In Mast Furling


Bruno COTTE
 

Incidence made all the sails of A55 . Only a few first were with battens 

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Le 30 janv. 2023 à 14:19, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> a écrit :


The other "interesting thing" is the A55 sails made by Incidence Sails originally came with vertical battens. During the production of the A55 Incidence Sails stopped making sails for Amel with battens. Incidence made most of the sails for the A54 production beginning after Demi went out of business. Incidence stopped making sails with battens for any Amel (new or old) because of all of the issues with battens on Amels. This information was directly from a director at Incidence Sails.

I also heard that the A54 had a larger slot than the SM, but I am not sure that is correct. I haven't measured it and although I have a drawing of the SM mast, I do not have one of the A54 or A55.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 3:56 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Very interesting regardin the full battens....
UI contacted Elvstrom about this and they told me...it is possible on a 54, but not on an SM, because of the width of the slot in the aft of the  main mast.
Apparently the slot in the 54 mast is wider than the SM, so the only way an SM can have battens is as we have...short battens that don't overlap.
We inherited these sails from the previous owner, and given that the upwind power comes from the genoa, not the main, I doubt it makes much difference if you have battens or not.
Wholly different story with a slab reefed main...my previous IOR boat had full horizontal battens with a huge roached main and she was a witch to windward, but I'm too old for that now .. that's why I bought an Amel .. confort at sea.!
Cheers
Alan 
Elyse SM437


 

The other "interesting thing" is the A55 sails made by Incidence Sails originally came with vertical battens. During the production of the A55 Incidence Sails stopped making sails for Amel with battens. Incidence made most of the sails for the A54 production beginning after Demi went out of business. Incidence stopped making sails with battens for any Amel (new or old) because of all of the issues with battens on Amels. This information was directly from a director at Incidence Sails.

I also heard that the A54 had a larger slot than the SM, but I am not sure that is correct. I haven't measured it and although I have a drawing of the SM mast, I do not have one of the A54 or A55.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 3:56 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Very interesting regardin the full battens....
UI contacted Elvstrom about this and they told me...it is possible on a 54, but not on an SM, because of the width of the slot in the aft of the  main mast.
Apparently the slot in the 54 mast is wider than the SM, so the only way an SM can have battens is as we have...short battens that don't overlap.
We inherited these sails from the previous owner, and given that the upwind power comes from the genoa, not the main, I doubt it makes much difference if you have battens or not.
Wholly different story with a slab reefed main...my previous IOR boat had full horizontal battens with a huge roached main and she was a witch to windward, but I'm too old for that now .. that's why I bought an Amel .. confort at sea.!
Cheers
Alan 
Elyse SM437


Alan Leslie
 

Very interesting regardin the full battens....
UI contacted Elvstrom about this and they told me...it is possible on a 54, but not on an SM, because of the width of the slot in the aft of the  main mast.
Apparently the slot in the 54 mast is wider than the SM, so the only way an SM can have battens is as we have...short battens that don't overlap.
We inherited these sails from the previous owner, and given that the upwind power comes from the genoa, not the main, I doubt it makes much difference if you have battens or not.
Wholly different story with a slab reefed main...my previous IOR boat had full horizontal battens with a huge roached main and she was a witch to windward, but I'm too old for that now .. that's why I bought an Amel .. confort at sea.!
Cheers
Alan 
Elyse SM437


Joerg Esdorn
 

Hi Martin, on my boat, the mainsail - original Incidence Sails, without battens - looks still somewhat ok when un-reefed although the draft has moved back quite a bit so I need a lot of halyard tension to move it to the right place.  But as soon as I reef the sail, the cloth seems to bunch up at the leech and the sail becomes very deep with the draft way back.  Very inefficient upwind.  How does your sail look upwind when reefed?  Do the battens prevent the bunching?      

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in Craobh Haven, Scotland 


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hello Joerg,

Since we got these sails we never had any problem furling them downwind or on broad reach. The only problem that can occur when unfurling is that the top of the first batten gets caught in the V1 shroud. To avoid this, we bring the boom closer if necessary. 
I can add that we never have to adjust the vertical angle of the boom to a certain point. Furling in and out always is working fine.

 

From our point of view one of the most important skills a bluewater yacht must have is the ability to reef and furl main (and mizzen) on all courses to the wind. It may sound strange but my captain and I voted for full battened sails because we were (and still are) convinced that it is the most reliable solution using an in mast furling system.

---

Interesting to see your pics, Laurens.

The front battens end clearly above the foot. This certainly makes it much easier to pull out the battens compared to our design. The sails on the pics have fewer battens: 4 and 3 instead of 5 and 4 like ours. The sail cloth seems to be membrane instead of our laminate fabrics (triradial).


Dave_Benjamin
 

As a sailmaker, I hope that your Elvstrom representative is local and can sort out any issues you have in person. When adding battens to a furling mainsail, we are eliminating leech hollow somewhat or completely and in some cases adding some positive roach. I've been very cautious with battens in furling mains because we've seen some fellow cruisers have issues with them. I think the advantage of attempting this on the Amel is that the cavity is generously sized unlike the masts we encounter on common production boats. 

The way Henri designed these boats was with a low aspect ratio sailplan that relies more on the genoa to drive the boat. The performance gains of adding battens to furling mains on an Amel are not the same gains that someone with a high aspect sloop rig would have. Also, the gains are most notable while sailing upwind, which whilst cruising, hopefully we are not doing so much of. 

Many years ago we set up an Oyster furling main with partial battens to eliminate hollow and the boat transited the Southern Ocean without issue. 

Regards, Dave Benjamin


Laurens Vos
 
Edited

As we planned also new sails we looked and asked around a bit. We came in contact with Elvstrom. They did gave us good advice and bring us in contact with an Amel 54 owner who already have their fully battened sails.
He is sailing with them for more as two years and is VERY happy with them. Never had any problems with furling. He’s so much happy with this sails that for his planned trip to Cape Horn he ordered the same new sails but in a more heavy quality. 
This information gave us so much confidence in the Elvstrom quality that we ordered the same sails as well. Only difference is for us not in black but in white.
They will be delivered this spring so we’re very curious if it’s all worth the investment. 
I have attached the pictures and also our quotation.

Laurens Vos
Fun@Sea
A 54 / 72
La Rochelle 


Joerg Esdorn
 

Further to my post above, I spoke with a friend who is in the process of ordering a Hallberg Rassy.  I’m fact, HR offers three choices of furling mainsails, no battens, short vertical battens, and full length vertical battens.  They tell prospective owners that the sail with full length battens should only be furled downwind if the boat is on the tack where the battens are to windward on the sail.  If the boat is on the other tack, the battens may prevent the sail from furling into the mast because they are pressed against the mast and may jam in the groove.  So they recommend a battenless sail for world girdling.  Martin, have you had no issues with furling downwind?  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 


 

Scott,

Incidence Sails, the OEM manufacturer for Amel has issued special pricing for 3 qualities of sails for Super Maramus, 54s, and 55s. I negotiated the special pricing for my clients, and in a previous posting opened the pricing to also members of this group. The discount is 15% for less than a full set or 18% when ordering a full set. As you can see in the table below, a full set of Hydranet sails including the 18% discount is 15,252 euro. This does not include VAT or Freight. For more information on 54s or other models see my website by following this link: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/incidence-sails.html
A54
Genoa Incidence Less 18%
Net Incidence
Version1/Good 5190 4256
Version 2/Better 7870 6453
Version 3/Best 9300 7626
     
Staysail/Trinket    
Version1/Good 1640 1345
Version 2/Better 2230 1829
Version 3/Best 2680 2198
Main    
Version1/Good 2520 2066
Version 2/Better 3570 2927
Version 3/Best 4240 3477
     
Mizzen    
Version1/Good 1490 1222
Version 2/Better 2110 1730
Version 3/Best 2380 1952
Discount is 15% for 1-2 sails ordered and 18% for 3 or more sails ordered
GOOD - CrossCut AP Dacron is a quote for budget-minded Super Maramu owners who would like a Dacron polyester cross-cut sail similar to what Doyle Sails provides.
BETTER - TriRadial Cut Pro Radial Dimension/Polyant Dacron is a quote for those owners wanting a very high-quality Dacron Polyester fiber sailcloth from the German company Dimension-Polyant. It is cut and assembled in a TriRadial configuration. This is a slightly higher quality sail with the same TriRadial construction that your Super Maramu had when new.
BEST - HydraNet TriRadial Cut is a quote for TriRadial Cut HydraNet from the German company Dimension-Polyant. I consider HydraNet from Dimension-Polyant is the best sailcloth and manufacturer in the world...it will not stretch.


On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 11:52 AM Martin Birkhoff <mbirkhoff@...> wrote:
By the way,
Trans-Ocean e.V. is open to everyone. The annual membership fee is 90 euros. So a membership can be well worth. ,-)


Martin Birkhoff
 

By the way,
Trans-Ocean e.V. is open to everyone. The annual membership fee is 90 euros. So a membership can be well worth. ,-)


Martin Birkhoff
 

Scott,

all sails are made of different laminates.

Main 44.2 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-L 320 g/m²
20% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-23 Offshore 450 g/m²

Mizzen 25,0 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-L 320 g/m²
20% Dyneema DYS-07 Offshore 400 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²

Genoa 75.0 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-M 380 g/m²
30% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
40% Dyneema DYS-23 Offshore 450 g/m²

Staysail 21,5 m²:
40% Polyester Sandwich DCX-M 380 g/m²
60% Dyneema DYS-14 Offshore 435 g/m²
The staysail is smaller than the original staysail. 
 
The prices in 2016 were 
Mainsail 6.100 € 
Mizzen 3.750 €
Genoa incl. UV protection 9.150
Jib incl. UV protection 3.050 
each incl. 10% discount and 19% VAT

We got the discount as members of Trans-Ocean e.V., a German Blue Water Association.

Regards
Martin Birkhoff
Mago del Sur - 54#40
currently on shore Worpswede Germany


Joerg Esdorn
 

Let me point out that Elvstrom Sails, who make the sails for Halberg Rassy, has been making these sails with the long battens for what seems like a decade.  All HRs with furling Mains seem the have them as standard.  If anyone has access to the HR forum, maybe it would be possible to get their experience with the system.  Not only should these long battens improve sail shape but also sail longevity since the sail will not flog as much.  


Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle 


Scott SV Tengah
 

Sorry, of course, I meant the cost for the fully battened main and mizzen. Then the Genoa. I presume by "jib", you mean staysail?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Scott SV Tengah
 

Martin,

How much did it cost for your fully battened main, Genoa and mizzen? Is it hydranet?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Martin Birkhoff
 

All the best for 2022 to all Amelians
 
For those who are interested, here a supplement on the subject of fully battened main:
By chance, I spoke to the former owner of the Super Maramu Stenella today. (Sold eight weeks ago.) He had replaced the main and mizzen on his Super Maramu with fully battened sails in 2011. The sailmaker was Beilken. All battens are consistently led to the foot of the sail. As he reported, there have never been any problems with the battened sails when furling, unfurling or reefing over the years! 
 
Regards
Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
Marina di Ragusa, Sicily


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hi Laurens,

1. Until today, we had no problems furling and unfurling the main and mizzen, no matter which angle to the wind the boat was facing and how strong the wind was.


2. We had these concerns too. However, there is enough room in the mast. When fully furled, the mainsail leaves about 1.75 to 2 cm of space between the sail and the mast chamber measured at the bottom of the mast chamber. It should be noted that on Mago del Sur both the main foil and the mizzen foil have a diameter of 35 mm. You should explicitly point this out to Stade if you have a 40 mm profile for the main. In all cases it is an advantage if the foils are reinforced by an additional aluminum element which is inserted in the foil (available by Amel).


3. We cannot answer the question about differences. The old sails had lost their battens and their leeches and aft parts including the leech genoa were no longer standing. We changed all sails at the same time so we could not recognize which effects were caused by the genoa and which by main and mizzen. I beg your pardon, we cannot make a reliable comparison.

4. 
Both the main and the mizzen are equipped with a leech line, which is usually not necessary. (This is different with the gennua, where we have to use it regularly).


5. The negative effects are

  •         The sails are more expensive.
  •         It takes a lot more work to take down the sails, as it is not easy to get the long battens out. At the jetty, we always take the battens out completely and disassemble them into their parts when they are lying on the jetty.
  • If the halyard comes off the sail, you have a problem because the long battens prevent the sail from sinking down completely or from being pulled down. You then have to pull the battens out part by part, which requires a lot of work with the sagged sail. It is therefore important that the halyard and the knot at the head of the sail are in perfect condition and reliable.

Regards

Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
La Línea, Spain


Laurens Vos
 

Hi Martin,

Very interesting and many thanks that you made us aware of the way a sail can be build.
I checked the website of Stade and almost sure I’m going to visit them soon to discuss the possibilities for our 54.
Regarding the furling, you wrote that you never had problems with furling in any wind and any direction you furled the sail. Is that correct ? 
But with the battens all the way down doesn’t get the rolled sail too big for the space inside the mast ? 
Did you experienced a difference in power of the sail or less or helm compared to the sail with the short battens ? 
Do you still need a leech line to prevent slapping ? 
Are there any negative effects to this way of battens in a sail ? 

Best regards 

Laurens Vos 
Fun@Sea - 54#92
La Rochelle 


 

Interesting. None of the 54s I have seen (probably 30-40) have battens this low. Everyone I have seen has battens in about the top 1/3rd to top 1/2 of the sail.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 1:45 PM Martin Birkhoff <mbirkhoff@...> wrote:

Hi,
here a pic I made today. It shows the fourth of five battens of the main. I furled it to a position to demonstrate the slant of the batten. The top of the batten pocket has disapeared in the mast, only the last stitching is visible. At the lower end the batten pocket is 2 cm out of the mast. The longer the batten (first, second and third batten) the bigger this effect.
Hope this pic is helpful.

Regards

Martin

Mago del Sur - 54#40
La Línea, Spain


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hi,
here a pic I made today. It shows the fourth of five battens of the main. I furled it to a position to demonstrate the slant of the batten. The top of the batten pocket has disapeared in the mast, only the last stitching is visible. At the lower end the batten pocket is 2 cm out of the mast. The longer the batten (first, second and third batten) the bigger this effect.
Hope this pic is helpful.

Regards

Martin

Mago del Sur - 54#40
La Línea, Spain


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hi Randall,
here some pics.
The mizzen (2 pics) is unfurled completely. You can see the first batten is in a closer distance to the mast, the space between the next battens is larger. Its not to see that the battens are slightly slanted, but they are. The mizzen is trimmed to go as close to the wind as possible with quite some knots of wind. Otherwise we would release the outhawl of course. 
The main is in its "first" reef meaning the first batten is furled in.  

Regards

Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
La Linea, Spain