In Mast Furling
Bruno COTTE
Incidence made all the sails of A55 . Only a few first were with battens
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Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 30 janv. 2023 à 14:19, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> a écrit :
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The other "interesting thing" is the A55 sails made by Incidence Sails originally came with vertical battens. During the production of the A55 Incidence Sails stopped making sails for Amel with battens. Incidence made most of the sails for the A54 production beginning after Demi went out of business. Incidence stopped making sails with battens for any Amel (new or old) because of all of the issues with battens on Amels. This information was directly from a director at Incidence Sails. I also heard that the A54 had a larger slot than the SM, but I am not sure that is correct. I haven't measured it and although I have a drawing of the SM mast, I do not have one of the A54 or A55. Bill
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 3:56 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote: Very interesting regardin the full battens.... |
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Very interesting regardin the full battens....
UI contacted Elvstrom about this and they told me...it is possible on a 54, but not on an SM, because of the width of the slot in the aft of the main mast. Apparently the slot in the 54 mast is wider than the SM, so the only way an SM can have battens is as we have...short battens that don't overlap. We inherited these sails from the previous owner, and given that the upwind power comes from the genoa, not the main, I doubt it makes much difference if you have battens or not. Wholly different story with a slab reefed main...my previous IOR boat had full horizontal battens with a huge roached main and she was a witch to windward, but I'm too old for that now .. that's why I bought an Amel .. confort at sea.! Cheers Alan Elyse SM437 |
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Hi Martin, on my boat, the mainsail - original Incidence Sails, without battens - looks still somewhat ok when un-reefed although the draft has moved back quite a bit so I need a lot of halyard tension to move it to the right place. But as soon as I reef the sail, the cloth seems to bunch up at the leech and the sail becomes very deep with the draft way back. Very inefficient upwind. How does your sail look upwind when reefed? Do the battens prevent the bunching?
Joerg Esdorn A55 #53 Kincsem Currently in Craobh Haven, Scotland |
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Hello Joerg,
Since we got these sails we never had any problem furling them downwind or on broad reach. The only problem that can occur when unfurling is that the top of the first batten gets caught in the V1 shroud. To avoid this, we bring the boom closer if necessary.
From our point of view one of the most important skills a bluewater yacht must have is the ability to reef and furl main (and mizzen) on all courses to the wind. It may sound strange but my captain and I voted for full battened sails because we were (and still are) convinced that it is the most reliable solution using an in mast furling system. --- Interesting to see your pics, Laurens. The front battens end clearly above the foot. This certainly makes it much easier to pull out the battens compared to our design. The sails on the pics have fewer battens: 4 and 3 instead of 5 and 4 like ours. The sail cloth seems to be membrane instead of our laminate fabrics (triradial). |
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Dave_Benjamin
As a sailmaker, I hope that your Elvstrom representative is local and can sort out any issues you have in person. When adding battens to a furling mainsail, we are eliminating leech hollow somewhat or completely and in some cases adding some positive roach. I've been very cautious with battens in furling mains because we've seen some fellow cruisers have issues with them. I think the advantage of attempting this on the Amel is that the cavity is generously sized unlike the masts we encounter on common production boats. The way Henri designed these boats was with a low aspect ratio sailplan that relies more on the genoa to drive the boat. The performance gains of adding battens to furling mains on an Amel are not the same gains that someone with a high aspect sloop rig would have. Also, the gains are most notable while sailing upwind, which whilst cruising, hopefully we are not doing so much of. Many years ago we set up an Oyster furling main with partial battens to eliminate hollow and the boat transited the Southern Ocean without issue. Regards, Dave Benjamin |
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As we planned also new sails we looked and asked around a bit. We came in contact with Elvstrom. They did gave us good advice and bring us in contact with an Amel 54 owner who already have their fully battened sails. |
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Further to my post above, I spoke with a friend who is in the process of ordering a Hallberg Rassy. I’m fact, HR offers three choices of furling mainsails, no battens, short vertical battens, and full length vertical battens. They tell prospective owners that the sail with full length battens should only be furled downwind if the boat is on the tack where the battens are to windward on the sail. If the boat is on the other tack, the battens may prevent the sail from furling into the mast because they are pressed against the mast and may jam in the groove. So they recommend a battenless sail for world girdling. Martin, have you had no issues with furling downwind?
Joerg Esdorn A55 #53 Kincsem Currently in La Rochelle |
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Scott, Incidence Sails, the OEM manufacturer for Amel has issued special pricing for 3 qualities of sails for Super Maramus, 54s, and 55s. I negotiated the special pricing for my clients, and in a previous posting opened the pricing to also members of this group. The discount is 15% for less than a full set or 18% when ordering a full set. As you can see in the table below, a full set of Hydranet sails including the 18% discount is 15,252 euro. This does not include VAT or Freight. For more information on 54s or other models see my website by following this link: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/incidence-sails.html
On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 11:52 AM Martin Birkhoff <mbirkhoff@...> wrote: By the way, |
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By the way,
Trans-Ocean e.V. is open to everyone. The annual membership fee is 90 euros. So a membership can be well worth. ,-) |
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Scott,
all sails are made of different laminates.
Main 44.2 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-L 320 g/m²
20% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-23 Offshore 450 g/m²
Mizzen 25,0 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-L 320 g/m²
20% Dyneema DYS-07 Offshore 400 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
Genoa 75.0 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-M 380 g/m²
30% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-23 Offshore 450 g/m²
Staysail 21,5 m²: 40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-M 380 g/m²
60% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
The staysail is smaller than the original staysail.
The prices in 2016 were
Mainsail 6.100 €
Mizzen 3.750 €
Genoa incl. UV protection 9.150
Jib incl. UV protection 3.050
each incl. 10% discount and 19% VAT
We got the discount as members of Trans-Ocean e.V., a German Blue Water Association. Regards Martin Birkhoff
Mago del Sur - 54#40
currently on shore Worpswede Germany |
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Let me point out that Elvstrom Sails, who make the sails for Halberg Rassy, has been making these sails with the long battens for what seems like a decade. All HRs with furling Mains seem the have them as standard. If anyone has access to the HR forum, maybe it would be possible to get their experience with the system. Not only should these long battens improve sail shape but also sail longevity since the sail will not flog as much.
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Scott SV Tengah
Sorry, of course, I meant the cost for the fully battened main and mizzen. Then the Genoa. I presume by "jib", you mean staysail?
-- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com |
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Scott SV Tengah
Martin,
How much did it cost for your fully battened main, Genoa and mizzen? Is it hydranet? -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com |
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All the best for 2022 to all Amelians
For those who are interested, here a supplement on the subject of fully battened main:
By chance, I spoke to the former owner of the Super Maramu Stenella today. (Sold eight weeks ago.) He had replaced the main and mizzen on his Super Maramu with fully battened sails in 2011. The sailmaker was Beilken. All battens are consistently led to the foot of the sail. As he reported, there have never been any problems with the battened sails when furling, unfurling or reefing over the years!
Regards
Martin Mago del Sur - 54#40
Marina di Ragusa, Sicily |
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Hi Laurens,
1. Until today, we had no problems furling and unfurling the main and mizzen, no matter which angle to the wind the boat was facing and how strong the wind was.
Regards |
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Hi Martin, Best regards |
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Interesting. None of the 54s I have seen (probably 30-40) have battens this low. Everyone I have seen has battens in about the top 1/3rd to top 1/2 of the sail.
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:45 PM Martin Birkhoff <mbirkhoff@...> wrote:
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Hi, |
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Hi Randall, |
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