Registering an SM in Canada
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Jeff Williams
Hi All,
In the process of buying SM#379 Spruzzo (thinking of keeping the name). Boat is currently in Sicily and plan on cruising the Med for the next few years. I'm going to register the boat in Canada....has anyone used a Canadian surveyor to get a Canadian Tonnage Certificate for their SM 2000? If so can you give me the name of the surveyor? Thanks! Jeff Williams
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Germain Jean-Pierre
Hello Jeff,
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I am Canadian as well and my reg is UK. Why do you need CDN surveyor for tonnage? I used the renowned surveyor named Olivier Beauté, ex director of after sales at Amel. He is completely qualified to tell you the tonnage... they are all identical!! Good luck Jean-Pierre Germain, Eleuthera, SM007, Opua, NZ
On 17/10/2020, at 6:53 AM, Jeff Williams <jeff99williams@...> wrote:
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Jeff Williams
Hi Jean-Pierre, It is a Canadian Transport Canada thing. Need a Canadian registered surveyor to complete a tonnage certificate form if the boat is over 15m to register the boat in Canada. I used Olivier for my survey and he was excellent. Thanks, Jeff
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 2:57 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
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Germain Jean-Pierre
Hi Jeff,
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Hmmm. Have you thought of a Dutch or Belgian registry? Resale might be simpler.... Good luck Jean-Pierre Germain
On 17/10/2020, at 8:09 AM, Jeff Williams <jeff99williams@...> wrote:
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Since 2018 incident where a Dutch ICP registered GERMAN vessel illegally entered MALTESE waters with 234 migrants the Dutch government swiftly issued a law that Dutch ICP Registry is no good and is NOT allowed to fly the Dutch flag; and how do I know ??? However, The Dutch KADASTER registry is perfect & 100% legal and recognized worldwide but means the KADASTER officers have to visit the boat in person. Difficult now with COVID-19 (especially now THE NETHERLANDS as well as BELGIUM are the hotbeds of CORONA – EU code RED ☹) and expensive.
Working on a solution for AMELIT I got a couple of weeks ago this Email – it seems that Italy as well as PORTUGAL are really creating problems on the EU ICP since 2019 and clamping down.
QUOTE
Several disturbing signals have reached us concerning the Italian acceptance of the EU ICP Light Registration.
Since last week it seems that the Italian nautical authorities no longer accept the EU ICP Light Registration.
In some cases this has resulted in the fact that the yacht was detained and only could leave the marina once the owner switched from registration type.
This because of the fact that the EU ICP Light Registration is a ownerships registration and not a flag (Title) registration. The Italians since this week only accept flag certificates.
In the case you sail in Italy or plan to sail in Italy we strongly advise you to check what kind of registration you have and consider to update it to a (Title) flag registration.
At this moment the most popular registration for yacht owners who sail in Italy is the Polish EU Flag registration and which includes a provisional registration which will be released in just a few days after the registration request.
UNQUOTE
Best Regards Teun
A54 2009 #128 October 16, 2020 13:30:03
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Germain Jean-Pierre via groups.io
Hi Jeff,
Hmmm. Have you thought of a Dutch or Belgian registry?
Resale might be simpler....
Good luck
Jean-Pierre Germain
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amelforme
Hello Jeff as you have probably come to understand, the Canadian tonnage is a nearly but not exactly the same thing as the UK tonnage. It is based on ancient and arcane measurements that support the formulation of a "tonnage" that measures the volumetrics of the interior. It was used long ago to calculate how much "stuff" a commercial vessel could carry and hence, how much tax could be applied by the government.
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It has nothing to do with weight or displacement. I was told not too long ago, but don't have this on any authority, that you can get Transport Canada to give you the forms to fill out by any accredited marine surveyor. Again, I was told this worked by someone who should know but I was not part of the process. Also, TransCan used to have a list of world wide surveyors that were approved for this particular survey but that was at least a decade ago and maybe longer. Maybe worth digging a bit deeper? Good luck with it. JOEL F. POTTER CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST LLC THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY Office 954-462-5869
On Oct 16, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Jeff Williams <jeff99williams@...> wrote:
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Hi Jeff,
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in Austria is the same issue for registration. I send the drawing, every Amel have it in its papers to a nautical engineer and he did this for me. So the tax can calculate by the government. It was a small amount. Best Arnold Zephyr SM 203 Am 16.10.2020 um 22:40 schrieb amelforme <jfpottercys@...>: Hello Jeff as you have probably come to understand, the Canadian tonnage is a nearly but not exactly the same thing as the UK tonnage. It is based on ancient and arcane measurements that support the formulation of a "tonnage" that measures the volumetrics of the interior. It was used long ago to calculate how much "stuff" a commercial vessel could carry and hence, how much tax could be applied by the government. It has nothing to do with weight or displacement. I was told not too long ago, but don't have this on any authority, that you can get Transport Canada to give you the forms to fill out by any accredited marine surveyor. Again, I was told this worked by someone who should know but I was not part of the process. Also, TransCan used to have a list of world wide surveyors that were approved for this particular survey but that was at least a decade ago and maybe longer. Maybe worth digging a bit deeper? Good luck with it. JOEL F. POTTER CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST LLC THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY Office 954-462-5869
On Oct 16, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Jeff Williams <jeff99williams@...> wrote:
-- Arnold SY Zephyr SM203
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Randall Walker
Hello Jeff, I looked into buying Moon dog an SM in Pennsylvania. When they told me how much the tax and duty with the need for the Government survey, I found it easier to just go to France and buy an Amel with a french flag. So to save on the import duties as Canada has a free trade agreement with Europe. You can buy a boat from the country of the manufacturer duty-free. You then pay only the local tax in Canada. Alberta has no provincial sales tax so there is only the GST to pay, in all other provinces you pay HST. All this said you save yourself a load of money. (but yes the survey still has to be done) In the end, I went to Spain and purchased my boat from a Brit. The vat was paid already, So I left the registry British paid 250 pounds for the 5-year registry, just a name change on the registry. Done with no pain or tax. And fly the red ensign. This is the cheapest way to do it. My plans were to sail in sunny equatorial waters, so I will not enter Canadian waters to subject to any import fees. Good luck, Randall A54#56 Gibraltar
On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 7:53 PM Jeff Williams <jeff99williams@...> wrote: Hi All,
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Germain Jean-Pierre
Hi Jeff, Randall et al Canuckians,
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I did just as Randall. No regrets. Jean-Pierre Germain, Eleuthera, SM007, NZ
On 17/10/2020, at 6:28 PM, Randall <sailingalbedo@...> wrote:
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Much depends on whether you wish to sail in Canadian waters. If not, there is no tax or duty issues involved. If so, then as others have suggested choose your jurisdiction wisely. Double check the duty because I don’t believe all of the Euro-Canada free trade agreement has been implemented yet. And perhaps find a kindly surveyor to put a minimum value for your boat. A further suggestion comes from a friend who shall remain nameless. Choose a 24 hour secondary harbour to checkin and arrive in the middle of the night. Best of luck.
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Paul
Dealing with Transport Canada can be challenging, frustrating and a bit of a crap shoot. A lot of how easy or difficult your registration process goes will simply be determined by who ends up in charge of your file.
Carefully read the Transport Canada forms on how and what they want for ships measurements. They are not looking for the actual length of your boat, (look really carefully at the forms). If you do a search on the Transport Canada site you are able to look at other Amel that are registered in Canada. You will find a lot of the Amels have something in the range of the following measurements: Length 14.85 meters, Breath 4.60 meters, Depth 3.29 meters, Gross Tonnage 17.97, Net Tonnage 17.08, Brake Power 73.6 KW. There are advantages, as mentioned by others above, of registering your Amel in a country other than Canada. It depends on where you plan to sail. Congratulations and Good Luck, Fair winds, Paul Aramis, SM 2000 - 444
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