Topics

A 55 # 9 : Chargeing and mastershunts


Courtney Gorman
 

Randall For two seasons I ran my bow thruster  with just the battery’s almost never starting the generator before using. that huge draw on the batteries sent them to the morgue years sooner than they should’ve died


On Jul 23, 2020, at 8:37 AM, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:


OK i will ask as I have semi new dead Batteries and was hoping to make it to Florida before refit. Love to know the story.

Randall
A54#56
Gibraltar

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 2:08 PM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
biggest problem with not starting the Gen is that you significantly shorten the life of your lead acid or gel batteries I'm not sure about lithiums just ask me how I know.........after killing 12 lead acid in just 2 seasons
Courtney
Trippin
54 #101 


-----Original Message-----
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2020 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A 55 # 9 : Chargeing and mastershunts

Craig, I have known Amel to "learn" and add recommendations that did not exist 30 years ago. I don't know when the generator recommendation started, but it in fact does exist.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 9:15 AM Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi John,
I stand corrected, thanks.

That you must leave the helm, go below and take, what?, 2-3 minutes to fire everything up, then return to begin docking strikes me as a procedure destined to be ignored.

Be that as it may, I can say with absolute certainty that Amel never gave that instruction for the SN ;-)
Cheers, Craig


Randall
 

OK i will ask as I have semi new dead Batteries and was hoping to make it to Florida before refit. Love to know the story.

Randall
A54#56
Gibraltar

Virus-free. www.avg.com


On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 2:08 PM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
biggest problem with not starting the Gen is that you significantly shorten the life of your lead acid or gel batteries I'm not sure about lithiums just ask me how I know.........after killing 12 lead acid in just 2 seasons
Courtney
Trippin
54 #101 


-----Original Message-----
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2020 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A 55 # 9 : Chargeing and mastershunts

Craig, I have known Amel to "learn" and add recommendations that did not exist 30 years ago. I don't know when the generator recommendation started, but it in fact does exist.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 9:15 AM Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi John,
I stand corrected, thanks.

That you must leave the helm, go below and take, what?, 2-3 minutes to fire everything up, then return to begin docking strikes me as a procedure destined to be ignored.

Be that as it may, I can say with absolute certainty that Amel never gave that instruction for the SN ;-)
Cheers, Craig


Courtney Gorman
 

biggest problem with not starting the Gen is that you significantly shorten the life of your lead acid or gel batteries I'm not sure about lithiums just ask me how I know.........after killing 12 lead acid in just 2 seasons
Courtney
Trippin
54 #101 


-----Original Message-----
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2020 10:53 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A 55 # 9 : Chargeing and mastershunts

Craig, I have known Amel to "learn" and add recommendations that did not exist 30 years ago. I don't know when the generator recommendation started, but it in fact does exist.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 9:15 AM Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi John,
I stand corrected, thanks.

That you must leave the helm, go below and take, what?, 2-3 minutes to fire everything up, then return to begin docking strikes me as a procedure destined to be ignored.

Be that as it may, I can say with absolute certainty that Amel never gave that instruction for the SN ;-)
Cheers, Craig


Craig Briggs
 

hi Bill, Glad it doesn't apply to the SN ;-)
Cheers


John Clanton
 

Craig,

 

You are exactly right about leaving the helm for this exercise.  I was single handed for a good portion of my 2018 season and got caught more than once not starting the genset in time.  It created unnecessary excitement.  Now, when going into a new harbor, I begin the process before getting to the first marker to allow enough time.  It is much easier with crew on board as that is a top training activity, and they are responsible for setting it up.

 

 

John W. Clanton

S/V Devereux

A55, No. 65

Antibes, France



Disclaimer

The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited.


 

Craig, I have known Amel to "learn" and add recommendations that did not exist 30 years ago. I don't know when the generator recommendation started, but it in fact does exist.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 9:15 AM Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sangaris=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi John,
I stand corrected, thanks.

That you must leave the helm, go below and take, what?, 2-3 minutes to fire everything up, then return to begin docking strikes me as a procedure destined to be ignored.

Be that as it may, I can say with absolute certainty that Amel never gave that instruction for the SN ;-)
Cheers, Craig


Craig Briggs
 

Hi John,
I stand corrected, thanks.

That you must leave the helm, go below and take, what?, 2-3 minutes to fire everything up, then return to begin docking strikes me as a procedure destined to be ignored.

Be that as it may, I can say with absolute certainty that Amel never gave that instruction for the SN ;-)
Cheers, Craig


John Clanton
 

Craig,

 

I cannot speak to other models, but in the factory handover of the 55, they made it clear to fire the genset and both chargers prior to starting docking maneuvers.  I am not on the boat now, but believe I have also seen that instruction in the owners manual.

 

 

John W. Clanton

S/V Devereux

A55, No. 65

Antibes, France



Disclaimer

The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited.


Billy Newport
 

I just looked on my 55 and there is a 675A master fuse under the nav seat. I used my Fluke to measure the current coming out of that fuse and the bow thruster doesn't draw power from there when I ran it which surprises me but the Fluke doesn't lie. So, there must be another 24V run to the sail locker. I'll try again tonight and measure the current up there instead.


James Watkins
 

I have a Maramu hull 185 undergoing a refit and wonder if anyone has a source for a rub rail replacement.  There are some going to be made for a Super Maramu and I was wondering if the Maramu is the same.  Thanks

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 6:39 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A 55 # 9 : Chargeing and mastershunts

 

Hi Ken,
While you say, "Thank you Bill (Rouse) for a fact I didn't know, and I don't think that most Amel owners were aware of: That Amel suggests owners to run the genset every time the bow thruster is used.", Amel absolutely did not suggest that to SN owners regarding their bow thrusters. Frankly, I kinda wonder about it for other models, too. If I'm using the BT for a long time (like fighting a cross wind)  I may rev up the engine in neutral but not for just nudging into a slip with short bursts. I would posit that the boats are designed to be able to use the BT for normal docking without having to run the genset.
Cheers, Craig

 


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Ken,
While you say, "Thank you Bill (Rouse) for a fact I didn't know, and I don't think that most Amel owners were aware of: That Amel suggests owners to run the genset every time the bow thruster is used.", Amel absolutely did not suggest that to SN owners regarding their bow thrusters. Frankly, I kinda wonder about it for other models, too. If I'm using the BT for a long time (like fighting a cross wind)  I may rev up the engine in neutral but not for just nudging into a slip with short bursts. I would posit that the boats are designed to be able to use the BT for normal docking without having to run the genset.
Cheers, Craig


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Arno, and Bill,

The fact is that large current draws on your batteries will kill them faster.  Yes, a battery can supply a lot of current, but if you use this capability you shorten their life over time.   During large current draws Arno suggests that all the batteries are equally suppling their %, but I might suggest that not all the batteries are created equal, some pairs may be supplying 110Amps and others much less.  Just like pallbearers, not all hands are supplying the same force.  

Thank you Bill for a fact I didn't know, and I don't think that most Amel owners were aware of:  That Amel suggests owners to run the genset every time the bow thruster is used.   Running the Genset does makes sense given the amount of current required for the bow thruster, and it also implies that Amel is, and was aware, that the bow thruster draw could be too high for the batteries alone.  

But, these responses do not Answer the original QUESTION;  Why are two 500Amp shunts on the A55?
And it does not Answer my question which I think will shed some light on the original question:  How many Amps the A55 Bow thruster draws?

The original question, about the A55 battery electronics going into shut down, then coming back online after a few seconds.  This is actually how I would think the electronics on a good Amel with bad batteries should work.  If you bring the voltage on your 24V batteries below 24V the Amel should go into shut down to protect the batteries ( The owner probably even has the capability to set the shut down voltage).  Then a few seconds, after the voltage increases above 24V (or what ever voltage was set for shutdown), the electronics should turn the 24V house power back on.  

Personally I would also like to know the current draw others are seeing on their Amel's.  We draw about 400Amps when we light up the bow "thirsty" thruster. 


PS:  Arno, I had 4 pairs of batteries in my SM battery compartment, the A54 or the A55 might have a bigger compartment which fits 6 pairs.  I tried to fit 5 pairs, but they didn't fit (I had Vicron 110AH AGM's 8 pieces in my battery bank).  So, on Aquarius I was looking at 400 Amps / 4 pairs = 100Amps per pair if everything being equal (which never is).   I believe that's about the MAX for my old batteries.

Ken
Aquarius
SM2K #262
Tomorrow will be hauled out in Krabi Thailand




 

Thanks, Arno for clearing this up.

And, regardless which model Amel you own, Amel suggests while running using the bow thruster, you always have the generator running with maximum battery chargers ON.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 6:48 AM Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:
Hi Ken,

About the current draw from the batteries. Don’t forget you are running 6 pairs in parallel. So each battery only has to supply 80 Amps to get to 400 Amps. 80 Amps is not excessive, even for a AGM battery. It would be if you keep doing it for 10 minutes or more.
So the battery bank is well laid out for supplying that kind of current. Your starter battery has a harder time starting the engine.
The problem starts when your batteries get old. At that point the internal resistance of the pairs becomes uneven and you will see some batteries working much harder on the current draw then others.
In case of AGM batteries, keep an eye on the individual voltages of your batteries if a pair gets out of balance it may be an indication of a bad battery. Isolate the pair and see what their voltage in rest  is. Anything below 12.2 is bad for charged batteries.
For lithium the BMS should take care of balancing the batteries and very few people know what these things do in the long run.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Ken,

About the current draw from the batteries. Don’t forget you are running 6 pairs in parallel. So each battery only has to supply 80 Amps to get to 400 Amps. 80 Amps is not excessive, even for a AGM battery. It would be if you keep doing it for 10 minutes or more.
So the battery bank is well laid out for supplying that kind of current. Your starter battery has a harder time starting the engine.
The problem starts when your batteries get old. At that point the internal resistance of the pairs becomes uneven and you will see some batteries working much harder on the current draw then others.
In case of AGM batteries, keep an eye on the individual voltages of your batteries if a pair gets out of balance it may be an indication of a bad battery. Isolate the pair and see what their voltage in rest  is. Anything below 12.2 is bad for charged batteries.
For lithium the BMS should take care of balancing the batteries and very few people know what these things do in the long run.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 
Edited

Stuart,

Though I am not completely sure why they would install two 500A shunts, the fact that they are in parallel probably answers the question.

When I use my Bow Thruster (which I sometimes refer to as the "Amel Battery Killer") in Aquarius we draw just over 400 amps.  When I first bought Aquarius, I was not looking at the amp meter when docking, it was all hands on deck.  I knew the Bow Thruster used a lot of current, but I also thought that the engine is running, and the 100 amp alternator is suppling a lot of the power...  Wrong...  When you are docking your engine is running at low RPM, and thus you will not get much current out of the alternator.  O, and even if I had my GenSet running, my charger will only charge at 100 Amps MAX.  So, I would still draw 300Amps, and that is still a massive current out of the batteries, especially lead acid batteries.  During my daily routines I would try to keep the draw on our AGM batteries less than 30 amps...  Didn't think much about the bow thruster, but it's one more reason to limit the amount of time you use the bow thruster.

Now to answer the question...  I would think that Amel did this because at some point (Probably due to the bow thruster) there is the possibility that the current draw exceeds 500A.  This would mean that the two 500Amp Shunts would have to be added to get the total amps in or out of the batteries.  

Try looking at your amp meter while you use the Bow Thruster...  In the A55 you might see up to 500amps.  I see that the A55 is fitted with a 12 HP Bow "Thirsty" motor.  That would be at the very least 380Amps!  I would be really interested to hear your current draw when using your A55 bow thruster...

Please let me know.

Thanks,

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2000#262
Looking to put her on the hard soon in Krabi Thailand


 

stephane"at"pochon.com 
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 3:50 PM Stuart Hemingway <stuart@...> wrote:

Hello Joerg,

 

Thank you for your reply regarding the two shunts .

 

There are two and they appear to installed in parallel.

 

We don’t know why.

 

We hope to progress this directly .

 

Thank you for your suggestion of Thierry & Stephane at Pochon .

 

Do you have Stephane’s full email address please.

 

Stuart

 

A.55 in Panama

 

 




Stuart Hemingway
 

Hello Joerg,

 

Thank you for your reply regarding the two shunts .

 

There are two and they appear to installed in parallel.

 

We don’t know why.

 

We hope to progress this directly .

 

Thank you for your suggestion of Thierry & Stephane at Pochon .

 

Do you have Stephane’s full email address please.

 

Stuart

 

A.55 in Panama

 

 



_._,_._,_


 


Paul Stascavage
 

Thanks Craig,

We are guests at the City Island Yacht Club but enjoyed visiting the Harlem Yacht Club restaurant when we were here last year.  It is a great club.

If they open up for outdoor dining while we are still around, I will definitely mention your name and get that free glass of ice water!

Can anyone else answer the question in the original post?

All the best 

Paul Stascavage 

S/V Rita Kathryn 
SM 466

Currently exploring City Island NY


Joerg Esdorn
 

Stuart, I was not aware my boat had two shunts and I’m away from the boat so cannot check.  But have you asked Amel (Thierry Billard - sav@...) or better yet, Stéphane at Pochon ( stephane@...)? Let me know what you find out!  Cheers Joerg


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Vigo, Spain


Craig Briggs
 
Edited

Hi Paul,
No, we left at the turn of the century to go cruising. Now in FL when not cruising. Hanging here for Covid wait. 
Craig
Just saw the HYC restaurant is not reopened, but has fantastic take out menu ; abcatering at gmail dot com to order.