Lithium battery costs


Paul Harries
 

Can anyone put the a price on typical USA manufactured and professionally installed lithium system vs order from china diy system?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Hey there

Get the Battleborn batteries with their victron inverter package. Perhaps USD13k for 7.5kw useable through a 5kw inverter.

LifePo4 is the only safe way and Battleborn use very small safe cells that have battery cut offs on each unit to precent overcharge.

Avoid lithium ion of any description imho.

(i have no affiliation to this manufacturer)


Paul Harries
 

I had seen their pricing
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/sailboat-12v-600ah/
I was just wondering how much US based pro install of these was relative to china direct buy and diy install.

Ken on Aquarius did an excellent youtube run down on install some time ago, I know he had a fire, unclear if related to install or not.
My impression is that formal guidance on install process andcomponents is absent. 

As a potential buyer it seems that diy modification of electrical system, even by those who are very well qualified, could subsequently become an insurance headache.

Would be nice if Amel issued some retrospective manufacturer guidance on this issue.


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Jérémy
 

In march this year, I've ordered 68 LiFePo4 cells, 150Ah, in China, to build my new battery pack. I've received them last month, and I'm currently charging/balancing them. It will be 28.8KW (24V/1200Ah), and it cost me 3.430USD, including taxes and delivery to France, from China.

Of course there are many other components involved to make it a full/safe battery pack, including : properly sized wires, bus bars, fuses & fuses holder, contactor (about 250USD), and of course a shunt and a BMS (I choose Batrium, with 4x K9 Cells about 1.500USD)....

I would say, DIY is very time consuming (you have to read and learn a lot...), very slow (I've ordered parts from Australia, US, and China... in a context of a worldwide cargo traffic jam). But, it's wayyy cheaper, and you know exactly how all this works, how to monitor it, etc... and that's probably the main reason I went down this road !


Jérémy
SM#121
Le 04/09/2021 à 17:05, Paul Harries via groups.io a écrit :

Can anyone put the a price on typical USA manufactured and professionally installed lithium system vs order from china diy system?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Jason Rutledge
 

I got 4 of the SOK 12v 206ah batteries, $1029 each.  7 year warranty and good reviews, BMS built in, and tear down videos online.  I looked at the battle born and many others.  I believe 6 can fit in the battery box.
--
Jason Rutledge
SV Liahona
SM 335
Fajardo, Puerto Rico


Billy Newport
 

I had Maine yacht center install 1200ah of lithionics batteries with 1200w of solbian solar, 300a api alternator and 2 x 3kw victron inverter chargers. 90k usd with about half that being labor.

Billy
 


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

That’s an interesting figure – I have been exploring the concept of an Oceanvolt drive for the supermaramu with an 18KW DC generator to provide range only dependent on the diesel tank size. A 40KW motor system with 28kWh lithium batteries and the DC generator + 5K 48/230 inverter and 48/24 V convertor comes in installed at just over 100K euros. There recommendation is that one would not touch the existing battery system but just charge it from the lithium batteries / generator - 230v power would directly from the lithium batteries / generator. At the moment I am not even sure there would be space to install such as system and also if the C drive is compatible, but it has some appeal to it.

 

Andrew

Ronpische SM 472

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Billy Newport via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I had Maine yacht center install 1200ah of lithionics batteries with 1200w of solbian solar, 300a api alternator and 2 x 3kw victron inverter chargers. 90k usd with about half that being labor.

Billy

 


Brent Cameron
 

I’m sorry but I  really don’t get the fascination with installing electric motors on cruising sailboats. Your 40KW motor is 53 HP which is about half the power that your boat came with (assuming your later model Super Maramu had the Yanmar 105HP). Granted you don’t NEED all of that 105HP as there are plenty of Super Maramu owners perfectly happy with their 78 HP Perkins/Volvos which would put out about 40KW at 2400 RPM but I suspect that 40 KW is stretching your ability to get off a lee shore or through some big currents.   You could try it by running your motor at about 1700 RPM. 

The 28Kw/h battery bank could run that 40KW motor at that rate for a grand total of 38 minutes on batteries alone but I very much doubt that your battery bank could support discharging at 1.4C (most Lithium Ion installations restrict to 1.0C and that’s on the extreme end IMHO).  If you also fired up your new 18KW generator, it drops your C rate to less than 1 and you could double your longevity but 76 minutes of power (assuming your batteries were already fully charged AND you starting the genset the instant you turned on the electric motor) is not nearly enough IMHO to satisfy basic seamanship requirements even for just coastal cruising.  

That’s a huge cost to get a significant reduction in capability and I think would dramatically lower the resale value of your fine boat. 

I get the urge to electrify everything but are you really getting that benefit if you have to run a diesel genset at the same time?  It works for cars because they can carry huge battery banks (the Base Tesla model 3 has a 50KW/h battery pack of NCA (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum) cells that are designed to discharge at high C rates unlike the LiFePO4 cells used in boats for safety reasons). Of course that means that they are a lot more susceptible to bursting into flames so not a great idea on your floating home. Also a model 3 car at 60 mph/100 km/h only uses about 0.34kw/h as most of the power is needed to get it moving and they can regenerate that kinetic energy when braking and coasting which can’t be done in a boat - although admittedly you could put a hydro-generator on to help recharge the batteries when sailing - but of course that won’t be of any use when you have to motor.   Still, that 50KWH battery is only good for 151 kms of range according to Tesla’s configurator… they want you to upgrade to the 82KWH battery to get 500kms (300 miles). 

We had a good example of the difficulty of doing this in sailboats with one of our recent guest speakers, the estimable Jimmy Cornell having to give up his attempt to sail across the Atlantic (let alone the world) on his specifically designed and completely solar bedecked Catamaran earlier  this year.  They said that they dramatically underestimated the power consumption and overestimated the generation capabilities- and that’s with a team of sponsors well motivated to make sure of his success.   He’s now going to try again but only after significantly upgrading the solar, hydro generation and efficiency of his consuming equipment.  An Amel can’t carry the same amount of solar as a specifically designed cat and they need more power to move them than a performance cat as well.   

It’s your money but I don’t get it. I guess you’d save a lot of diesel because you’d not be able to motor anywhere anyway. LOL.  If I was that worried about saving carbon, I  think I’d pocket the money and stay on the dock. :-)

Brent

On Sep 5, 2021, 10:10 AM -0400, Andrew & Kate Lamb <andrew@...>, wrote:

That’s an interesting figure – I have been exploring the concept of an Oceanvolt drive for the supermaramu with an 18KW DC generator to provide range only dependent on the diesel tank size. A 40KW motor system with 28kWh lithium batteries and the DC generator + 5K 48/230 inverter and 48/24 V convertor comes in installed at just over 100K euros. There recommendation is that one would not touch the existing battery system but just charge it from the lithium batteries / generator - 230v power would directly from the lithium batteries / generator. At the moment I am not even sure there would be space to install such as system and also if the C drive is compatible, but it has some appeal to it.

 

Andrew

Ronpische SM 472

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Billy Newport via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I had Maine yacht center install 1200ah of lithionics batteries with 1200w of solbian solar, 300a api alternator and 2 x 3kw victron inverter chargers. 90k usd with about half that being labor.

Billy

 


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Brent – you make some very valid points - Andrew

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brent Cameron via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 6:02 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I’m sorry but I  really don’t get the fascination with installing electric motors on cruising sailboats. Your 40KW motor is 53 HP which is about half the power that your boat came with (assuming your later model Super Maramu had the Yanmar 105HP). Granted you don’t NEED all of that 105HP as there are plenty of Super Maramu owners perfectly happy with their 78 HP Perkins/Volvos which would put out about 40KW at 2400 RPM but I suspect that 40 KW is stretching your ability to get off a lee shore or through some big currents.   You could try it by running your motor at about 1700 RPM. 

The 28Kw/h battery bank could run that 40KW motor at that rate for a grand total of 38 minutes on batteries alone but I very much doubt that your battery bank could support discharging at 1.4C (most Lithium Ion installations restrict to 1.0C and that’s on the extreme end IMHO).  If you also fired up your new 18KW generator, it drops your C rate to less than 1 and you could double your longevity but 76 minutes of power (assuming your batteries were already fully charged AND you starting the genset the instant you turned on the electric motor) is not nearly enough IMHO to satisfy basic seamanship requirements even for just coastal cruising.  

That’s a huge cost to get a significant reduction in capability and I think would dramatically lower the resale value of your fine boat. 

I get the urge to electrify everything but are you really getting that benefit if you have to run a diesel genset at the same time?  It works for cars because they can carry huge battery banks (the Base Tesla model 3 has a 50KW/h battery pack of NCA (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum) cells that are designed to discharge at high C rates unlike the LiFePO4 cells used in boats for safety reasons). Of course that means that they are a lot more susceptible to bursting into flames so not a great idea on your floating home. Also a model 3 car at 60 mph/100 km/h only uses about 0.34kw/h as most of the power is needed to get it moving and they can regenerate that kinetic energy when braking and coasting which can’t be done in a boat - although admittedly you could put a hydro-generator on to help recharge the batteries when sailing - but of course that won’t be of any use when you have to motor.   Still, that 50KWH battery is only good for 151 kms of range according to Tesla’s configurator… they want you to upgrade to the 82KWH battery to get 500kms (300 miles). 

We had a good example of the difficulty of doing this in sailboats with one of our recent guest speakers, the estimable Jimmy Cornell having to give up his attempt to sail across the Atlantic (let alone the world) on his specifically designed and completely solar bedecked Catamaran earlier  this year.  They said that they dramatically underestimated the power consumption and overestimated the generation capabilities- and that’s with a team of sponsors well motivated to make sure of his success.   He’s now going to try again but only after significantly upgrading the solar, hydro generation and efficiency of his consuming equipment.  An Amel can’t carry the same amount of solar as a specifically designed cat and they need more power to move them than a performance cat as well.   

It’s your money but I don’t get it. I guess you’d save a lot of diesel because you’d not be able to motor anywhere anyway. LOL.  If I was that worried about saving carbon, I  think I’d pocket the money and stay on the dock. :-)


Brent

On Sep 5, 2021, 10:10 AM -0400, Andrew & Kate Lamb <andrew@...>, wrote:

That’s an interesting figure – I have been exploring the concept of an Oceanvolt drive for the supermaramu with an 18KW DC generator to provide range only dependent on the diesel tank size. A 40KW motor system with 28kWh lithium batteries and the DC generator + 5K 48/230 inverter and 48/24 V convertor comes in installed at just over 100K euros. There recommendation is that one would not touch the existing battery system but just charge it from the lithium batteries / generator - 230v power would directly from the lithium batteries / generator. At the moment I am not even sure there would be space to install such as system and also if the C drive is compatible, but it has some appeal to it.

 

Andrew

Ronpische SM 472

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Billy Newport via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I had Maine yacht center install 1200ah of lithionics batteries with 1200w of solbian solar, 300a api alternator and 2 x 3kw victron inverter chargers. 90k usd with about half that being labor.

Billy

 


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Geo Uhrich
 

I lived this through for the last 4 years.  Don’t do it. I can provide a lot of reasons, but first is to make yourself totally reliant on a generator for propulsion... or a network cable takes down your system...

If anyone wants all the other reasons. Just let me know and give me an email and I will send.

Geo

On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:38 PM Andrew & Kate Lamb <andrew@...> wrote:

Brent – you make some very valid points - Andrew

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brent Cameron via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 6:02 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I’m sorry but I  really don’t get the fascination with installing electric motors on cruising sailboats. Your 40KW motor is 53 HP which is about half the power that your boat came with (assuming your later model Super Maramu had the Yanmar 105HP). Granted you don’t NEED all of that 105HP as there are plenty of Super Maramu owners perfectly happy with their 78 HP Perkins/Volvos which would put out about 40KW at 2400 RPM but I suspect that 40 KW is stretching your ability to get off a lee shore or through some big currents.   You could try it by running your motor at about 1700 RPM. 

The 28Kw/h battery bank could run that 40KW motor at that rate for a grand total of 38 minutes on batteries alone but I very much doubt that your battery bank could support discharging at 1.4C (most Lithium Ion installations restrict to 1.0C and that’s on the extreme end IMHO).  If you also fired up your new 18KW generator, it drops your C rate to less than 1 and you could double your longevity but 76 minutes of power (assuming your batteries were already fully charged AND you starting the genset the instant you turned on the electric motor) is not nearly enough IMHO to satisfy basic seamanship requirements even for just coastal cruising.  

That’s a huge cost to get a significant reduction in capability and I think would dramatically lower the resale value of your fine boat. 

I get the urge to electrify everything but are you really getting that benefit if you have to run a diesel genset at the same time?  It works for cars because they can carry huge battery banks (the Base Tesla model 3 has a 50KW/h battery pack of NCA (Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum) cells that are designed to discharge at high C rates unlike the LiFePO4 cells used in boats for safety reasons). Of course that means that they are a lot more susceptible to bursting into flames so not a great idea on your floating home. Also a model 3 car at 60 mph/100 km/h only uses about 0.34kw/h as most of the power is needed to get it moving and they can regenerate that kinetic energy when braking and coasting which can’t be done in a boat - although admittedly you could put a hydro-generator on to help recharge the batteries when sailing - but of course that won’t be of any use when you have to motor.   Still, that 50KWH battery is only good for 151 kms of range according to Tesla’s configurator… they want you to upgrade to the 82KWH battery to get 500kms (300 miles). 

We had a good example of the difficulty of doing this in sailboats with one of our recent guest speakers, the estimable Jimmy Cornell having to give up his attempt to sail across the Atlantic (let alone the world) on his specifically designed and completely solar bedecked Catamaran earlier  this year.  They said that they dramatically underestimated the power consumption and overestimated the generation capabilities- and that’s with a team of sponsors well motivated to make sure of his success.   He’s now going to try again but only after significantly upgrading the solar, hydro generation and efficiency of his consuming equipment.  An Amel can’t carry the same amount of solar as a specifically designed cat and they need more power to move them than a performance cat as well.   

It’s your money but I don’t get it. I guess you’d save a lot of diesel because you’d not be able to motor anywhere anyway. LOL.  If I was that worried about saving carbon, I  think I’d pocket the money and stay on the dock. :-)


Brent

On Sep 5, 2021, 10:10 AM -0400, Andrew & Kate Lamb <andrew@...>, wrote:

That’s an interesting figure – I have been exploring the concept of an Oceanvolt drive for the supermaramu with an 18KW DC generator to provide range only dependent on the diesel tank size. A 40KW motor system with 28kWh lithium batteries and the DC generator + 5K 48/230 inverter and 48/24 V convertor comes in installed at just over 100K euros. There recommendation is that one would not touch the existing battery system but just charge it from the lithium batteries / generator - 230v power would directly from the lithium batteries / generator. At the moment I am not even sure there would be space to install such as system and also if the C drive is compatible, but it has some appeal to it.

 

Andrew

Ronpische SM 472

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Billy Newport via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I had Maine yacht center install 1200ah of lithionics batteries with 1200w of solbian solar, 300a api alternator and 2 x 3kw victron inverter chargers. 90k usd with about half that being labor.

Billy

 


--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Joerg Esdorn
 

I had 3 Mastervolt MLI5500 installed on my boat by the Mastervolt dealer in Spain.  They were about E5000 a piece.  Add to that installation which in my case included a MV Easyview monitor and connection of Masterbus cables to all chargers etc, reprogramming Wind, Solar and Hydro chargers, changing the inverter to also power the washing machine and water heater, etc.  if I recall correctly that was about E3-4K, which benefited from the relatively low labor rates in Spain.   So around E20K total.  Well worth it in piece of mind.  The system is awesome.  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle
 


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hello Joerg;

 

Do you mind sharing the name of the Mastervolt dealer in Spain you worked with? How was your experience with the dealer?

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joerg Esdorn via groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 11:17 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Lithium battery costs

 

I had 3 Mastervolt MLI5500 installed on my boat by the Mastervolt dealer in Spain.  They were about E5000 a piece.  Add to that installation which in my case included a MV Easyview monitor and connection of Masterbus cables to all chargers etc, reprogramming Wind, Solar and Hydro chargers, changing the inverter to also power the washing machine and water heater, etc.  if I recall correctly that was about E3-4K, which benefited from the relatively low labor rates in Spain.   So around E20K total.  Well worth it in piece of mind.  The system is awesome.  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently in La Rochelle