Furler motor to gearbox sm2000


michael winand
 

Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. 
I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. 
Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?
The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. 
I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. 
I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. 
Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. 
Many thanks to the group 
Michael  Nebo  sm251 





Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Friction causes over loading. So what are the posible friction points. Well there are the bearings in the gear box if they are not lubricated, a good starting point. But a much over looked one and more likely is the swivel at the topmof the sail. This gets encrusted with salt and can in the worst  case not rotate at all. It is more likely to be less extreme than that but can cause your problem. It will also cause the bolt hole a the bottom of the foil extrusion to elongate and even fracture. Solution. Lower the main sail to access the swivel. Thoroughly flush it with pressure fresh water, allow itv to dry, then liberally apply spay can silicon. This should be part of regular maintenance.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 November 2020 at 21:15 "michael winand via groups.io" <mfw642000@...> wrote:

Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. Many thanks to the group Michael  Nebo  sm251 




 


michael winand
 

Thanks  Danny.
I will drop the main to check the top swivel. 
When the furler stopped it was being unfurled. 
I used the winch handle to put the sail away and it was very easy to rotate the foil. 
The break looks like it's clean, ie not a partial break that has let go. But hard to tell. 
I  normally keep the outhaul  slack when furling in and out. Tight in a few spots to keep the sail neat when furling in.  Not sure if this could be my fault?.
The ratio of the gearbox,  makes me feel that the shaft that has sheared is unusual?  I was a little surprised by what I found, I was expecting to find that the leroy somer gearbox pinion gears were worn out in a section that stopped the worm from engaging. 
Regards Michael Nebo sm251 


On Sun, 8 Nov 2020 at 6:33 pm, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
<simms@...> wrote:

Friction causes over loading. So what are the posible friction points. Well there are the bearings in the gear box if they are not lubricated, a good starting point. But a much over looked one and more likely is the swivel at the topmof the sail. This gets encrusted with salt and can in the worst  case not rotate at all. It is more likely to be less extreme than that but can cause your problem. It will also cause the bolt hole a the bottom of the foil extrusion to elongate and even fracture. Solution. Lower the main sail to access the swivel. Thoroughly flush it with pressure fresh water, allow itv to dry, then liberally apply spay can silicon. This should be part of regular maintenance.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 November 2020 at 21:15 "michael winand via groups.io" <mfw642000@...> wrote:


Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. Many thanks to the group Michael  Nebo  sm251 




 


Aras Grinius
 

On my Sharki, I have a problem with my swivel (top of the mast).  Turns out the swivel was locked up.  It caused the tnages to crack and shear.  More importantly it also made the motor work really hard to furl the sail..
I took it to a machine shop and I am going to have it duplicated ( it's 32 years old) since it was original equipment. Nonetheless, I would check to see if your jib furler might be part of the issue.,

Aras
Shark #163 1988

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 4:56 AM michael winand via groups.io <mfw642000=yahoo.com.au@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks  Danny.
I will drop the main to check the top swivel. 
When the furler stopped it was being unfurled. 
I used the winch handle to put the sail away and it was very easy to rotate the foil. 
The break looks like it's clean, ie not a partial break that has let go. But hard to tell. 
I  normally keep the outhaul  slack when furling in and out. Tight in a few spots to keep the sail neat when furling in.  Not sure if this could be my fault?.
The ratio of the gearbox,  makes me feel that the shaft that has sheared is unusual?  I was a little surprised by what I found, I was expecting to find that the leroy somer gearbox pinion gears were worn out in a section that stopped the worm from engaging. 
Regards Michael Nebo sm251 


On Sun, 8 Nov 2020 at 6:33 pm, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
<simms@...> wrote:

Friction causes over loading. So what are the posible friction points. Well there are the bearings in the gear box if they are not lubricated, a good starting point. But a much over looked one and more likely is the swivel at the topmof the sail. This gets encrusted with salt and can in the worst  case not rotate at all. It is more likely to be less extreme than that but can cause your problem. It will also cause the bolt hole a the bottom of the foil extrusion to elongate and even fracture. Solution. Lower the main sail to access the swivel. Thoroughly flush it with pressure fresh water, allow itv to dry, then liberally apply spay can silicon. This should be part of regular maintenance.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 08 November 2020 at 21:15 "michael winand via groups.io" <mfw642000=yahoo.com.au@groups.io> wrote:


Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. Many thanks to the group Michael  Nebo  sm251 




 



--
Aras Grinius


Karen Smith
 

On the subject of Leroy Somer furling motors, we learned a bit about them this year--way more than we wanted to.

For the first time since we owned Harmonie, the outhaul motor exhibited classic signs of needing new brushes:  irregular operation.  When I removed the brush holders, oddly, the brushes looked fine. Upon further disassembly the rest of the story was obvious.  25 years of accumulated carbon dust had obstructed the rotation of the armature to the point that the friction shattered the internal magnets. This motor was dead.

Amel shipped us a new motor which fit and works just fine. Key point here:  Whenever changing brushes do not just pull them out of the holder and drop new ones in, but clean out all the dust. Do not let it accumulate inside the motor!  Do not assume that previous owners or mechanics did this correctly.

Lesson learned, we completely disassembled the furling motor (which is identical), and cleaned the inside with vacuum and contact cleaner, dressed and polished the commutator, and tested resistances.  All checked out well, so they should be good for the next 25 years...

Notes on the new motor:  the new Leroy-Somer motor carried the same part number, and was in all key external dimensions identical to the 25 year old original. It mounted and worked just fine. The internals are quite different, however. Key for maintenance is the fact that the brushes are different.  Instead of two externally accessible brushes, the new design requires disassembly of the motor and replacement of the entire internal brush holder assembly because the four (not two!) brushes are welded in place to the holder.  This emphasizes the importance of sending pictures of parts to Amel when ordering.  If you simply order brushes for Leroy-Somer motor Part Number XXX_XXX you might not get what you need.

Other important lessons that would have saved us this cost:
* Electric motors are (almost) forever if regularly cared for.  The furling motors hadn't gotten to the top of our list for a professional rebuild.
* Take stuff apart.  You learn a lot, and this problem could have been avoided if this motor had been on my "take it apart and put it back together for no reason" list. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160
Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


Alan Leslie
 

Thanks Bill,
There must be another motor in this series.
When I replaced a motor a little more than a year ago, the motor that came was the 4 brush type but it was a smaller diameter than the the old motor, which caused issues with mounting the cover.
When I visited La Rochelle last year, Maud showed me, and I bought, a cover mounting ring to suit this smaller diameter motor.
Was the motor you received from AMEL the same diameter as your original motor ? If so, then this is a different motor again to what I received.
Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


michael winand
 

Thanks Bill. I am interested to know if the motor can be repaired where the shaft has broken.?I'm still at a loss to know what happened to cause the shaft to break between the gearbox and motor?
. I am thinking that I will replace the whole motor and gearbox with a new one.  
Thanks for your input 
Michael  Nebo sm251 


On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 2:29 am, Karen Smith via groups.io
<karenharmonie@...> wrote:
On the subject of Leroy Somer furling motors, we learned a bit about them this year--way more than we wanted to.

For the first time since we owned Harmonie, the outhaul motor exhibited classic signs of needing new brushes:  irregular operation.  When I removed the brush holders, oddly, the brushes looked fine. Upon further disassembly the rest of the story was obvious.  25 years of accumulated carbon dust had obstructed the rotation of the armature to the point that the friction shattered the internal magnets. This motor was dead.

Amel shipped us a new motor which fit and works just fine. Key point here:  Whenever changing brushes do not just pull them out of the holder and drop new ones in, but clean out all the dust. Do not let it accumulate inside the motor!  Do not assume that previous owners or mechanics did this correctly.

Lesson learned, we completely disassembled the furling motor (which is identical), and cleaned the inside with vacuum and contact cleaner, dressed and polished the commutator, and tested resistances.  All checked out well, so they should be good for the next 25 years...

Notes on the new motor:  the new Leroy-Somer motor carried the same part number, and was in all key external dimensions identical to the 25 year old original. It mounted and worked just fine. The internals are quite different, however. Key for maintenance is the fact that the brushes are different.  Instead of two externally accessible brushes, the new design requires disassembly of the motor and replacement of the entire internal brush holder assembly because the four (not two!) brushes are welded in place to the holder.  This emphasizes the importance of sending pictures of parts to Amel when ordering.  If you simply order brushes for Leroy-Somer motor Part Number XXX_XXX you might not get what you need.

Other important lessons that would have saved us this cost:
* Electric motors are (almost) forever if regularly cared for.  The furling motors hadn't gotten to the top of our list for a professional rebuild.
* Take stuff apart.  You learn a lot, and this problem could have been avoided if this motor had been on my "take it apart and put it back together for no reason" list. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160
Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


 

There is no way that I know of to repair that shaft. I suggest that you contact SAV"at"Amel.fr

Send them a photo along with your Request For Quote.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 12:22 AM michael winand via groups.io <mfw642000=yahoo.com.au@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill. I am interested to know if the motor can be repaired where the shaft has broken.?I'm still at a loss to know what happened to cause the shaft to break between the gearbox and motor?
. I am thinking that I will replace the whole motor and gearbox with a new one.  
Thanks for your input 
Michael  Nebo sm251 


On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 2:29 am, Karen Smith via groups.io
<karenharmonie=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On the subject of Leroy Somer furling motors, we learned a bit about them this year--way more than we wanted to.

For the first time since we owned Harmonie, the outhaul motor exhibited classic signs of needing new brushes:  irregular operation.  When I removed the brush holders, oddly, the brushes looked fine. Upon further disassembly the rest of the story was obvious.  25 years of accumulated carbon dust had obstructed the rotation of the armature to the point that the friction shattered the internal magnets. This motor was dead.

Amel shipped us a new motor which fit and works just fine. Key point here:  Whenever changing brushes do not just pull them out of the holder and drop new ones in, but clean out all the dust. Do not let it accumulate inside the motor!  Do not assume that previous owners or mechanics did this correctly.

Lesson learned, we completely disassembled the furling motor (which is identical), and cleaned the inside with vacuum and contact cleaner, dressed and polished the commutator, and tested resistances.  All checked out well, so they should be good for the next 25 years...

Notes on the new motor:  the new Leroy-Somer motor carried the same part number, and was in all key external dimensions identical to the 25 year old original. It mounted and worked just fine. The internals are quite different, however. Key for maintenance is the fact that the brushes are different.  Instead of two externally accessible brushes, the new design requires disassembly of the motor and replacement of the entire internal brush holder assembly because the four (not two!) brushes are welded in place to the holder.  This emphasizes the importance of sending pictures of parts to Amel when ordering.  If you simply order brushes for Leroy-Somer motor Part Number XXX_XXX you might not get what you need.

Other important lessons that would have saved us this cost:
* Electric motors are (almost) forever if regularly cared for.  The furling motors hadn't gotten to the top of our list for a professional rebuild.
* Take stuff apart.  You learn a lot, and this problem could have been avoided if this motor had been on my "take it apart and put it back together for no reason" list. 

Bill Kinney
SM#160
Harmonie
Annapolis, MD


Mike Ondra
 

I have experienced exactly the same shaft sharing on both the outhaul Leroy summer motor as well as the furling motor. Clean brakes both. My sense is that with a very very slight misalignment of the gearbox to the motor shaft that overtime stresses eventually weaken the shaft and then an incident of shock load from operating The motor shears the shaft.
Mike Ondra
Aletes SM #240

On Nov 8, 2020, at 3:15 AM, michael winand via groups.io <mfw642000@...> wrote:

Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. 
I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. 
Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?
The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. 
I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. 
I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. 
Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. 
Many thanks to the group 
Michael  Nebo  sm251 
<20201108_171619.jpg>




<20201108_171619.jpg>


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

I would have to agree with Bill,  

To fix you furler it will probably take a new motor, and maybe a new gearbox.  I would rebuild the old gear box and carry it as a spare.  I carry a new spare motor, and a spare rebuilt gear box, ready to go in case of a problem.  Someone mentioned that the new motors are a different diameter, and I found this out as well.  I built up the diameter of the the motor where it attaches to the cover attachment with some good tape.  Just about 3 to 4 times around the motor with some good tape and the cover attachment piece fit snugly on the motor.  It was in one of my videos about the Main Sail of a Super Maramu.

Ken Powers
Aquarius
SM2K 262

Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxxNAIa8-mg

Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0HIWBv1Pfc

Part 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bdvDqBMqxs

Part 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Srg4Q2oL5I


michael winand
 

Thanks Mike.  I think you may have been able to explain what caused the problem. I know it's been installed for 20years in my case. Upon removing the gearbox and motor to inspect, I found that it was in good order being in the original condition. Cover over the motor still  had the original silicone. 
I may have a engineering workaround to repair the shaft for a spare. 
Michael Nebo sm251 


On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 4:04 am, Mike Ondra via groups.io
<mdondra@...> wrote:
I have experienced exactly the same shaft sharing on both the outhaul Leroy summer motor as well as the furling motor. Clean brakes both. My sense is that with a very very slight misalignment of the gearbox to the motor shaft that overtime stresses eventually weaken the shaft and then an incident of shock load from operating The motor shears the shaft.
Mike Ondra
Aletes SM #240

On Nov 8, 2020, at 3:15 AM, michael winand via groups.io <mfw642000@...> wrote:

Hi.I have encountered this problem with my main furler motor. 
I have sheared the shaft on the leroy somer motor where it enters the gearbox. 
Any suggestions on how I would be causing this problem?
The gearbox is still working well. As I have it apart I will give it a full service. 
I would like to ask if anyone has been through this issue and what action is needed to fix this. 
I'm not sure if this is a design that allows the shaft to be replaced as a sacrificial item to prevent overloading?I have taken a photo of the issue. 
Apon removal it was still the original installation. The electrical brushes still have most of their length intact. 
Many thanks to the group 
Michael  Nebo  sm251 
<20201108_171619.jpg>




<20201108_171619.jpg>


michael winand
 

Thanks Ken, I think we all appreciate your videos. 
Safe travels. 
Michael Nebo 


On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 4:14 am, Ken Powers SV Aquarius
<ken@...> wrote:
I would have to agree with Bill,  

To fix you furler it will probably take a new motor, and maybe a new gearbox.  I would rebuild the old gear box and carry it as a spare.  I carry a new spare motor, and a spare rebuilt gear box, ready to go in case of a problem.  Someone mentioned that the new motors are a different diameter, and I found this out as well.  I built up the diameter of the the motor where it attaches to the cover attachment with some good tape.  Just about 3 to 4 times around the motor with some good tape and the cover attachment piece fit snugly on the motor.  It was in one of my videos about the Main Sail of a Super Maramu.

Ken Powers
Aquarius
SM2K 262

Part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxxNAIa8-mg

Part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0HIWBv1Pfc

Part 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bdvDqBMqxs

Part 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Srg4Q2oL5I