All that stuff hanging off the stern-- Gel batteries, solar panels and inverter - an experience
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Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
I have waited years to voice my opinion. I have seen many Amels with fabulous solar panel arrays. I really admire them. However, in my experience they pose a HAZARD to the boat.
I think it was 2010 and we were in a hurricane for 36 hours in 60-foot seas in 100 knots of wind. Without fail the boat would be totally submerged by breaking waves to the point that we would have to hold our breath till the water subsided . The first thing I recall seeing were just the masts sticking out of the water with no boat visible. Then the rest of the rest of Kimberlite would pop up. I thought that was cool. This happened 15-20 times during this ordeal.
It takes about 20 seconds for the boat to pop up.
I have always envisioned having an arch causing 4 large holes in the stern deck where the solar panels and the arch were torn out of the hull. Just My opinion.
Here is the article if you are interested. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376 https://www.oceannavigator.com/prepare-for-survival-conditions/
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of David Crisp
A lot of really helpful information has been written and shared about converting to lithium batteries and the benefits thereof (thank you all). Compared to my experience 20 years ago, when I lived aboard my SM for 3 years, lithium batteries with a large inverter and solar panels sounds like paradise. In 2019 I was on the verge of going this route but delays caused by the Covid pandemic caused me to follow a compromise route and to drop the lithium battery element.
My route has been to replace the old Dolphin 100A charger with a Victron 24V/3000/70A Multiplus inverter/charger along with 990W of solar panels (three LG Neon2Black (LG330N1K-V5)) managed by a Victron Smart Solar MPPT 100/50. A Victron VE Smart Bus provides voltage and temperature data to the MPPT. I also replaced the old battery monitor with a Victron BMV-712. The solar panels are mounted above some Simpson electric davits I had installed at the same time. This year the batteries that came with Wilna Grace gave up the ghost and I replaced them with Victron Gel 110AH instead of going over to Lithium.
My cruising plans are to remain in and explore the Mediterranean, spending ~6+months aboard each year. Consequently my demands, and the cost vs. benefit analysis, are perhaps not those of a live aboard round-the-world cruiser.
I’m hopeful that with such shallow cycling the Gel batteries should last 6+ years, not as good a Lithium but not bad. I’ve only had one season’s experience with this setup, but at the moment the only reason I would change to lithium would be to run an induction stove or to run an air conditioner. I’m not ruling out lithium, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind about the benefits; should my cruising plans/needs change I will install lithium in the blink of an eye.
For someone on a limited budget and with my type of cruising profile I would prioritise the key elements in the following order: (1) large solar array. (2) large inverter. (3) lithium batteries.
Attached are some photos of the installation on Wilna Grace and drawings of the solar panel array. From this installation I have had two learnings: -
We had two other mini-projects this year which have also delivered big benefits.
Hope it is helpful.
David Crisp
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Thanks Eric. I rather suspected that you might have an opinion on the matter. :-). Glad to hear it! I hope that none of us ever have to face those conditions. I’m glad you were in an Amel when you did.
Brent
On Oct 21, 2021, 10:18 PM -0400, Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>, wrote:
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Brent Cameron Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Bill Kinney
Eric,
I have read your article several times, and it is really a touchstone for me. The conditions you went through are worse than I have ever had to sail in, although I did get pounded pretty hard (for many days) on a trip back across from Hawaii to California. I saw several times the "submarine boat" you described. It was an educational experience. Especially the time I was working to sort out a problem with the furling gear at the bow when the boat disappeared... We had rail mounted solar panels (folded down) that took a hit from waves hard enough to break stanchions. Fortunately just broken metal, not ripped fiberglass. Another lesson learned. I once expressed an opinion that I thought having a dinghy on davits was a hazard offshore. We have seen a boat limping back to harbor with totally twisted and mangled davits when a wave filled the dinghy hanging there. A very popular internet guru responded that he had an Island Packet 38 with REALLY high freeboard and just could not image a wave large enough to poop his dinghy while it was hanging on davits... I was kind of flabbergasted. As if the ocean cares how good your imagination is... We have decided that an intermediate approach fits our risk/benefit equation. A simple arch with only solar panels. No davits, no other attachments. If we ever really expected to be in serious survival conditions offshore, I'd cut the whole thing away without a second thought. Total cost of replacement, about $8K. Peace of mind: Priceless. I don't worry about it at all with wind, it had no issue with winds of 70 knots in Hurricane Dorian. Waves: A totally different story. If we were ever in a situation where waves were large enough to impact the solar panels in any way I KNOW the structure would be compromised. I know and understand that our choice is not the best from all perspectives. But I know that the value of having a solar system that supplies half of our power needs is significant. Not just from a cost perspective but extending our self sufficiency, and off grid fuel independence is really a major addition to our boat's capabilities. Bill Kinney Sm160, Harmonie Annapolis, MD, USA
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Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
Hi Bill, I like what Ian Jenkins did with his boat . When I am in the Caribbean this season, I hope to be able to have the A similar dodger made with solar panels.
With respect to fuel independence, we can carry 325 gallons all in tanks.
Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Bill Kinney
Eric,
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Ross Hickey & Donna Hammond
There is a lot to be said about good seamanship. All things not secured properly will move in any big sea. This is the reason containers fall off ships. I have also seen containers pushed in by the force of waves.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
We also have a solar arch along with well over a hundred other Amels. Many of which have sailed thousands of sea miles. The only time the solar arch is used with the dinghy hoisted is in sheltered waters otherwise the dinghy is folded and stowed in the lazerette when sailing offshore. When offshore extra tie downs are passed on the solar arch to ensure it is secured well and to limit movement. I too would not hesitate to cut it free if sea state and weather were likely to compromise the safety of our vessel. We are very happy with the solar arch and the self sufficiency it provides us when cruising. Kind regards Ross and Donna SV Intrepid Kiwi
On Friday, October 22, 2021, 7:42 AM, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
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Ross Hickey & Donna Hammond SV Intrepid Kiwi SM2K #356 Currently in Turkey
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Paul Harries
Eric
You mention designing new attachment points for your drogue, could you please elaborate and perhaps share some pictures.
Thanks -- Paul Harries Prospective Amel Buyer
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I do not think it realistic to cut away a solar arch at sea in rough weather. For a start you will only cut it away when you feel that you really have to by which time it is blowing a severe gale and more. How exactly will you cut it away? Angle grinder? You have to be joking… I have a solar arch, there are two feet each side, one is fixed to the toe rail which will not give way and the other to the sloping transom which is a potential weak point.   I have beefed up the backing plate area on the port side as the shore power socket is located near with epoxy and glass. In addition I beefed up the glass where the mizzen back stays are attached both sides. I will observe for any flexing but to really beef it up I thing a foam knee should be glued and glassed between the transom and the hull. With this done and assuming that no dinghy is hoisted I think that in extreme the solar panels may fly but the minimal windage of the naked arch would survive…. Nick Amelia AML54-019 Sailing Turkey
On 23 Oct 2021, at 05:50, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries@...> wrote:
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It seems to me that one could rather easily (and without much more weight) build in or retrofit a rapid disconnect system to detach the solar panels mounted on an arch by connecting them to rails (most are already mounted on rails to fasten to the top arch frame as is) that would then slide into other rails (sort of like drawer slides) mounted to the top of the arch. These would then be secured by locking pins in order to keep them firmly locked in place otherwise. You could very quickly lose the whole panel setup or even set it up so that each panel could slide out independently (and presumably be stored below rather than pitched over the side - which would make it more likely that the owner would take the preventative action early as you don’t need the panels when it’s stormy anyway).
As Nick says, I doubt that even large waves would take out the arch itself (unless it was one of those fibreglass “wing” shaped arches) so detaching the panels seems the quickest way to deal with the potential forces involved in a large storm. With good forecasting available now with satellite pretty much anywhere in the world, I’m guessing you’d have at least 12 hours notice of anything big enough to threaten the panels no matter where you were. I also guess that you could also build in tubes within tubes with locking pins to easily completely detach the arch from their mounting brackets but I strongly suspect that the (presumably well braced) arch itself wouldn’t be much more problematic than the masts or stanchions and could easily survive the 15-20 big waves that Eric suffered in his horrific survival conditions. Amel seemed happy enough with the mounting system for the Simpson Davits on some SM’s and about half of the Amel 54’s and they have a lot more “windage” and leverage than most arches. Of course, you could just weigh the odds and use a spanner and a screw driver to disconnect the entire thing and throw it over the side too…. But I’m guessing the more work/bigger loss, the less likely that someone will make the right decision when the limited time window arrises. In any case, I’m sure this kind of a system could be put together in an afternoon with the right materials at hand and it wouldn’t cost a lot either. Good insurance to get the best of both worlds. I’m with both of you on storing the dingy on davits while passaging…. NFW. Brent
On Oct 22, 2021, 12:45 AM -0400, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>, wrote:
Eric, --
Brent Cameron Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
Paul, I had the stern cleats reinforced when Kimberlite was built. My only issue with the drogue is that the bridle rubs against the backstays. Sometimes this put Kimberlite at about 20 degrees to the oncoming seas. If I tighten one bridle to square up the boat, it starts putting pressure on one of the backstays. We rode out the hurricane with no problems 20 off center. I have thought long and hard how to change the angle of the bridle. My only thought is to move the SSB antenna out of the way and see what the configuration looks like. However, it is way down my list. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Paul Harries via groups.io
Eric You mention designing new attachment points for your drogue, could you please elaborate and perhaps share some pictures. --
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Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
Only breaking waves over the arch will answer the question. The force of the sea is immense. Fair Winds Eric Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 1:29 AM To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] All that stuff hanging off the stern-- Gel batteries, solar panels and inverter - an experience
I do not think it realistic to cut away a solar arch at sea in rough weather. For a start you will only cut it away when you feel that you really have to by which time it is blowing a severe gale and more. How exactly will you cut it away? Angle grinder? You have to be joking…
I have a solar arch, there are two feet each side, one is fixed to the toe rail which will not give way and the other to the sloping transom which is a potential weak point. With this done and assuming that no dinghy is hoisted I think that in extreme the solar panels may fly but the minimal windage of the naked arch would survive…. Nick Amelia AML54-019 Sailing Turkey
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Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
A friend of mine was in a typhoon many years ago in the Pacific. After the typhoon was over the flight deck of his Aircraft Carrier was severely bent.
What do you get when you cross breed King Kong and a Parrot ? I don’t know but when it talks you listen
Same for the ocean.
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2021 1:29 AM To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] All that stuff hanging off the stern-- Gel batteries, solar panels and inverter - an experience
I do not think it realistic to cut away a solar arch at sea in rough weather. For a start you will only cut it away when you feel that you really have to by which time it is blowing a severe gale and more. How exactly will you cut it away? Angle grinder? You have to be joking…
I have a solar arch, there are two feet each side, one is fixed to the toe rail which will not give way and the other to the sloping transom which is a potential weak point. With this done and assuming that no dinghy is hoisted I think that in extreme the solar panels may fly but the minimal windage of the naked arch would survive…. Nick Amelia AML54-019 Sailing Turkey
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Paul Harries
Such a dodger is a logical solution.
Has anyone tried incorporating the panels in such a way so as to produce a heatsink? An Aluminum dodger roof might be one solution as it would make a decent heat sink for cooling. Another option would be to consider a low flow water cooling system on the panel underside, far more complicated. From what I have read in the absence of panel cooling power generation would be compromised, please correct any stupid misconceptions I have. -- Paul Harries Prospective Amel Buyer
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I have beefed up the backing plate area on the port side as the shore power socket is located near with epoxy and glass.
In addition I beefed up the glass where the mizzen back stays are attached both sides.
I will observe for any flexing but to really beef it up I thing a foam knee should be glued and glassed between the transom and the hull. ![r/WarshipPorn - USS Hornet's Flight Deck is bent 90 degrees over the bows after Typhoon Halsey [4551 x 3551]](https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/groupsioattachments/29189/86503987/60738/0?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJECNKOVMCCU3ATNQ&Expires=1653541925&Signature=1M2LvtVraIV5Ccuq47h%2F04uW%2Bqc%3D)
I have beefed up the backing plate area on the port side as the shore power socket is located near with epoxy and glass.
In addition I beefed up the glass where the mizzen back stays are attached both sides.
I will observe for any flexing but to really beef it up I thing a foam knee should be glued and glassed between the transom and the hull.