Topics

Self Insurance

Jason Dernehl
 

I also stress around this time every year about my insurance. I wonder how much the premium will increase and if it will be renewed. Very interested in this idea.

Jason Dernehl
SM 88, Pao San. 

Currently in Yarmouth, ME.

Courtney Gorman
 

My Novimar policy was not renewed this year same agent
Cheers 
Courtney 
Trippin
54 #101


On May 25, 2020, at 1:04 PM, VLADIMIR SONSEV <sonsev52@...> wrote:


I am interested in group insurance but not in self insurance.

Vladimir
SM 345 "Life is Good""

On Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:56 AM Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense.  Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.

1. A  LLC. formed
 
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
 
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
 
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
 
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
 
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
 
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims. 
 
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
 
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds.
a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
 
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
 
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
 
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM 123
Shenanigans
 
 

VLADIMIR SONSEV
 

I am interested in group insurance but not in self insurance.

Vladimir
SM 345 "Life is Good""


On Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:56 AM Patrick McAneny via groups.io <sailw32=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is a rough outline of a self insurance or shared risk co-op, that I sent Kent and thought I would share with the group. It was prompted by the hassle I have had with obtaining insurance, the restrictions and expense.  Bill suggested self insuring and just buying liability insurance, however in the event of a total loss, it would be a big financial hit, that I could not afford. However, if I could share that risk with even ten others or better yet many more, it would soften the loss. When you consider how few Amel's have been lost outside of a hurricane zone, the risk seems very low, and yet we need to insure against such a great financial lose.

1. A  LLC. formed
 
2. An administrator and board to accept membership ,assess deposit amount , administer funds and assess claims.
 
3. A one time deposit could be a percentage of agreed fixed value, perhaps 2 or 2.5% ,eg. $200,000 boat would amount to a $5000 deposit into the fund
 
4. Coverage would be for total loss , fixed value minus say 10% deductible. Figuring most owners could absorb some loss ,and insurance companies have deductibles as well. Hurricane zones excluded.
 
5. Perhaps lightning strike coverage , perhaps coverage would be ,replace with new equipment ,minus a 30 % deductible.This would probably be the largest source of loss. May have a surcharge or higher deductible for Florida locations.
 
6. All funds would be in an interest bearing account,if you can find anyone paying interest.
 
7. Upon leaving the group , the owner would receive a 50% refund of his deposit assuming they had no claims. 
 
8. Perhaps a .20% of fixed value annual fee to go to cost of administration .eg. $3000,000. boat x.20% = $600. annual fee
 
Assuming 200 owners/members at average boat value of $300,000 x 2.5 % = $7,500 deposit or $1,500,000.00 in funds.
a $300,000. loss of a boat would break down to a loss of $1,350. for each of the 200 members.
 
This could even work on a smaller scale . If ten owners shared responsibility for loss. $300,000 minus deductible of 10% ,would be $ 270,000.000 divided by ten owners or $27,000 per owner. Its all about spreading the risk.
 
I wonder why no group has formed a risk co-op as yet. Maybe because insurance used to be less restrictive and more reasonably priced .
 
Stay Safe,
Pat
SM 123
Shenanigans
 
 

Porter McRoberts
 

Could not agree more Mark. 
I gave him Bill Rouses number to discuss. Not sure if they called. Seemed like a reasonable approach. 
I’m not the best one to lead this charge, but interested as I’m sure most are in any outcome. 

Porter A54-152


On May 24, 2020, at 2:43 PM, Mark Erdos <mcerdos@...> wrote:



On a side note, if others are tired of this thread, there is a great feature in this group where topics can be muted. There is a link at the bottom of each email received.

 

 

Hi Porter,

 

I looked at Novamar when renewing our policy a couple of year ago. They made their entrance into the market by selling mostly west coast sailors policies for Mexico. The agent I use and trusts talked very highly of them. He has written tons of Novamar policies. On other forums they are well recommended. We opted not to use them since their underwriter was wary of Pacific Ocean policies and required a crew of three on passages over 1,000 nm (prior approval required). In addition at the time I looked into them they required a full out-of-water survey less than a year old. This added a substantial amount to the cost of a policy change. Otherwise, their insurance rates were reasonable.

 

My 2 cents – if we are to pursue a group policy, there needs to be a period of enrollment were some rules are waived to encourage sign-up and minimize the cost of change. Also, an understanding Amel owners regularly sail passages over 1,000 nm without the need of crew.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 1:51 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

All. 

I spoke to My insurance agent Rob at Novamar. 

Some of you might know and use them. Specifically they were open to administering the program. They are reinsurers and have been quite capable and responsive in my limited interactions. Additionally they are sailors. Not sure if this would be a way to go. 

 

I am of course interested as well. I think if we’ll done we’d have tremendous interest. 

 

 

Porter A54-152 ibis. 

 

Excuse the errors.  

Sent from my IPhone 

Www.fouribis.net



On May 23, 2020, at 10:38 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi all,
Because we have had very few responses, we think that the uncertainty and amateurish sound of the initial posts has made people leery, and rightfully so.  Teun (Amelit A54) and Ken (Aquarious SM 2K) have some insurance knowledge and contacts they think might be able to help us out together a workable hybrid plan.  We are taking this discussion private until we have something more concrete to present. If anyone else wants to be in the loop as we discuss options, please let me know by private email.
Kent
SM243
Kristy

Mark Erdos
 

On a side note, if others are tired of this thread, there is a great feature in this group where topics can be muted. There is a link at the bottom of each email received.

 

 

Hi Porter,

 

I looked at Novamar when renewing our policy a couple of year ago. They made their entrance into the market by selling mostly west coast sailors policies for Mexico. The agent I use and trusts talked very highly of them. He has written tons of Novamar policies. On other forums they are well recommended. We opted not to use them since their underwriter was wary of Pacific Ocean policies and required a crew of three on passages over 1,000 nm (prior approval required). In addition at the time I looked into them they required a full out-of-water survey less than a year old. This added a substantial amount to the cost of a policy change. Otherwise, their insurance rates were reasonable.

 

My 2 cents – if we are to pursue a group policy, there needs to be a period of enrollment were some rules are waived to encourage sign-up and minimize the cost of change. Also, an understanding Amel owners regularly sail passages over 1,000 nm without the need of crew.

 

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 1:51 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

All. 

I spoke to My insurance agent Rob at Novamar. 

Some of you might know and use them. Specifically they were open to administering the program. They are reinsurers and have been quite capable and responsive in my limited interactions. Additionally they are sailors. Not sure if this would be a way to go. 

 

I am of course interested as well. I think if we’ll done we’d have tremendous interest. 

 

 

Porter A54-152 ibis. 

 

Excuse the errors.  

Sent from my IPhone 

Www.fouribis.net



On May 23, 2020, at 10:38 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi all,
Because we have had very few responses, we think that the uncertainty and amateurish sound of the initial posts has made people leery, and rightfully so.  Teun (Amelit A54) and Ken (Aquarious SM 2K) have some insurance knowledge and contacts they think might be able to help us out together a workable hybrid plan.  We are taking this discussion private until we have something more concrete to present. If anyone else wants to be in the loop as we discuss options, please let me know by private email.
Kent
SM243
Kristy

Porter McRoberts
 

All. 
I spoke to My insurance agent Rob at Novamar. 
Some of you might know and use them. Specifically they were open to administering the program. They are reinsurers and have been quite capable and responsive in my limited interactions. Additionally they are sailors. Not sure if this would be a way to go. 

I am of course interested as well. I think if we’ll done we’d have tremendous interest. 


Porter A54-152 ibis. 

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 
Www.fouribis.net

On May 23, 2020, at 10:38 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi all,
Because we have had very few responses, we think that the uncertainty and amateurish sound of the initial posts has made people leery, and rightfully so.  Teun (Amelit A54) and Ken (Aquarious SM 2K) have some insurance knowledge and contacts they think might be able to help us out together a workable hybrid plan.  We are taking this discussion private until we have something more concrete to present. If anyone else wants to be in the loop as we discuss options, please let me know by private email.
Kent
SM243
Kristy

karkauai
 

Hi all,
Because we have had very few responses, we think that the uncertainty and amateurish sound of the initial posts has made people leery, and rightfully so.  Teun (Amelit A54) and Ken (Aquarious SM 2K) have some insurance knowledge and contacts they think might be able to help us out together a workable hybrid plan.  We are taking this discussion private until we have something more concrete to present. If anyone else wants to be in the loop as we discuss options, please let me know by private email.
Kent
SM243
Kristy

Courtney Gorman
 

I would be interested in either for next year as I have already gotten and paid for my policy this year
thanks
Courtney
Trippin
54 #101


-----Original Message-----
From: karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 20, 2020 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and doubts.

Bill R has been in touch with Gary Golden at Manifest Marine. He is looking into a group policy, but at least initially doesn't think it would be enough of a market to interest commercial carriers.

Sooo, while it's not a foregone conclusion, we may have to go the self-insurance route.
That would be an experiment unless we can find someone with expertise to help us set it up.  We may find ourselves with few or no options sooner rather than later so I think it's worth pursuing if there is enough interest.

Please respond to this thread and indicate if you are seriously interested in participating in
 1)A commercial group Policy, and
 2)An AYOG self-insured plan

If there are at least 200 owners interested, I will continue to work on it.  If there is enough interest, we will take this private and ask you to complete a survey that Brent is working on.

Thanks for your prompt replies.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

On May 19, 2020 3:34 AM, Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:
Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month.  Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second.  Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it.  Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!  

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims?  People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air.  Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.   

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC.  The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group.  All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company.  Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore.  What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured.  Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member?  No one person should.  

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture.  For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course.  Just like a check ride by the FAA.  

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village.  If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level.  200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
  1.  Investments
  2.  Personal requirements to be insured
  3.  What/Where will the insurance cover
  4.  How/who will manage the claims
  5.  Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
  6.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
  7.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.



So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions.  If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1.  Current Insurance Company:  JACKLINE POLICY
2.  Cost yearly: $5700
3.  Coverage amount: $280K
4.  Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones
5.  3rd party Liability: $1M
6.  Solo Sailor: ?
7.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
8.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.
9.  ??  Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders?  Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass.  Even I may not meet the standards of some.  
 
Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand



Patrick McAneny
 

Kent , Of course I would be interested either way. Just got off the phone with Gary Golden to discuss a policy he sent me. He said that liability alone is available , although because its fairly cheap some companies don't want to bother with it ,being several hundred ,opposed to several thousand. 
Thanks,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 20, 2020 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and doubts.

Bill R has been in touch with Gary Golden at Manifest Marine. He is looking into a group policy, but at least initially doesn't think it would be enough of a market to interest commercial carriers.

Sooo, while it's not a foregone conclusion, we may have to go the self-insurance route.
That would be an experiment unless we can find someone with expertise to help us set it up.  We may find ourselves with few or no options sooner rather than later so I think it's worth pursuing if there is enough interest.

Please respond to this thread and indicate if you are seriously interested in participating in
 1)A commercial group Policy, and
 2)An AYOG self-insured plan

If there are at least 200 owners interested, I will continue to work on it.  If there is enough interest, we will take this private and ask you to complete a survey that Brent is working on.

Thanks for your prompt replies.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

On May 19, 2020 3:34 AM, Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:
Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month.  Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second.  Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it.  Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!  

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims?  People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air.  Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.   

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC.  The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group.  All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company.  Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore.  What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured.  Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member?  No one person should.  

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture.  For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course.  Just like a check ride by the FAA.  

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village.  If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level.  200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
  1.  Investments
  2.  Personal requirements to be insured
  3.  What/Where will the insurance cover
  4.  How/who will manage the claims
  5.  Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
  6.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
  7.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.



So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions.  If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1.  Current Insurance Company:  JACKLINE POLICY
2.  Cost yearly: $5700
3.  Coverage amount: $280K
4.  Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones
5.  3rd party Liability: $1M
6.  Solo Sailor: ?
7.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
8.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.
9.  ??  Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders?  Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass.  Even I may not meet the standards of some.  
 
Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand



Ryan Meador
 

We're potentially interested in a group buy of a normal insurance policy.  It will depend on the rate/coverage vs what we can find through our insurance broker (so far they've found one, but it's expensive).  Our policy expires at the end of July.

We might be interested in self insurance, depending on exactly how it works.  Insurance is a highly regulated industry, and I think it's going to be difficult for a bunch of laypeople like us to successfully form an insurance company, doubly so on a tight timeline.  Even if we succeed, I'm not sure the policy would be acceptable to the bank that owns our mortgage.  But this project is something I've been thinking about for a long time, so if it is feasible, I'd be interested in being part of it.

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 11:02 AM karkauai via groups.io <karkauai=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and doubts.

Bill R has been in touch with Gary Golden at Manifest Marine. He is looking into a group policy, but at least initially doesn't think it would be enough of a market to interest commercial carriers.

Sooo, while it's not a foregone conclusion, we may have to go the self-insurance route.
That would be an experiment unless we can find someone with expertise to help us set it up.  We may find ourselves with few or no options sooner rather than later so I think it's worth pursuing if there is enough interest.

Please respond to this thread and indicate if you are seriously interested in participating in
 1)A commercial group Policy, and
 2)An AYOG self-insured plan

If there are at least 200 owners interested, I will continue to work on it.  If there is enough interest, we will take this private and ask you to complete a survey that Brent is working on.

Thanks for your prompt replies.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

On May 19, 2020 3:34 AM, Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:
Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month.  Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second.  Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it.  Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!  

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims?  People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air.  Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.   

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC.  The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group.  All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company.  Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore.  What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured.  Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member?  No one person should.  

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture.  For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course.  Just like a check ride by the FAA.  

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village.  If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level.  200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
  1.  Investments
  2.  Personal requirements to be insured
  3.  What/Where will the insurance cover
  4.  How/who will manage the claims
  5.  Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
  6.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
  7.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.



So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions.  If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1.  Current Insurance Company:  JACKLINE POLICY
2.  Cost yearly: $5700
3.  Coverage amount: $280K
4.  Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones
5.  3rd party Liability: $1M
6.  Solo Sailor: ?
7.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
8.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.
9.  ??  Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders?  Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass.  Even I may not meet the standards of some.  
 
Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand



karkauai
 

Thank you all for your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, and doubts.

Bill R has been in touch with Gary Golden at Manifest Marine. He is looking into a group policy, but at least initially doesn't think it would be enough of a market to interest commercial carriers.

Sooo, while it's not a foregone conclusion, we may have to go the self-insurance route.
That would be an experiment unless we can find someone with expertise to help us set it up.  We may find ourselves with few or no options sooner rather than later so I think it's worth pursuing if there is enough interest.

Please respond to this thread and indicate if you are seriously interested in participating in
 1)A commercial group Policy, and
 2)An AYOG self-insured plan

If there are at least 200 owners interested, I will continue to work on it.  If there is enough interest, we will take this private and ask you to complete a survey that Brent is working on.

Thanks for your prompt replies.
Kent
SM 243
Kristy

On May 19, 2020 3:34 AM, Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:
Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month.  Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second.  Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it.  Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!  

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims?  People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air.  Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.   

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC.  The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group.  All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company.  Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore.  What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured.  Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member?  No one person should.  

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture.  For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course.  Just like a check ride by the FAA.  

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village.  If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level.  200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
  1.  Investments
  2.  Personal requirements to be insured
  3.  What/Where will the insurance cover
  4.  How/who will manage the claims
  5.  Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
  6.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
  7.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.



So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions.  If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1.  Current Insurance Company:  JACKLINE POLICY
2.  Cost yearly: $5700
3.  Coverage amount: $280K
4.  Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones
5.  3rd party Liability: $1M
6.  Solo Sailor: ?
7.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
8.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.
9.  ??  Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders?  Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass.  Even I may not meet the standards of some.  
 
Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand



Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

This sounds a bit like a mini lloyds syndicate

On 20 May 2020 at 08:45 "Patrick McAneny via groups.io" <sailw32@...> wrote:

Teun,
To address your input in order.

1. I agree we  don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .

2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total  lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.

3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in  the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !

Be Safe,
Pat
SM Shenanigans






-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.
 
On Pat and Ken’s Emails:
 
  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.
 
  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.
 
  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.
 
 
So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.
Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.
 
January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.
 
That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .
 
So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊 .
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT   A54  #128
 
In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 19, 2020 13:03:09
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
 
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
 
Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
 
I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.
 
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
 
He thinks things will get worse before they get better.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
 
 
 
 

Teun BAAS
 

Pat,

 

Apologies: didn’t realize the objective was only cover for TOTAL LOSS and/or possibly lightning damage.

 

Will refrain from commenting as this is not something I am interested in.

 

Again: my apologies for muddying your waters. 😊

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 16:08:35

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 15:33
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Teun, I guess I initiated this in a post a couple of days ago ,where I laid out what I envisioned , I won't rehash all the points ,but to keep it simple ,the only coverage was for a total lose minus a 10% deductible and perhaps lightning damage with a 30% deductible. This was not meant to be an insurance policy in the normal sense. Just a group each putting in a one time deposit into a reserve fund to spread the risk in the event of a total lose. I can't afford to lose all my equity in my boat,but if I hit piling ,ding my boat ,I am willing to assume that risk,since I have never damaged any boat in fifty years. I would still need to obtain liability insurance , I could still obtain full coverage ,but at a very low fixed value ,thus as you suggested the premiums should be much less.

 This will probably be my last reply on this subject until Brent's survey determine the interest level .I guess he or Kent will post a link to the survey they have written.

 

Thanks,

Pat

SM#123

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Pat,

 

  1. Nothing to do with winning – we are all looking for a solution for a problem most owners do not realize is coming at them.
  2. Synthetic or derivative concept is being used in financial & commodity (futures) markets. FE: before there were ethanol futures one could work out a balance/ratio between oil and corn futures and minimize risks in ethanol trading by hedging oil & corn. So in my concept we would sit down with a carrier (fe LLOYDS) and discuss a spread of risks between Ken’s AGIC and LLOYDS. If the AGIC group is sizeable I am pretty sure they will be open to a dialogue. .
  3. Sorry I might not have gotten the concept that the self-insurance was for total loss only. That being the case: if indeed a carrier is not on the hook for any total loss that might mitigate premium and/or reluctance to provide regular marine cover. It is a form of “re-insurance”; one of the main assets in Warren BUFFETS portfolio.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 14:04:44

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 13:45
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Teun,

To address your input in order.

 

1. I agree we  don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .

 

2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total  lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.

 

3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in  the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !

 

Be Safe,

Pat

SM Shenanigans

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.

 

On Pat and Ken’s Emails:

 

  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.

 

  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.

 

  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.

 

 

So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.

Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.

 

January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.

 

That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .

 

So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:03:09

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

 

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

 

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

 

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

 

 

Patrick McAneny
 

Teun, I guess I initiated this in a post a couple of days ago ,where I laid out what I envisioned , I won't rehash all the points ,but to keep it simple ,the only coverage was for a total lose minus a 10% deductible and perhaps lightning damage with a 30% deductible. This was not meant to be an insurance policy in the normal sense. Just a group each putting in a one time deposit into a reserve fund to spread the risk in the event of a total lose. I can't afford to lose all my equity in my boat,but if I hit piling ,ding my boat ,I am willing to assume that risk,since I have never damaged any boat in fifty years. I would still need to obtain liability insurance , I could still obtain full coverage ,but at a very low fixed value ,thus as you suggested the premiums should be much less.
 This will probably be my last reply on this subject until Brent's survey determine the interest level .I guess he or Kent will post a link to the survey they have written.

Thanks,
Pat
SM#123


-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Pat,
 
  1. Nothing to do with winning – we are all looking for a solution for a problem most owners do not realize is coming at them.
  2. Synthetic or derivative concept is being used in financial & commodity (futures) markets. FE: before there were ethanol futures one could work out a balance/ratio between oil and corn futures and minimize risks in ethanol trading by hedging oil & corn. So in my concept we would sit down with a carrier (fe LLOYDS) and discuss a spread of risks between Ken’s AGIC and LLOYDS. If the AGIC group is sizeable I am pretty sure they will be open to a dialogue. .
  3. Sorry I might not have gotten the concept that the self-insurance was for total loss only. That being the case: if indeed a carrier is not on the hook for any total loss that might mitigate premium and/or reluctance to provide regular marine cover. It is a form of “re-insurance”; one of the main assets in Warren BUFFETS portfolio.
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT  A54  #128
 
In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 19, 2020 14:04:44
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 13:45
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
 
Teun,
To address your input in order.
 
1. I agree we  don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .
 
2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total  lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.
 
3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in  the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !
 
Be Safe,
Pat
SM Shenanigans
 
 
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <
teun@...>
To:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.
 
On Pat and Ken’s Emails:
 
  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.
 
  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.
 
  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.
 
 
So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.
Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.
 
January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.
 
That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .
 
So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT  A54  #128
 
In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 19, 2020 13:03:09
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
 
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
 
Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
 
I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.
 
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
 
He thinks things will get worse before they get better.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
 
 

Teun BAAS
 

Pat,

 

  1. Nothing to do with winning – we are all looking for a solution for a problem most owners do not realize is coming at them.
  2. Synthetic or derivative concept is being used in financial & commodity (futures) markets. FE: before there were ethanol futures one could work out a balance/ratio between oil and corn futures and minimize risks in ethanol trading by hedging oil & corn. So in my concept we would sit down with a carrier (fe LLOYDS) and discuss a spread of risks between Ken’s AGIC and LLOYDS. If the AGIC group is sizeable I am pretty sure they will be open to a dialogue. .
  3. Sorry I might not have gotten the concept that the self-insurance was for total loss only. That being the case: if indeed a carrier is not on the hook for any total loss that might mitigate premium and/or reluctance to provide regular marine cover. It is a form of “re-insurance”; one of the main assets in Warren BUFFETS portfolio.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 14:04:44

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 13:45
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Teun,

To address your input in order.

 

1. I agree we  don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .

 

2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total  lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.

 

3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in  the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !

 

Be Safe,

Pat

SM Shenanigans

 

 

 



-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <
teun@...>
To:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.

 

On Pat and Ken’s Emails:

 

  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.

 

  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.

 

  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.

 

 

So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.

Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.

 

January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.

 

That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .

 

So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:03:09

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

 

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

 

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

 

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

 

 

Patrick McAneny
 

Teun,
To address your input in order.

1. I agree we  don't want to get involved in managing this self insurance. That is why I said from the start, that there would need to be a paid administrator ,and I suggested an annual fee of perhaps .20% of boat value to cover expenses.Kent suggested a voluntary board to provide guidance .

2. 1.5 million in a reserve fund would seem adequate to cover three boats lost in a single year,which is very unlikely. The fund could be replenished by an assessment to all members to bring the fund back up to the prior balance. Keep in mind this is only meant to share the risk of a total lose ,not if you run into a piling and scratch your hull. So if a boat was a total  lose and the payout was $250,000. and assuming we had 200 members ,each member would pay into the fund $1,250, their share of the lose.

3. I don't even know what a synthetic structure is,so don't have much to say about that, I read that and just throw up my hands ,you win ! I do agree with you, that many may not realize the changes in the insurance industry until its time to renew their policy. I also agree that we need to determine the level of interest, and many with a policy in force at this time may not be,understandable. Brent has made up a survey ,very well done and it will be presented to the group to determine interest. It may be ahead of its time ,but I think its time will come. if we lack interest at this time ,we will put it on the back burner for now and revisit when things in  the industry get worse. We don't want to spin wheels and write emails for nothing, at least I don't,my two fingers get sore !

Be Safe,
Pat
SM Shenanigans






-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, May 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.
 
On Pat and Ken’s Emails:
 
  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.
 
  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.
 
  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.
 
 
So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.
Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.
 
January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.
 
That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .
 
So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT  A54  #128
 
In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 19, 2020 13:03:09
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
 
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance
 
Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:
 
I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.
 
Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.
 
He thinks things will get worse before they get better.
 
 
With best regards,
 
Mark
 
Skipper
Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275
Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia
 
 

Teun BAAS
 

Dealt with Elliott GOLDEN; nice guy. Came with similar proposal also from ERGO GERMANY but with a lower agreed value (USD530K).

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:36:02

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Salatino via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 13:14
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Gary Golden, Manifest Marine.

I’m a longtime customer and friend, who I met through the Moody Owners’ Association (previous boat)

He’s a good guy, and an advocate for his clients.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt


On May 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Ken Powers mentions the Jackline Policy he has. That product was started by Al Golden and his son Gary at their (at the time) brokerage company called IMIS, now bought out by Gowrie. Al's retired and his son Gary, as some posts in this thread note, is now on his own and expanding his offerings of cruiser's coverage. The Golden's have always been staunch supporters of the Seven Seas Cruising Association - SSCA and marketed to that group as an excellent base of customers who were cruising savvy which gave the underwriters (Markel) a desirable low-risk group to insure - quite similar to what Amel owners could do. 

Interestingly, back in the 90's another broker offered a substantial discount to sailors who were members of SSCA. Lo and behold, the membership rolls of the organization zoomed from about 2000 boats to 5000 by the late 90's as membership was never contingent on sailing experience (anyone could join SSCA as an associate and get the discount, then could become a voting "commodore" after demonstrating live-aboard and passagemaking experience). That diluted the insurance underwriting appeal and the product was dropped after a few years (there was also some other drama going on with the broker).

I'd recommend a chat with Gary which could be very instructive at least, or even present him with an opportunity he could pursue as a professional in the business to offer an AGIC policy.
Food for thought.

Craig

Teun BAAS
 

Below in blue next to Ken’s my current coverage; in red the last 2 years LLOYDS

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:07:00

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ken Powers SV Aquarius via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 00:35
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Though I think it would be a great idea to start the "Amel Group Insurance Company" AGIC, it's a lot more than just opening a bank account and filling it with our $6000 each month.  Insurance companies are Bankers first, and Offer insurance second.  Once you get the first $1.2M in the bank it has to be invested, and everyone will have different ideas of where to invest it.  Well hedged is probably best, but these days I have been a very unsuccessful investor!  

On the questionnaire - Ask about Auto, Motorcycle, Airplane Insurance - Any tickets past 10 years, and any claims?  People are the same on the water as they are on land or in the air.  Careful drivers on land and in the air, will be careful captains on the water.   

I also think that the owners that will be insured by AGIC should be required to have three owners confirm that the owner is worthy of getting insurance through AGIC.  The first 200 owners insured also need to be well vetted be part of the group.  All you need is a few bad actors to bankrupt an insurance company.  Everyone has different ideas of what the appropriate level of experience should be required to sail an Amel off shore.  What would be the level of instruction/experience required for new owners, and who would be capable of imparting that knowledge and signing off for a new owner to be insured.  Bill's class would be a good one, but should Bill alone be able to sign off for a new member?  No one person should.  

There's a lot of benefits we could gain by starting this venture.  For one, it would make the AMEL brand more valuable if the insurance was transferrable to a new owner given a mandatory level of experience, no claims (any insurance), and an AMEL offshore sailing course.  Just like a check ride by the FAA.  

To do this right we need a village, and I think the AMEL Owners are the right village.  If we start now, we could draft a document and get this started by the end of the year.

First get interest level.  200 boats would probably be a good start.
Draft a Document how the company would operate.
  1.  Investments
  2.  Personal requirements to be insured
  3.  What/Where will the insurance cover
  4.  How/who will manage the claims
  5.  Define a bad risk owner, and how will a bad risk owner be deleted from the insurance group.
  6.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.
  7.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.



So the first think would be to find out who is interested in the insurance, and each should answer the following questions.  If there is interest we need to get everyone into a spreadsheet and when we get to 200 people we can move forward to the next step.
HERE IS MINE
1.  Current Insurance Company:  JACKLINE POLICY[TDB]    ERGO GERMANY via POEMA in SOUTH PACIFIC Thailand office but premium paid to NOUMEA NEW CALEDONIA.  LLOYDS syndicate
2.  Cost yearly: $5700[TDB]   USD7,108.75 BUT this includes USD1,233.75 Dutch Insurance Tax because my boat is registered in THE NETHERLANDS PLUS USD350 for increased 3rd party liability from USD3Million to USD6 Million (AUSTRALIAN $10,000,000) Between USD4,900 and USD5,200
3.  Coverage amount: $280K[TDB]  USD607,000 of which USD575,000 for the hull, machinery & equipment  USD595K - also USD575K for the hull
4.  Coverage location: Worldwide except weather zones[TDB]  AUSTRALIA – in case I go to NEW ZEALAND we will get amendment; cyclone clause – 20% deductible . NEW CALEDONIA and VANUATU between North -  5 S, South - 40 S; East – 180 East; West – 150 East. South East ASIA: North – 25N; South - 15 S; East – 130E; West – 75 E. Policy mentions specifically that cyclone etc. are covered with 5% deductible.
5.  3rd party Liability: $1M[TDB]  USD3M  plus see above USD3Million
6.  Solo Sailor: ?[TDB]  Yes NO
7.  Insurance claims - I have never had a claim on my Car Insurance, Motorcycle Insurance, Boat Insurance, or Airplane Insurance.  Yup, I HAVE NEVER MADE A CLAIM IN 40 years of driving several types of vehicles.[TDB]  Never any Marine claim
8.  Tickets in the last 10 years - Yup, I received 1 speeding ticket between San Diego and Vegas.  Just moving with traffic.  Safer to move at the same speed as traffic even though I was Breaking the Law.[TDB]  I think there was no such question or maybe for the last 3 or 5 years: NO tickets in the last 3 or 5 years.
9.  ??  Any other questions we need to ask to get the first 220 or more first responders?  Some people will not meet the standards of the majority, so we will need to get more than the number required for critical mass.  Even I may not meet the standards of some.  
 
Done rambling....

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K #262
Currently in Phuket Thailand

Matt Salatino
 

Gary Golden, Manifest Marine.
I’m a longtime customer and friend, who I met through the Moody Owners’ Association (previous boat)
He’s a good guy, and an advocate for his clients.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On May 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Ken Powers mentions the Jackline Policy he has. That product was started by Al Golden and his son Gary at their (at the time) brokerage company called IMIS, now bought out by Gowrie. Al's retired and his son Gary, as some posts in this thread note, is now on his own and expanding his offerings of cruiser's coverage. The Golden's have always been staunch supporters of the Seven Seas Cruising Association - SSCA and marketed to that group as an excellent base of customers who were cruising savvy which gave the underwriters (Markel) a desirable low-risk group to insure - quite similar to what Amel owners could do. 

Interestingly, back in the 90's another broker offered a substantial discount to sailors who were members of SSCA. Lo and behold, the membership rolls of the organization zoomed from about 2000 boats to 5000 by the late 90's as membership was never contingent on sailing experience (anyone could join SSCA as an associate and get the discount, then could become a voting "commodore" after demonstrating live-aboard and passagemaking experience). That diluted the insurance underwriting appeal and the product was dropped after a few years (there was also some other drama going on with the broker).

I'd recommend a chat with Gary which could be very instructive at least, or even present him with an opportunity he could pursue as a professional in the business to offer an AGIC policy.
Food for thought.

Craig

Teun BAAS
 

Below from Mark’s friend reflects exactly what I mentioned last week. It is no longer a matter of cost but “can I get it”.

 

On Pat and Ken’s Emails:

 

  1. I don’t think we want to get involved in managing this “self-insurance”.

 

  1. USD1.5 Million is no way enough but can be a reasonable buffer to start discussing a “synthetic” or “derivative” structure with a professional carrier such as LLOYD’s.

 

  1. Let’s first see if we really can come up with 200 interested owners; without any solid group of owners we will be nowhere in a discussion with a professional organization.

 

 

So far I have only seen “luke-warm” interest. I believe a lot of owners don’t realize what is really going on until personally confronted with refusal to renew as was my experience.

Q1 this year I was reading the thread on our AYOG Forum about insurance problems but didn’t think it would concern me as I had been with LLOYD’s for 2 years to be renewed every April.

 

January/February 2020 a fellow AMEL 54 owner asked me for the contact info of my South Pacific agent and I knew he was offered in February/March 2020 a similar cover with a similar premium as I had for the last 2 years. Knowing he got LLOYDS to insure him I was pretty certain my renewal would just be a formality UNTILL 1st week of April 2020 I was notified by my agent that LLOYDS no longer was in the sailboat insurance business.

 

That gave me 2 weeks to find an alternative .

 

So let’s first determine if we can come up with 200 really seriously interested AMEL owners; failing that we are just wasting time 😊.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

In Storage on the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 19, 2020 13:03:09

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark Erdos via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:08
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Self Insurance

 

Just as an FYI - An agent I am friendly with who understands and brokers policies for the marine insurance business sent me this:

 

I can tell you that due to the many companies pulling out of the recreational marine insurance market, including the all important reinsurers, that availability will soon be the primary concern as opposed to affordability, especially for two people cruising long distances.

 

Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward the sailors in the future.

 

He thinks things will get worse before they get better.

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us