LLC or Corporate ownership of vessel
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I’m thinking about putting a new boat into an LLC or corporation legal entity. Has anyone done such and run into issues in a foreign port? Do most customs and port authorities understand these documentations? I would think so but maybe not in smaller nations |
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Paul Harries
I have been investing Cayman registration via company for this purpose.
For me possibility of having employed national of any nationality on board at any time was reason for looking into it. Has benefit of UK diplomatic and military support. Epirb and DSC has to go via UK or US though I believe. -- Paul Harries Prospective Amel Buyer |
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Ben, We bought BeBe in here 2nd year. She was owned by a BVI Corporation set up by the owner from Cape Cod. She was BVI Flagged and registered (Defaced Red UK Ensign). To set up the corporation in 2003, cost $696, and as I remember it, the annual maintenance of the corporation was between $400 - $500. My records reflect that the corporation was set up by Astra Penn, Dantrust Limited, 49 Main Street, Tortola, BVI (284) 494 4197, d.penn@.... I hope all of this is accurate, current, and complete. Bill
I have been investing Cayman registration via company for this purpose. |
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Ron Hynes <riffhynes@...>
I acquired my Amel in the Netherlands five years ago. At the time, American insurance was going to cost me an exorbitant amount. I learned that I could insure with an EU company, one of several actually, for about 1/3 of the cost. The catch, however, was that the boat could not be owned by an American. I then formed a British LLC which has owned the boat since this time. I never had difficulties checking in to the UK, France, Spain, Portugal, the Canary Islands, Matinique, the DR, Bahamas and Morocco. The Italian authorities gave me a bit of a hassle, but I don’t believe it was because of ownership issues. It had to do with the form of certification I had. Things have gotten a little more interesting after Brexit but I’m no longer in the EU and not really concerned about it. Naturally I can’t comment on whether you have difficulties in the south pacific or in Southeast Asia or when crossing the Indian ocean, but I guess you won’t. Basically, you are very much like a merchant ship and very few of those are owned by individuals.
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Ron Hynes 954.319.0944 On Sep 7, 2021, at 5:17 PM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
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On the contrary, having the vessel owned by an LLC has many advantages. First, there is the obvious tax advantage. Second, if you are American and you flag and own your vessel outside of the USA, you can obtain insurance where other US flagged vessels can’t. When it comes time to sell the vessel, you can sell the entire corporation to the new owner. This way the new owner gets the insurance, licenses etc. I would never buy a vessel this way, but it is an option. Perhaps the best advantage is the protection of your personal assets should be find yourself liable in an accident or spill of some type. Keep in mind laws change from country to country but all will recognize limited liability.
One of the other reasons we put our Amel into a corporation was survivor benefits. As share holders, we both have ownership. A friend had a lot of trouble when her husband died in a foreign port. She found out the hard way how every country has different laws. The vessel was in his name and they refused to immediately acknowledge their US legal will. The vessel was seized. She had to hire a local lawyer and eventually got control of the vessel so she could sell it.
All port authorities understand corporate owned vessels. If a single super yacht has ever entered their country, then they understand. Every single large yacht is corporate owned. We are BVI owned and flagged and have never had issue with entering.
The cost can vary from country to country. There are big differences. Grand Cayman is one of the most expensive. Some countries require tonnage surveys and vessel surveys. You need to watch for annual fees and filing requirements for the corporation. Also, countries require registration renewals at various times. Some are annually which is a real pain if you plan to sail the globe.
If you have specific questions feel free to private email me.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
From:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347 via groups.io
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Paul Harries
I had suggested this as a topic for Amel meeting to Bill a few weeks ago, problem is with finding a good presenter who knows pros and cons of various countries to register in. Does anyone know such an expert?
-- Paul Harries Prospective Amel Buyer |
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Thanks all. There are a lot of intelligent comments here. It seems I’ll have no issues with a corporate ownership structure.
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Ben Driver On Sep 7, 2021, at 7:58 PM, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries@...> wrote:
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It is not necessarily that simple. Until last year I had my boat owned by an UK corporation which was owned by a HONG KONG Holding which ultimately I own; she was Dutch registered; I hold Dutch passport; but also USA as well as CHINA legal residency. Still several insurance companies were asking about ultimate beneficiary of these corporations. In 1 case I was asked where I file my taxes which is both in USA as well as the NETHERLANDS. As soon as they realize the USA connection they refused my application. Also - it is very possible to avoid or down play my USA connection (f.e.: by using the address of my overseas companies) but I really don't want to run the risk once I have a substantial claim that they investigate and deny coverage under the premises that I didn't fully disclose on my application. T . -------- Original message -------- From: "Mark Erdos via groups.io" <mcerdos@...> Date: 9/7/21 19:46 (GMT-08:00) To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] LLC or Corporate ownership of vessel On the contrary, having the vessel owned by an LLC has many advantages. First, there is the obvious tax advantage. Second, if you are American and you flag and own your vessel outside of the USA, you can obtain insurance where other US flagged vessels can’t. When it comes time to sell the vessel, you can sell the entire corporation to the new owner. This way the new owner gets the insurance, licenses etc. I would never buy a vessel this way, but it is an option. Perhaps the best advantage is the protection of your personal assets should be find yourself liable in an accident or spill of some type. Keep in mind laws change from country to country but all will recognize limited liability.
One of the other reasons we put our Amel into a corporation was survivor benefits. As share holders, we both have ownership. A friend had a lot of trouble when her husband died in a foreign port. She found out the hard way how every country has different laws. The vessel was in his name and they refused to immediately acknowledge their US legal will. The vessel was seized. She had to hire a local lawyer and eventually got control of the vessel so she could sell it.
All port authorities understand corporate owned vessels. If a single super yacht has ever entered their country, then they understand. Every single large yacht is corporate owned. We are BVI owned and flagged and have never had issue with entering.
The cost can vary from country to country. There are big differences. Grand Cayman is one of the most expensive. Some countries require tonnage surveys and vessel surveys. You need to watch for annual fees and filing requirements for the corporation. Also, countries require registration renewals at various times. Some are annually which is a real pain if you plan to sail the globe.
If you have specific questions feel free to private email me.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
From:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Ben and Gayle Super Maramu #347 via groups.io
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Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
Hi Teun, you are right when you say they will "deny coverage under the premises that I didn't fully disclose on my application". That is exactly what they will do. Don't hide things from them. That warning is in their documentation and quite justifiably they will apply it Kind Regards Danny SM 299 Ocean Pearl On 09 September 2021 at 09:44 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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Teun,
I have always been very honest with the insurance company about how the vessel ownership is structured. I have a string of emails where they have approved various address scenarios. Using a corporate address is entirely on the up and up. I was told this is the way most mega-yachts are structured.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
From:
main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On
Behalf Of Teun BAAS
It is not necessarily that simple. Until last year I had my boat owned by an UK corporation which was owned by a HONG KONG Holding which ultimately I own; she was Dutch registered; I hold Dutch passport; but also USA as well as CHINA legal residency. Still several insurance companies were asking about ultimate beneficiary of these corporations.
In 1 case I was asked where I file my taxes which is both in USA as well as the NETHERLANDS. As soon as they realize the USA connection they refused my application.
Also - it is very possible to avoid or down play my USA connection (f.e.: by using the address of my overseas companies) but I really don't want to run the risk once I have a substantial claim that they investigate and deny coverage under the premises that I didn't fully disclose on my application.
T
.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Mark Erdos via groups.io" <mcerdos@...> Date: 9/7/21 19:46 (GMT-08:00) To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] LLC or Corporate ownership of vessel
On the contrary, having the vessel owned by an LLC has many advantages. First, there is the obvious tax advantage. Second, if you are American and you flag and own your vessel outside of the USA, you can obtain insurance where other US flagged vessels can’t. When it comes time to sell the vessel, you can sell the entire corporation to the new owner. This way the new owner gets the insurance, licenses etc. I would never buy a vessel this way, but it is an option. Perhaps the best advantage is the protection of your personal assets should be find yourself liable in an accident or spill of some type. Keep in mind laws change from country to country but all will recognize limited liability.
One of the other reasons we put our Amel into a corporation was survivor benefits. As share holders, we both have ownership. A friend had a lot of trouble when her husband died in a foreign port. She found out the hard way how every country has different laws. The vessel was in his name and they refused to immediately acknowledge their US legal will. The vessel was seized. She had to hire a local lawyer and eventually got control of the vessel so she could sell it.
All port authorities understand corporate owned vessels. If a single super yacht has ever entered their country, then they understand. Every single large yacht is corporate owned. We are BVI owned and flagged and have never had issue with entering.
The cost can vary from country to country. There are big differences. Grand Cayman is one of the most expensive. Some countries require tonnage surveys and vessel surveys. You need to watch for annual fees and filing requirements for the corporation. Also, countries require registration renewals at various times. Some are annually which is a real pain if you plan to sail the globe.
If you have specific questions feel free to private email me.
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
[mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ben and Gayle Super
Maramu #347 via groups.io
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Scott SV Tengah
I have Tengah in a LLC.
Only issue in the last 30+ countries was in Montenegro. They refused entry unless we had a letter from the LLC giving me permission to operate the vessel. We wrote one and they didn't get their bribe. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com |
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I found the Montenegro official to be the "strictest and by-the-book" official out of 53 countries. He insisted on proof of competency, insurance, passports, crew list, registration, and yes, a corporate resolution to operate the vessel. I am surprised that he didn't require the corporate seal on the resolution. That said, I saw an American give him a NJ driver's license, insisting that in NJ the drivers license covers boats. BTW, Montenegro is not the only place that will require a corporate resolution and most will require the corporate seal, and possible notarization. And that official had a 30-day insurance policy to sell you if you arrived without a current insurance policy (helpful or conflicted). Sometimes how an official acts has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the person he saw before you that decides to tell the official how his country and he should operate. This is compounded when the official associates you with the previous person because you both spoke the same language. Bill
On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 6:39 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote: I have Tengah in a LLC. |
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John Babot
Bill, What does/did your "proof of competency" look like? I thought that was for those chartering boats.
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John, This term "proof of competency" is used often and is intended to mean that you have "something" from a government or accredited sailing school certifying your training on a vessel. But what it technically means is what the government using the term intends it to mean. Each country can have different standards. Scott mentioned Montenegro. We have friends who sailed around the world and were refused entry into Montenegro because they did not have "Proof of Competency" paperwork. To your question about the card a charter company gives you, I assume this might work with an official, but also assume that the person who wrote this rule did not intend the charter company card. Judy and I had USCG Captains licenses which were accepted with no questions asked in 58 countries, around the world.  Bill
Bill, What does/did your "proof of competency" look like? I thought that was for those chartering boats. |
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John Clanton
For what it’s worth, I considered corporate ownership when I purchased my boat in 2018, but after weighing the pros and cons, I kept the individual ownership because of the potential issues in non-US waters.
If I had gone the LLC route, I would have created multiple originals of very official looking documents (stamps, notarizations, wax seals, and any other conceivable bling) clearly stating that I was the designated master of the vessel and that I had all authority to act on behalf of the LLC.
If I was only operating in US waters, I wouldn’t think twice about it and would own the vessel in an LLC.
John W. Clanton Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. |
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John Clanton
Prior to accumulating enough sea time for my USCG license, I enrolled in an online RYA Day Skipper course which satisfied the UN Certificate of Competency requirements. There was a one day practical test in order to complete the course, but it was basic sailing and boating skill demonstration. I had quite a nice time doing the online and practical, and did pick up a nugget or two along the way.
I have read that the countries in the Adriatic are more stringent with the Certificate of Competency requirement, although I have not sailed there yet, so cannot provide any firsthand experience. I did not want to risk it, so did the CoC through RYA.
John W. Clanton Disclaimer The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information is strictly prohibited. |
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For “proof of competency” you can take a free Florida boating test online. At the end it prints out a very nice official looking certificate and they mail you a license (with no expiration date) https://www.boatus.org/florida/
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
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Scott SV Tengah
I was only asked for a cert of competency a handful of times. Croatia was the most stringent and I watched an American skipper kick and scream that his state's safety course should be accepted and how he has sailed all the way from the US, etc.
He ended up having the choice between taking a course there for a lot of money or not entering the country. The ICC is the world standard but since the US isn't a signatory to that treaty, none of our courses give us an ICC. Croatia specifically lists the ICC equivalent documents. https://www.croatia-yachting-charter.com/images/documents/acceptable-licences-sailing-croatia.pdf Ostensibly it's for chartering, but I can attest that they apply the rule for entering on your own private vessel. -- Scott 2007 A54 #69 SV Tengah http://www.svtengah.com |
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Mohammad Shirloo
We ran into this issue in Montenegro. The harbor master was unwilling to allow us to “navigate” from the customs dock to our winter berth (about 500 yards away). None of our ASA sailing and US sailing certifications were acceptable. We spent a couple of hours in the harbor master’s office, while she looked on the internet, trying to figure out what the certificates were. It took our agent from Porto Montenegro almost an hour to get the hesitant approval. We were told that when we come back, the next season, if we do not have “something” like the ICC, we would not be allowed to leave the Marina. Another friend on an Amel that was starting his second circumnavigation, ran into the same issue. They ere not interested in hearing how many times he had circled the globe.
ASA now has a certificate that they can issue to all members that have a bare boat chartering certificate. I believe it costs $25 and they mail out. It looks very official and have been accepted in Montenegro and Croatia, at least so far.
Respectfully;
Mohammad and Aty B&B Kokomo Amel 54 #099
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah via groups.io
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 9:37 AM To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] LLC or Corporate ownership of vessel
I was only asked for a cert of competency a handful of times. Croatia was the most stringent and I watched an American skipper kick and scream that his state's safety course should be accepted and how he has sailed all the way from the
US, etc. |
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James Watkins
I have one of these and it works great but have only used it in Croatia.
Best Regards Jim Watkins Act II Maramu hull 185
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Mark Erdos
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 9:14 AM To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] LLC or Corporate ownership of vessel
For “proof of competency” you can take a free Florida boating test online. At the end it prints out a very nice official looking certificate and they mail you a license (with no expiration date) https://www.boatus.org/florida/
With best regards,
Mark
Skipper Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275 Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia www.creampuff.us
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