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Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

David Crisp
 

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58
Courtney Gorman
 

Hi David it the problem is occuring only when slightly off the wind try pointing into the wind before furling that may help.  I've had similar issues with both the main and mizzen it seems to come and go keeping the sheet tight helps pull down the boom keeping the sail vertically tight while furling I think this helps also
Cheers
Courtney
Trippin
54#101


-----Original Message-----
From: David Crisp <david@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 8:50 am
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

karkauai
 

Hi David,
In Kristy, an SM, I also have vertical battens. The angle of the boom is critical, on Kristy it has to be close to 90d. You'll have to find WilnaGrace's sweet spot.  I always stand in the companionway where I can look up the mast and watch the sail roll in.  Go straight into the wind.  Keep some slight tension on the outhaul. There will be some creases in the lower half of the sail that have gotten a little more pronounced as my sails have stretched over the last 10 yrs. As long as the battens go in vertically with slight tension on the outhaul, she rolls in fine.

I guess if your sail is getting old it could be stretched enough to make it more finicky.

You'll figure it out, go slow and don't fret. When you've found the sweet spot it will be easy.

Be safe, Have Fun, Sail Fast!
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Harbor Island Maine


On Aug 24, 2020 8:50 AM, David Crisp <david@...> wrote:
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

CW Bill Rouse
 

My guess is that when you inspect the battens you will find some permanently twisted and possibly cracked. BTW, I am totally 100% against battens, and they will be most dangerous when you really get into trouble and have to furl because of bad conditions. 

I believe that if you must have battens that you very carefully and correctly furl and unfurl each time, that you never get yourself in emergency conditions, and that you inspect the battens at least annually then replace any batten that is found twisted or cracked. 

Did I say that I am against battens for an Amel being used as a cruising boat? Of course, if you are using your Amel to race, go for it.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 8:04 AM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi David it the problem is occuring only when slightly off the wind try pointing into the wind before furling that may help.  I've had similar issues with both the main and mizzen it seems to come and go keeping the sheet tight helps pull down the boom keeping the sail vertically tight while furling I think this helps also
Cheers
Courtney
Trippin
54#101


-----Original Message-----
From: David Crisp <david@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 8:50 am
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Arno Luijten
 

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 11:00 AM, CW Bill Rouse wrote:
Of course, if you are using your Amel to race, go for it.
Too funny! 😂
Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi David;

 

You already have great advice from others.

 

One item I can add is, just like when reefing,  or if we are in a situation that we cannot point straight into the wind, we make sure we are within 50 degrees of the apparent wind, so we can continue sailing under genoa or staysail, sheet out the main until the main starts to luff, place some tension on the outhaul, keep the boom close to 90 degrees to the mast, watch the main luff carefully from the helm and reef. This way we have plenty of time and are not rushed because we are under power and sailing.

 

We have, as I believe most others, jammed the main at least once as we became familiar with our new adventure machine. In our case, the first time it was jammed was by the broker, on the first test sail. Although, in some cases, the jam seemed almost impossible to unravel from the helm, it can be done through patience and slow furl and unfurls. You will need to have a fair amount of tension on the outhaul and work the furler in very small increments back and forth. If at sea and heavy conditions, first adjust the head sail so that the boat is sailing comfortably and safely with minimal heel, so you have plenty of time to focus on the main, without rushing or being concerned about anything else.

 

 

Happy Sailing;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

AMEL 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 5:51 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

 

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Matt Salatino
 

Good point. I find that at about 10 years of good use, the sails are too baggy to furl well in the mast. Time to restitch, or replace. 

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:58 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:


Hi David,
In Kristy, an SM, I also have vertical battens. The angle of the boom is critical, on Kristy it has to be close to 90d. You'll have to find WilnaGrace's sweet spot.  I always stand in the companionway where I can look up the mast and watch the sail roll in.  Go straight into the wind.  Keep some slight tension on the outhaul. There will be some creases in the lower half of the sail that have gotten a little more pronounced as my sails have stretched over the last 10 yrs. As long as the battens go in vertically with slight tension on the outhaul, she rolls in fine.

I guess if your sail is getting old it could be stretched enough to make it more finicky.

You'll figure it out, go slow and don't fret. When you've found the sweet spot it will be easy.

Be safe, Have Fun, Sail Fast!
Kent
SM 243
Kristy
Harbor Island Maine


On Aug 24, 2020 8:50 AM, David Crisp <david@...> wrote:
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

david bruce
 

Hi All,

It’s dumb (but short) question time regarding furling an Amel in general.   Are the furler and outhaul geared to use simultaneously? or is it an alternating actuation type maneuver in which case it seems there is often intermittent ‘slack’ created in the sail.  It seems on Liesse sometimes simultaneous activation works really well but at other times it causes too much tension on the foot of the sail for the furling motor so have to use the outhaul and furler alone in an alternating manner.  

Thanks, 

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi David;
 
You already have great advice from others.
 
One item I can add is, just like when reefing,  or if we are in a situation that we cannot point straight into the wind, we make sure we are within 50 degrees of the apparent wind, so we can continue sailing under genoa or staysail, sheet out the main until the main starts to luff, place some tension on the outhaul, keep the boom close to 90 degrees to the mast, watch the main luff carefully from the helm and reef. This way we have plenty of time and are not rushed because we are under power and sailing.
 
We have, as I believe most others, jammed the main at least once as we became familiar with our new adventure machine. In our case, the first time it was jammed was by the broker, on the first test sail. Although, in some cases, the jam seemed almost impossible to unravel from the helm, it can be done through patience and slow furl and unfurls. You will need to have a fair amount of tension on the outhaul and work the furler in very small increments back and forth. If at sea and heavy conditions, first adjust the head sail so that the boat is sailing comfortably and safely with minimal heel, so you have plenty of time to focus on the main, without rushing or being concerned about anything else.
 
 
Happy Sailing;
 
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 5:51 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54
 
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself.  
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

-- 
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58 
Courtney Gorman
 

For me I find the furler is faster than the outhaul so I slack it a little first then run at the same time watching for too much tension in the sail
CHeers
Courtney
Trippin
54#101


-----Original Message-----
From: david bruce <davidcbruce57@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 11:42 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

Hi All,

It’s dumb (but short) question time regarding furling an Amel in general.   Are the furler and outhaul geared to use simultaneously? or is it an alternating actuation type maneuver in which case it seems there is often intermittent ‘slack’ created in the sail.  It seems on Liesse sometimes simultaneous activation works really well but at other times it causes too much tension on the foot of the sail for the furling motor so have to use the outhaul and furler alone in an alternating manner.  

Thanks, 

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi David;
 
You already have great advice from others.
 
One item I can add is, just like when reefing,  or if we are in a situation that we cannot point straight into the wind, we make sure we are within 50 degrees of the apparent wind, so we can continue sailing under genoa or staysail, sheet out the main until the main starts to luff, place some tension on the outhaul, keep the boom close to 90 degrees to the mast, watch the main luff carefully from the helm and reef. This way we have plenty of time and are not rushed because we are under power and sailing.
 
We have, as I believe most others, jammed the main at least once as we became familiar with our new adventure machine. In our case, the first time it was jammed was by the broker, on the first test sail. Although, in some cases, the jam seemed almost impossible to unravel from the helm, it can be done through patience and slow furl and unfurls. You will need to have a fair amount of tension on the outhaul and work the furler in very small increments back and forth. If at sea and heavy conditions, first adjust the head sail so that the boat is sailing comfortably and safely with minimal heel, so you have plenty of time to focus on the main, without rushing or being concerned about anything else.
 
 
Happy Sailing;
 
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 5:51 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54
 
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself.  
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

-- 
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58 
Ulrich Michael Dangelmeyer
 

Hi David and all others experienced Amel furlers…

your description seems too familiar. We've been having problems with our main and mizzen for the past 3 years, just like you described. We had a blocked main in Greece at the Meltemi where we couldn't get out or roll in and it wasn't really fun. But a must have experience with our A54. We had to roll back and forth in small steps, and the fuse blew out several times, because the outhaul and the furler motor were overloaded. We had to pull out the main with a rigger and we were messed up. We took out all the battens and also closed the pockets. Also we exchanged the bungee strings inside the booms, the support the topping lift. But that all didn't help much, the HydraNet sail was 10 years old and not in the best shape. It is important that you keep the outhaul better in tension and also that you roll up in the counter clockwise direction, i.e. from right to left. Then, in my experience, the sail runs better into the furling chamber. The wind should come in about 30° from starboard. But actually we always had the fright that blocks something again, we get into trouble again and don't trust the sails. We had a new mizzen and mainsail made by Incidences Sails in La Rochelle, this is the OEM for AMEL, new technology and outstanding quality, brand new soft HydraNet and WITHOUT battens and bags. These new sails cannot be compared with the old ones, that's how soft they slip in the mast. But it is the ultimate solution, also for your account. But safety and easy sailing does not count in money.

Just my two cent.

Ulrich
„Soleil Bleu“ A54#088
<>


Am 24.08.2020 um 17:58 schrieb Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...>:

For me I find the furler is faster than the outhaul so I slack it a little first then run at the same time watching for too much tension in the sail
CHeers
Courtney
Trippin
54#101


-----Original Message-----
From: david bruce <davidcbruce57@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 11:42 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

Hi All,

It’s dumb (but short) question time regarding furling an Amel in general.   Are the furler and outhaul geared to use simultaneously? or is it an alternating actuation type maneuver in which case it seems there is often intermittent ‘slack’ created in the sail.  It seems on Liesse sometimes simultaneous activation works really well but at other times it causes too much tension on the foot of the sail for the furling motor so have to use the outhaul and furler alone in an alternating manner.  

Thanks, 

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi David;
 
You already have great advice from others.
 
One item I can add is, just like when reefing,  or if we are in a situation that we cannot point straight into the wind, we make sure we are within 50 degrees of the apparent wind, so we can continue sailing under genoa or staysail, sheet out the main until the main starts to luff, place some tension on the outhaul, keep the boom close to 90 degrees to the mast, watch the main luff carefully from the helm and reef. This way we have plenty of time and are not rushed because we are under power and sailing.
 
We have, as I believe most others, jammed the main at least once as we became familiar with our new adventure machine. In our case, the first time it was jammed was by the broker, on the first test sail. Although, in some cases, the jam seemed almost impossible to unravel from the helm, it can be done through patience and slow furl and unfurls. You will need to have a fair amount of tension on the outhaul and work the furler in very small increments back and forth. If at sea and heavy conditions, first adjust the head sail so that the boat is sailing comfortably and safely with minimal heel, so you have plenty of time to focus on the main, without rushing or being concerned about anything else.
 
 
Happy Sailing;
 
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 5:51 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54
 
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself.  
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

-- 
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58 
ngtnewington Newington
 

I have found that there is a tendency for the top batten to jam when unfurling. That is setting the sail.
I have also noted that having the kicker on hard, ie tension on the leech really helps. To that end I recommend lashing the clew down hard. In addition it is critical to have outhaul tension both furling and setting the sail.
One final note;
I have no doubt that the vertical battens are the source of the problem. Without would be a breeze but then no roach....!!

Nick
Amelia anchored Pantelli, Leros Greece
AML 54-019.


On 24 Aug 2020, at 17:00, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


My guess is that when you inspect the battens you will find some permanently twisted and possibly cracked. BTW, I am totally 100% against battens, and they will be most dangerous when you really get into trouble and have to furl because of bad conditions. 

I believe that if you must have battens that you very carefully and correctly furl and unfurl each time, that you never get yourself in emergency conditions, and that you inspect the battens at least annually then replace any batten that is found twisted or cracked. 

Did I say that I am against battens for an Amel being used as a cruising boat? Of course, if you are using your Amel to race, go for it.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 8:04 AM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi David it the problem is occuring only when slightly off the wind try pointing into the wind before furling that may help.  I've had similar issues with both the main and mizzen it seems to come and go keeping the sheet tight helps pull down the boom keeping the sail vertically tight while furling I think this helps also
Cheers
Courtney
Trippin
54#101


-----Original Message-----
From: David Crisp <david@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Aug 24, 2020 8:50 am
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Craig Briggs
 
Edited

Hi Dave,
Furler and outhaul do turn at the same (no load) rpm's with their identical 70:1 Bonfiglioli reduction gears and constant speed motors (on our SN's), but as the main furls out the diameter of the rolled up sail gets thinner so less sail comes out with each revolution whereas the outhaul with its fixed diameter drive pulley goes in and out at a fixed pace. Hence one needs to manually match speeds by intermittently releasing the switches, depending on which is going faster.  Main rolls up faster and faster as it is furled in because the thickness of roll gets fatter and the outhaul doesn't keep up so you need to compensate with the furling switch, Vice versa on setting the sail.  Plus wind pressure will affect speed. So, yes, one needs to work with toggling both switches on and off to get a smooth operation. Practice makes perfect.
Cheers, Craig - SN68 Sangaris, Tropic Isle Harbor, FL
James Alton
 

David,

   Definitely NOT a dumb question and maybe not as simple as it would first appear.  The relationship between the in mast furling system and the drive that controls the foot of the sail is non linear.  This is not intentional but occurs because as you wind sail on to the in mast extrusion, the diameter of the roll increases.  Assuming the same motor speed, the larger the diameter the faster the sail is rolled in.  The drive system for the boom is linear assuming load does not change the motor speed and does not change whether the sail is in our out.  Therefore  it is up to the operator to even things out on my boat.  I tend to look at the foot of the sail during furling through the overhead window and try to leave a bit of a curve..never letting it go straight which could indicate a high tension.  I am sure that other Amel owners have more input and advice on this.

Best,

James
SV Sueño
Maramu #220 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 11:42 AM, david bruce <davidcbruce57@...> wrote:

Hi All,

It’s dumb (but short) question time regarding furling an Amel in general.   Are the furler and outhaul geared to use simultaneously? or is it an alternating actuation type maneuver in which case it seems there is often intermittent ‘slack’ created in the sail.  It seems on Liesse sometimes simultaneous activation works really well but at other times it causes too much tension on the foot of the sail for the furling motor so have to use the outhaul and furler alone in an alternating manner.  

Thanks, 

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi David;
 
You already have great advice from others.
 
One item I can add is, just like when reefing,  or if we are in a situation that we cannot point straight into the wind, we make sure we are within 50 degrees of the apparent wind, so we can continue sailing under genoa or staysail, sheet out the main until the main starts to luff, place some tension on the outhaul, keep the boom close to 90 degrees to the mast, watch the main luff carefully from the helm and reef. This way we have plenty of time and are not rushed because we are under power and sailing.
 
We have, as I believe most others, jammed the main at least once as we became familiar with our new adventure machine. In our case, the first time it was jammed was by the broker, on the first test sail. Although, in some cases, the jam seemed almost impossible to unravel from the helm, it can be done through patience and slow furl and unfurls. You will need to have a fair amount of tension on the outhaul and work the furler in very small increments back and forth. If at sea and heavy conditions, first adjust the head sail so that the boat is sailing comfortably and safely with minimal heel, so you have plenty of time to focus on the main, without rushing or being concerned about anything else.
 
 
Happy Sailing;
 
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 5:51 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54
 
All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself.  
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

-- 
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58 
Alan Leslie
 
Edited

I agree Kent.
Elyse has vertical battens on both main and mizzen.
30-40 degrees to the wind, preferably stbd tack, boom 90 degrees to the mast.
We have marks on both sheets to enable positioning of the booms correctly before furling.
When unfurling the main we keep the foot taut by running the outhaul continuously and stopping starting the furler.
Reverse when furling, furler on continuously, outhaul off/on to keep it taut.
No problems
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437
david bruce
 

Thanks James, Craig and Courtney,   Makes perfect sense and certainly accounts for the variability in furler/outhaul ratio/speed.  Sort of a joystick pas de deux.  Now the hard part if is getting to the boat to perfect the dance.  Thanks again for the input.  Best,  Dave



On Aug 24, 2020, at 3:05 PM, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

I agree Kent.
Elyse has vertical battens on both main and mizzen.
30-40 degrees to the wind, preferably stbd tack, boom 90 degrees to the mast.
We have marks on both sheets to enable positioning of the booms correctly before furling.
No problems
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437

Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

David,

 

I had a similar problem. Since then I have always made sure to be on a starboard tack when furling in the main and have had no problem. I also recall getting this advice from Michel at Amel in Hyeres.

 

Cheers,

Paul

S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98 - Grenada

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp
Sent: 24 August 2020 14:51
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

 

All,

It's confession time and a request for advice/tips.

A week ago, for the first time ever I managed to jam the mainsail when furling it (somewhere around the first batten).  It was impossible to free the sail there and then but fortunately I was able to find shelter nearby, anchor, go up the mast and work it loose by hand.  At the time I put this down to lack of attention and over confidence and cursed myself. 
Two days later after a good sail upwind (15-20kts apparent), I started furling the main, this time watching VERY carefully, I saw creases appearing around the first batten so unfurled and tried again with the same result.  Being really nervous of a repeat episode I unfurled and carried on sailing and finally furled, without a problem, when in sheltered water. In all cases I was going upwind, maybe 10-30deg off the wind.

I'll confess this incident has been a big knock to my confidence, having a jammed, partly furled main in heavy weather is a worrying thought. I previously had a Super Maramu and never once experienced any problem like this, not even a hint of it.  Is the critical difference the vertical battens in the 54's main? 
Does anyone else have experience like this, more importantly can anyone offer advice/tips on furling the main on an A54 please.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98
David Crisp
 

Thanks everyone.  The advice is consistent and fully absorbed!  My sails are only 4 years old and in good shape. Suspect I simply didn't have adequate outhaul tension / good boom angle. 

The day I have to get new sails I'll consider going without battens and hence no roach and lower performance. My racing days are over but then you know how it is when another boat is sailing close by, the old twitch and tweak kicks in..... :-)   Seriously, I'll not leapt to conclusions until I've got a lot more miles under my belt. It is probably a case of building good habits. I have faith in Amel design.
--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58
Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi David;

 

I personally would not give up on the battens. I believe that they do add shape and performance. We have not had any issues in the past 5 years, and we have sailed, furled and unfurled in conditions up to force 9 in the Med about 5 months every year. We even did a winter season, which we will not voluntarily repeat. Our sails are original (now going on 12 years) and they look, feel and work fine. We may just add a foot line to the genoa as we seem have to have some stretch there.

 

We wash, dry and remove all sails and battens and store below at the end of every season. We keep the cabins dry by installing water accumulators in all areas. The bags are usually full to almost bursting by the time we get back at the start of the following season

 

We inspect the sails, make needed repairs and check the battens for any damage, twist, etc.

 

Happy Sailing;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

AMEL 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Crisp via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 8:58 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Mainsail jammed when furling on A54

 

Thanks everyone.  The advice is consistent and fully absorbed!  My sails are only 4 years old and in good shape. Suspect I simply didn't have adequate outhaul tension / good boom angle. 

The day I have to get new sails I'll consider going without battens and hence no roach and lower performance. My racing days are over but then you know how it is when another boat is sailing close by, the old twitch and tweak kicks in..... :-)   Seriously, I'll not leapt to conclusions until I've got a lot more miles under my belt. It is probably a case of building good habits. I have faith in Amel design.
--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58

Laurens Vos
 

Hi Ulrich,

We’re getting also more problems with a jammed main. Probably it’s because the sails getting older and more out of shape (like most of the skippers 😜). We’re also planning new sails. Sailing with your new Incidences sails was there a drop in speed compared to your main with battens ?

Regards
Laurens Vos
Fun@Sea  - A54 -092 
Ulrich Michael Dangelmeyer
 

Hi, Laurens,

we have long thought about which sailmaker is suitable for us.In the end, we decided on Incidences, because they took over all original cuts of the predecessor company Demme and are also internationally one of the top sailmakers also in the French racing scene. They are still the OEM for Amel which is important for us. Also as a European manufacturer in France. At the boat show in Düsseldorf we had long discussions with the specialists from Incidence and again decided to use cruising sails made of Hydranet Triradial. They explained to us that with today's material the sail can be cut a little bit bigger than the original and still remain sturdy profile without battens through the fabric.  For this we negotiated a special price at the fair. In another Amel friend with the almost same 54 (from 2008) had just as much trouble furling and ordered new sails online. It was not as expensive but he is not as happy with it as he had imagined.
To your question: the previous sails had only caused us trouble, also because they didn't have a sturdy profile anymore, and without battens it was just too baggy. There was no performance to think about. This year we didn't have the opportunity to test the new sails in practice because of the covid situation, but the easy furling into the mast alone is a great relief for us and when rolled out the sails stand very well and let us hope for a much better performance than before. In case of doubt, problem-free handling and safety is far more important to us than performance. We are cruisers and not racers, the time is over.

Hope this helps.
Happy sailing and stay safe.

Ulrich
„Soleil Bleu“ A54#088
<>


Hi Ulrich,

We’re getting also more problems with a jammed main. Probably it’s because the sails getting older and more out of shape (like most of the skippers 😜). We’re also planning new sails. Sailing with your new Incidences sails was there a drop in speed compared to your main with battens ?

Regards
Laurens Vos
Fun@Sea  - A54 -092 
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