mentions the Jackline Policy he has. That product was started by Al Golden and his son Gary at their (at the time) brokerage company called IMIS, now bought out by Gowrie. Al's retired and his son Gary, as some posts in this thread note, is now on his own and expanding his offerings of cruiser's coverage. The Golden's have always been staunch supporters of the Seven Seas Cruising Association - SSCA and marketed to that group as an excellent base of customers who were cruising savvy which gave the underwriters (Markel) a desirable low-risk group to insure - quite similar to what Amel owners could do.
Interestingly, back in the 90's another broker offered a substantial discount to sailors who were members of SSCA. Lo and behold, the membership rolls of the organization zoomed from about 2000 boats to 5000 by the late 90's as membership was never contingent on sailing experience (anyone could join SSCA as an associate and get the discount, then could become a voting "commodore" after demonstrating live-aboard and passagemaking experience). That diluted the insurance underwriting appeal and the product was dropped after a few years (there was also some other drama going on with the broker). I'd recommend a chat with Gary which could be very instructive at least, or even present him with an opportunity he could pursue as a professional in the business to offer an AGIC policy. Food for thought. Craig |
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Dave ,Ken,
A lot of good points,but I think if we have too many restrictions,it would become too complicated. It would take someone's time and ability to assess a owners qualifications to join into the group .I am afraid if we make this too complicated ,it won't get off the ground. I also don't think the very fact that you have had a claim in the past ,indicates that you are a higher risk . I too have never had a car accident claim nor even a health ,or home insurance claim. I have not had a ticket in 30 yrs. Yet my boat electronics was damaged by a nearby lightning strike while on my mooring in front of our house . Lightning is random, can hit any boat, and has no bearing on my seamanship. I had another claim, while anchored in Guadeloupe , three charter cats anchored about 75 yards in front of me . Overnight at 4 am with 30 kt. gusts a 47 ft. cat from Dream Yacht Charters drug anchor and hit us , we were asleep . We ourselves were so well anchored that we held boat boats for almost an hour before they broke our anchor out. My insurance Pantaenius told me to make a claim with them and they would seek reimbursement from DYCharter. So I have had two claims ,and may not qualify for membership ,but I submit that I bear no responsibility for these claim and that they do not reflect on my 50 plus years of operating boats.
We actually are a low risk ,as we live in Maryland on the Sassafras River ,a hurricane hole and only cruise every other year ,then for just six months. I know we would be sharing risk with full time cruisers ,cruising in unfamiliar waters and at higher risks. But I would be willing to accept their risk as I think the number of Amels that are a total lose is quit low and the risk would be shared by many.
I would like to know how many boats have been a total lose outside of hurricane zones ,say in the last ten years. If it was say five @ $250,000. ,if that lose was shared by 200 members ,that would amount to $6,250. per member over ten years, or $625.00 per year. If your initial one time deposit was a percentage of your declared boat value ,say 2.5% ,coupled with a deductible say 10% based on the fixed value ,that would balance the relative difference in boat values.
Once the group had a sizable reserve to cover a loss or two ,in the event of a loss perhaps an assessment would be made on each member to replenish the fund . I think that an owner assuming no claims would receive a 50% refund of his initial deposit ,make this attractive,after all it is about sharing the risk ,while saving money. I think if we keep it simple and find someone to administer it,and assuming there was enough members wishing to join ,this could work to everyone's benefit.
One would still need to obtain liability insurance. One could also obtain full coverage as now, and have a much lower fixed value ,which should lower the premiums. I am trying too obtain insurance now ,and insurance has been hard to find,with many exemptions and very high premiums. I think its going to get worst as there are fewer underwriters in the offshore business.
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM Shenanigans
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 3:34 am Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month. Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second. Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it. Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!
On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims? People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air. Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water. I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC. The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group. All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company. Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore. What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured. Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member? No one person should. There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture. For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course. Just like a check ride by the FAA. To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village. If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year. First get interest level. 200 boats would probably be a good start. Draft a Document how the company would operate. 1. Investments 2. Personal requirements to be insured 3. What/Where will the insurance cover 4. How/who will manage the claims 5. Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group. 6. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles. 7. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law. So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions. If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step. HERE IS MINE 1. Current Insurance Company: JACKLINE POLICY 2. Cost yearly: $5700 3. Coverage amount: $280K 4. Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones 5. 3rd party Liability: $1M 6. Solo Sailor: ? 7. Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance. Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles. 8. Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas. Just moving with traffic. Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law. 9. ?? Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders? Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass. Even I may not meet the standards of some. Done rambling.... Ken Powers Aquarius SM2K #262 Currently in Phuket Thailand |
|
|
|
Robert Giroux <rg@...>
Unfortunately, the more you dig into something like this, the less obvious are all the ramifications. Experience, beyond total novice is of limited value in assessing risk; age, accident history, net worth, are far more important. There are very experienced sailors who willingly sail into ANY weather and some who leave their boats at a dock in the path of a hurricane when they could have sailed to safety. Most captive insurance plans are created by companies for their own purposes, managed by their own management structure. As much as I like the idea behind it, It's hard to imaging something like this as a co-op, run democratically.
Robert Giroux Future Amel Owner |
|
|
|
Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...>
Pat,
Your right! I just thought my questions help paint the picture of risk. I am optimistic that your idea could work, and still interested. Ken SM2K #262 Aquarius in Thailand |
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Ken, We have been following you guys since you were in the Caribbean ,living vicariously unfortunately. I will be sailing my couch this winter ,if I can't find suitable coverage.Its all about risk and spreading it out ,so as not to take a big hit,if the worst should ever happen,as unlikely as it is.
Stay Safe,
Pat & Diane,
SM Shenanigans -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Pat,
Your right! I just thought my questions help paint the picture of risk. I am optimistic that your idea could work, and still interested. Ken SM2K #262 Aquarius in Thailand |
|
|
|
Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
He thinks things will get worse before they get better.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
|
|
|
|
Patrick McAneny
Mark, I think your friends assessment is right on. I am fielding quotes ,two just today. They are full of restrictions , exclusions and wording that left me wondering if ever needed, would I have coverage at all. Not to mention the premiums more than twice what I was paying with Pantaenius, with deductibles 5 times as much. This is what prompted me to think ,it may be time to think about self insuring .
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM #123
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and
brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
I
can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational
marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will
soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability,
especially for two people cruising long distances.
Hopefully
the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
He thinks
things will get worse before they get better.
With best
regards,
Mark
Skipper
Sailing Vessel
- Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently
cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
www.creampuff.us
|
|
|
|
Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.
On Pat and Ken’s Emails:
So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience. Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.
January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.
That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative ☹.
So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.
Best Regards Teun SV AMELIT A54 #128
In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA May 19, 2020 13:03:09
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842 AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08 To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
He thinks things will get worse before they get better.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
|
|
|