New sails [cross-cut * Nautosphere VOYAGER v tri-radial HydraNet]


James Alton
 

David,

  Your cruising grounds sound splendid, enjoy!  I wanted to add a bit more about why I decided to go with crosscut Hydranet instead of going with the Tri-radial.  First I want to agree with Bill Kinney that from design standpoint the Tri-radial construction makes sense because the fibers are better aligned with the loads.  Bill also makes the point about there being more seams with the Tri-radial but actually it seems to me that there are a LOT more seams and many of them run in a near vertical orientation whereas with the crosscut the seams are mostly fore and aft.  Each seam represents a thicker/stiffer area in the sail which increases the furled diameter and is going to somewhat increase the force required to furl and unfurl a main or mizzen.  Also near vertical seams won't slide as easily across the plastic lip of the mast extrusion opening as fore/aft seams.  I personally like the fact that with my new furled main and mizzen that I can easily slide a finger in between the sail and the mast cavity. With my old Dacron sails there was even more room.   I have heard it said many times on this board that one of the great things that Amel did when they designed the furling systems on our boats was to provide a nice large mast cavity which essentially eliminates jams when furling.  I can say that with my original Dacron cross cut main and mizzen that even with some furling mistakes that we have never had a jam and I attribute that to the small furled diameter of the original crosscut sails and the large amount of room remaining in the mast cavity.  So the Tri- radial design makes perfect sense to me, battens can add area, sail shape and performance but with just the two of us making long passages, the reliability of the furling is of more importance to us.  So this is the reason we are staying with the original Amel sail design though I understand that it won't be for everyone.  Best of luck in making the best decision for you.

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno 
Maramu #220


-----Original Message-----
From: David Vogel <david.vogel@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jan 18, 2022 4:59 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New sails [cross-cut * Nautosphere VOYAGER v tri-radial HydraNet]

Hi all,

Thanks to you all for your answers and additional inputs – all very good info.

We’re still considering our options, and will do some cruising up and down the East coast of the NZ North Islands while we deliberate.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee
Whangarei, NZ



On 7/12/21, 3:58 pm, "David Vogel" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of david.vogel@...> wrote:

    Greetings all,
   
    After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements.  Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection.  Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years).  Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.
   
    We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future.  Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
    Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two.  The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC.  The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature.  The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing).  This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us.  It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years.  Conclusion: no laminates for us.
   
    Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet.  I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy.  Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems.  Which leads me to ...
   
    QUESTION 1:
    Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years?  The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).
   
    ===
    Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric.  But not easy to re-cut.  Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item.  (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.)  But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done. 
   
    So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.
   
    Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT.  Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this.  But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail.  Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile.  However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth.  Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.
   
    Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of.  It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema).  Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut.  It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines.  A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity.  And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost.  In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out.  Which leads me to ...
   
    QUESTION 2:
    Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.
   
    QUESTION 3:
    Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?
   
    Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.
   
    David
    SM#396, Perigee
    On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
    Whangarei, New Zealand
   
   
   
   
   
   








David Vogel
 

Hi all,

Thanks to you all for your answers and additional inputs – all very good info.

We’re still considering our options, and will do some cruising up and down the East coast of the NZ North Islands while we deliberate.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee
Whangarei, NZ

On 7/12/21, 3:58 pm, "David Vogel" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io on behalf of david.vogel@westnet.com.au> wrote:

Greetings all,

After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements. Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection. Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years). Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.

We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future. Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two. The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC. The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature. The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing). This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us. It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years. Conclusion: no laminates for us.

Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet. I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy. Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 1:
Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years? The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).

===
Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric. But not easy to re-cut. Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item. (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.) But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done.

So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.

Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT. Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this. But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail. Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile. However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth. Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.

Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of. It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema). Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut. It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines. A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity. And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost. In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.

QUESTION 3:
Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?

Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.

David
SM#396, Perigee
On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
Whangarei, New Zealand


Bill Kinney
 

Hi Dave,

Hope you are doing well!  

Lots of complex questions...

If you go with a hybrid fabric that is designed for a crosscut sail, the difference between the cross cut and the triradial will be small, but still real. I very much doubt anybody has real data, just opinions.  There is a lot of confusion between the short term shape stability of the sail, long term shape retention, and just the mechanical strength of the sail. 

The triradial cut will have much better shape stability under load than the crosscut.  On the down side, since they are almost all made with single stitched seams, they take a bit more maintenance.  Since the seams are now parallel to the force, they tend not to blow out, but they are still subject to chafe and occasionally need to be restitched.  

Certainly the triradial cuts for both genoa and main have proven themselves as suitable for furling.  I would NOT step up the weight of the sailcloth above the original.  That will just compromise the light wind performance for no real benefit.  I don't know of anybody who has torn out sailcloth of the recommended weight.  Failures are almost always seam failures that can be prevented by inspection and repair before failure.

Sails of any material (except laminates!) will lose shape long before they fail mechanically. I very much doubt that ANY sail after 25,000 miles of tropical cruising will be "like new" in performance. Genoas can be nursed along--at a significant performance cost, but older stretched out mains and mizzens will start to give you furling problems.

The advice we got from our sailmaker was to go with radial cut for performance, and use Dimension Polyant ProRadial fabric at about a 50% savings over HydraNet.  His opinion was that the ProRadial would show similar lifespan, and would have a bit less short term shape stability.  In his opinion, the Hydranet would be his first recommendation for a racing boat that didn't go with laminate, but he felt the benefits for a cruising boat were minimal. That's the direction we went, and have been very happy with them.  They were a dramatic improvement over the dacron cross cut sails the previous owner had installed.  Would we get 50% more life if we had gone with Hydranet?  We'll never know.

Our cross cut mizzen from the previous owner (also dacron)  was baggy enough that furling was getting fussy.

By far the most important thing is to be sure that the sailmaker either knows what an Amel sail is supposed to look like, or carefully copies what is extant.


James Alton
 

Nick and all,

   Q-sails delivered my new Hydranet main and Genoa today.   Both sails fit well and the workmanship looks excellent. I was charged exactly the amount in the original quote with the exception of a small 70 Euro delivery fee to Marmaris, Turkey.  The original agreement was for us to sail Sueno to Izmir so an added delivery charge was to be expected.  The pricing was very good and my sails were delivered on time.  I was told a bit about the supply chain issues which can be a big problem when it comes to delivery times on some sails.  In my case, I wanted to keep the original Amel crosscut sail layout and the Hydranet crosscut fabric was available.  The Hydranet Tri-radial material  for instance is in high demand and production is very limited so I would urge patience if that is the material your sails will be built of.  Keep in mind that Q-sails does not manufacture sail cloth and they cannot build sails until they have the materials.  These two new sails now give me a complete matching set of Hydranet sails from Q-sails since Q-sails built me a really nice Mizzen back in 2018. I learned today that Q-sails built almost 2000 new sails last year, I had no idea that they were that large of an operation.  I will be going back to them for a mizzen balloner later this year.
   
   We are really enjoying Turkey...

Best,
James Alton
SV Sueno 
Maramu #220


-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Dec 7, 2021 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New sails [cross-cut * Nautosphere VOYAGER v tri-radial HydraNet]

Hi David,

I bought Amelia an Amel 54 (2006) in 2017. She came with the original Hydranet sails,  has sailed two transatlantic and a fair bit of general cruising, including some extremely windy weather in Greece.  They have lasted very well.  Only now am I thinking that a new mainsail is a good idea. Mostly because of the fact that it is battened and is getting tricky to furl…..I would not consider any other sail material…..

Thus have ordered a new Hydranet mainsail from Q sails in Turkey. It has been completed and is waiting for my return to Turkey in the spring. I decided to order it without the vertical battens…..As a matter of courtesy to Q sails, they quoted a competitive price and at all times kept me informed of a slight delay in the supply of the material from Germany due to supply problems further up the chain. The sail was ready two weeks later than scheduled….no big deal. 

It will be interesting to lay the new on top of the old one to see just how much area I lose. If I am happy then I will get a new mizzen and genoa from them.

My penny’s worth

Nick

S/Y Amelia
AML 54-019 Leros



On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:41, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I will give you my opinion regarding QUESTION 1:
A54s came with HydraNet sailcloth made by Dimension Polyant, Germany. They were constructed in a TriRadial pattern and had vertical battens. The early 54 HydraNet sails were made by Deme Sails, and later were made by Incidence Sails. I have seen numerous 54s from early (2005) to late model 54s. I have not seen HydraNet "lose its dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy." 

I have seen serious damage to HydraNet caused by jamming and chafing of the mainsail vertical battens. Judy and I purchased HydraNet sails in a TriRadial construction in 2012. We experienced none of what you mentioned and I believe that the current owner of BeBe is still satisfied with the sails. HydraNet in a TriRadial construction will cost about 20-50% more than a high-quality Dacron Hybrid (like Dimension Polyant ProRadial) in a TriRadial construction. I believe that you will get far more than 50% life from HydraNet. However, you should get significantly more life from sails made from ProRadial in a TriRadial construction versus Crosscut Dacron sails. Crosscut construction has comparatively large pieces of sailcloth which because of their size, stretching will cause deformity and reduction in performance of the sail beginning at about 5 years. I believe laminates are not for cruising boats. Most sailcloth manufacturers will tell you to expect delamination in 5 years or less.

I recommend that you consider the 3 qualities of sails offered by Incidence Sails (Amel OEM Sailmaker). I negotiated an 18% discount when you order a full set, or 15% when ordering less than a full set. The prices in the following brochure are before the above discounts. Reduce the prices in the brochure by the appropriate discount. Each quality in this brochure is worthwhile, but do not expect the beginning quality to perform as long as the best quality.


If owners of other Amel models are interested in the Incidence Sail information:


Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
  
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:14 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
Hello David,

My sails are North Sails 3Di Nordam.  A bit more expensive than others but looking and performing great at the 2 year mark.

Whatever your choice other than a “fabricated” sail, I can certify that I’ll pass you with a considerable rate of overtake :-)


Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, Opua NZ




> On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:58, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements.  Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection.  Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years).  Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.
> 
> We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future.  Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
> Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two.  The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC.   The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature.  The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing).  This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us.  It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years.  Conclusion: no laminates for us.
> 
> Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet.  I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy.  Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems.  Which leads me to ...
> 
> QUESTION 1:
> Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years?  The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).
> 
> ===
> Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric.  But not easy to re-cut.  Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item.  (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.)  But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done.  
> 
> So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.
> 
> Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT.  Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this.  But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail.  Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile.  However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth.  Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.
> 
> Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of.  It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema).  Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut.  It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines.  A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity.  And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost.  In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out.  Which leads me to ...
> 
> QUESTION 2:
> Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.
> 
> QUESTION 3:
> Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?
> 
> Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.
> 
> David
> SM#396, Perigee
> On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
> Whangarei, New Zealand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 








David Vogel
 

Hi Bill,

 

Many thanks for that add – all good info, and well worth adding into our comparative spreadsheet.

 

Best,

 

David

 

 

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Rouse <brouse@...>

Reply-To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>

Date: Wednesday, 8 December 2021 at 4:41 am

To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New sails [cross-cut * Nautosphere VOYAGER v tri-radial HydraNet]

 

I will give you my opinion regarding QUESTION 1:

A54s came with HydraNet sailcloth made by Dimension Polyant, Germany. They were constructed in a TriRadial pattern and had vertical battens. The early 54 HydraNet sails were made by Deme Sails, and later were made by Incidence Sails. I have seen numerous 54s from early (2005) to late model 54s. I have not seen HydraNet "lose its dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy." 

 

I have seen serious damage to HydraNet caused by jamming and chafing of the mainsail vertical battens. Judy and I purchased HydraNet sails in a TriRadial construction in 2012. We experienced none of what you mentioned and I believe that the current owner of BeBe is still satisfied with the sails. HydraNet in a TriRadial construction will cost about 20-50% more than a high-quality Dacron Hybrid (like Dimension Polyant ProRadial) in a TriRadial construction. I believe that you will get far more than 50% life from HydraNet. However, you should get significantly more life from sails made from ProRadial in a TriRadial construction versus Crosscut Dacron sails. Crosscut construction has comparatively large pieces of sailcloth which because of their size, stretching will cause deformity and reduction in performance of the sail beginning at about 5 years. I believe laminates are not for cruising boats. Most sailcloth manufacturers will tell you to expect delamination in 5 years or less.

 

I recommend that you consider the 3 qualities of sails offered by Incidence Sails (Amel OEM Sailmaker). I negotiated an 18% discount when you order a full set, or 15% when ordering less than a full set. The prices in the following brochure are before the above discounts. Reduce the prices in the brochure by the appropriate discount. Each quality in this brochure is worthwhile, but do not expect the beginning quality to perform as long as the best quality.

 

 Amel Super Maramu-2021.pdf

 

If owners of other Amel models are interested in the Incidence Sail information:

 Amel 55-2021.pdf

 

 Amel 54-2021.pdf

Bill

 

 

 

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...

Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

Website: www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 

View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:14 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:

Hello David,

 

My sails are North Sails 3Di Nordam.  A bit more expensive than others but looking and performing great at the 2 year mark.

 

Whatever your choice other than a “fabricated” sail, I can certify that I’ll pass you with a considerable rate of overtake :-)

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, Opua NZ

 

 

 

 

> On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:58, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

>

> Greetings all,

>

> After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements.  Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection.  Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years).  Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.

>

> We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future.  Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.

> Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two.  The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC.   The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature.  The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing).  This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us.  It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years.  Conclusion: no laminates for us.

>

> Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet.  I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy.  Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems.  Which leads me to ...

>

> QUESTION 1:

> Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years?  The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).

>

> ===

> Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric.  But not easy to re-cut.  Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item.  (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.)  But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done. 

>

> So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.

>

> Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT.  Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this.  But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail.  Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile.  However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth.  Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.

>

> Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of.  It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema).  Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut.  It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines.  A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity.  And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost.  In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out.  Which leads me to ...

>

> QUESTION 2:

> Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.

>

> QUESTION 3:

> Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?

>

> Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.

>

> David

> SM#396, Perigee

> On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina

> Whangarei, New Zealand

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 


Nick Newington
 

Hi David,

I bought Amelia an Amel 54 (2006) in 2017. She came with the original Hydranet sails,  has sailed two transatlantic and a fair bit of general cruising, including some extremely windy weather in Greece.  They have lasted very well.  Only now am I thinking that a new mainsail is a good idea. Mostly because of the fact that it is battened and is getting tricky to furl…..I would not consider any other sail material…..

Thus have ordered a new Hydranet mainsail from Q sails in Turkey. It has been completed and is waiting for my return to Turkey in the spring. I decided to order it without the vertical battens…..As a matter of courtesy to Q sails, they quoted a competitive price and at all times kept me informed of a slight delay in the supply of the material from Germany due to supply problems further up the chain. The sail was ready two weeks later than scheduled….no big deal. 

It will be interesting to lay the new on top of the old one to see just how much area I lose. If I am happy then I will get a new mizzen and genoa from them.

My penny’s worth

Nick

S/Y Amelia
AML 54-019 Leros



On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:41, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

I will give you my opinion regarding QUESTION 1:
A54s came with HydraNet sailcloth made by Dimension Polyant, Germany. They were constructed in a TriRadial pattern and had vertical battens. The early 54 HydraNet sails were made by Deme Sails, and later were made by Incidence Sails. I have seen numerous 54s from early (2005) to late model 54s. I have not seen HydraNet "lose its dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy." 

I have seen serious damage to HydraNet caused by jamming and chafing of the mainsail vertical battens. Judy and I purchased HydraNet sails in a TriRadial construction in 2012. We experienced none of what you mentioned and I believe that the current owner of BeBe is still satisfied with the sails. HydraNet in a TriRadial construction will cost about 20-50% more than a high-quality Dacron Hybrid (like Dimension Polyant ProRadial) in a TriRadial construction. I believe that you will get far more than 50% life from HydraNet. However, you should get significantly more life from sails made from ProRadial in a TriRadial construction versus Crosscut Dacron sails. Crosscut construction has comparatively large pieces of sailcloth which because of their size, stretching will cause deformity and reduction in performance of the sail beginning at about 5 years. I believe laminates are not for cruising boats. Most sailcloth manufacturers will tell you to expect delamination in 5 years or less.

I recommend that you consider the 3 qualities of sails offered by Incidence Sails (Amel OEM Sailmaker). I negotiated an 18% discount when you order a full set, or 15% when ordering less than a full set. The prices in the following brochure are before the above discounts. Reduce the prices in the brochure by the appropriate discount. Each quality in this brochure is worthwhile, but do not expect the beginning quality to perform as long as the best quality.


If owners of other Amel models are interested in the Incidence Sail information:


Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
  
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:14 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
Hello David,

My sails are North Sails 3Di Nordam.  A bit more expensive than others but looking and performing great at the 2 year mark.

Whatever your choice other than a “fabricated” sail, I can certify that I’ll pass you with a considerable rate of overtake :-)


Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, Opua NZ




> On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:58, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements.  Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection.  Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years).  Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.
> 
> We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future.  Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
> Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two.  The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC.   The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature.  The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing).  This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us.  It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years.  Conclusion: no laminates for us.
> 
> Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet.  I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy.  Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems.  Which leads me to ...
> 
> QUESTION 1:
> Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years?  The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).
> 
> ===
> Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric.  But not easy to re-cut.  Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item.  (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.)  But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done.  
> 
> So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.
> 
> Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT.  Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this.  But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail.  Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile.  However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth.  Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.
> 
> Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of.  It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema).  Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut.  It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines.  A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity.  And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost.  In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out.  Which leads me to ...
> 
> QUESTION 2:
> Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.
> 
> QUESTION 3:
> Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?
> 
> Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.
> 
> David
> SM#396, Perigee
> On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
> Whangarei, New Zealand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 








 

I will give you my opinion regarding QUESTION 1:
A54s came with HydraNet sailcloth made by Dimension Polyant, Germany. They were constructed in a TriRadial pattern and had vertical battens. The early 54 HydraNet sails were made by Deme Sails, and later were made by Incidence Sails. I have seen numerous 54s from early (2005) to late model 54s. I have not seen HydraNet "lose its dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy." 

I have seen serious damage to HydraNet caused by jamming and chafing of the mainsail vertical battens. Judy and I purchased HydraNet sails in a TriRadial construction in 2012. We experienced none of what you mentioned and I believe that the current owner of BeBe is still satisfied with the sails. HydraNet in a TriRadial construction will cost about 20-50% more than a high-quality Dacron Hybrid (like Dimension Polyant ProRadial) in a TriRadial construction. I believe that you will get far more than 50% life from HydraNet. However, you should get significantly more life from sails made from ProRadial in a TriRadial construction versus Crosscut Dacron sails. Crosscut construction has comparatively large pieces of sailcloth which because of their size, stretching will cause deformity and reduction in performance of the sail beginning at about 5 years. I believe laminates are not for cruising boats. Most sailcloth manufacturers will tell you to expect delamination in 5 years or less.

I recommend that you consider the 3 qualities of sails offered by Incidence Sails (Amel OEM Sailmaker). I negotiated an 18% discount when you order a full set, or 15% when ordering less than a full set. The prices in the following brochure are before the above discounts. Reduce the prices in the brochure by the appropriate discount. Each quality in this brochure is worthwhile, but do not expect the beginning quality to perform as long as the best quality.


If owners of other Amel models are interested in the Incidence Sail information:


Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:14 PM Germain Jean-Pierre <jp.germain45@...> wrote:
Hello David,

My sails are North Sails 3Di Nordam.  A bit more expensive than others but looking and performing great at the 2 year mark.

Whatever your choice other than a “fabricated” sail, I can certify that I’ll pass you with a considerable rate of overtake :-)


Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, Opua NZ




> On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:58, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings all,
>
> After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements.  Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection.  Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years).  Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.
>
> We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future.  Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
> Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two.  The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC.   The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature.  The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing).  This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us.  It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years.  Conclusion: no laminates for us.
>
> Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet.  I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy.  Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems.  Which leads me to ...
>
> QUESTION 1:
> Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years?  The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).
>
> ===
> Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric.  But not easy to re-cut.  Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item.  (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.)  But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done. 
>
> So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.
>
> Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT.  Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this.  But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail.  Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile.  However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth.  Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.
>
> Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of.  It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema).  Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut.  It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines.  A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity.  And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost.  In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out.  Which leads me to ...
>
> QUESTION 2:
> Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.
>
> QUESTION 3:
> Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?
>
> Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.
>
> David
> SM#396, Perigee
> On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
> Whangarei, New Zealand
>
>
>
>
>







Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hello David,

My sails are North Sails 3Di Nordam. A bit more expensive than others but looking and performing great at the 2 year mark.

Whatever your choice other than a “fabricated” sail, I can certify that I’ll pass you with a considerable rate of overtake :-)


Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007, Opua NZ

On 7 Dec 2021, at 15:58, David Vogel <david.vogel@westnet.com.au> wrote:

Greetings all,

After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements. Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection. Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years). Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.

We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future. Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two. The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC. The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature. The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing). This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us. It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years. Conclusion: no laminates for us.

Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet. I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy. Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 1:
Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years? The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).

===
Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric. But not easy to re-cut. Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item. (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.) But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done.

So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.

Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT. Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this. But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail. Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile. However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth. Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.

Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of. It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema). Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut. It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines. A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity. And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost. In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.

QUESTION 3:
Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?

Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.

David
SM#396, Perigee
On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
Whangarei, New Zealand





David Vogel
 

Greetings all,

After 5 years and ~25,000nm, our sails are starting to show their age, and so we are now scoping replacements. Mainly UV-damage to the leech area of the main and mizzen, the main- and mizzen-sails that were on the boat at purchase had no UV-protection. Which (we have discovered) is an oversight that we should have recognised and had corrected early on, especially once we started sailing full-time in the tropics (where we have now been continuously for >4 years). Being tri-radial cut, it is not so easy to re-cut the sail/s to eliminate the compromised fabric, which is a shame because, apart from the outer 30cm, the remaining fabric is still sound.

We will be continuing to cruise in the tropics for the foreseeable future. Meaning, that laminates are out of consideration.
Explanation: we have seen too many cruisers (and heard even more stories) of those paying for expensive state-of-the-art so-called "cruising laminates", only to have them start to de-laminate after only a season or two. The cause, seen more often in the tropics, seems to be that the laminating manufacturing process used to sandwich the various fabrics together, uses heat to melt and/or cure the glue, and the temperatures used are deliberately kept low in order to protect the fabric from thermal damage during manufacture, being only slightly higher than 100ºC. The in-mast temperatures reached when sails are furled, especially in the tropics, approaches or exceeds this temperature. The situation is, reportedly, worse with in-mast furling systems (as opposed to slab-reefing). This is as explained by several long-term cruising sailors with vastly more experience than us. It makes sense, and aligns with what we have seen over the past few years. Conclusion: no laminates for us.

Which leaves us with more conventional dacron-based woven sail-cloth, including hybrids that utilise high-modulus fibers such as "Ultra-PE" (Ultra-Polyethylene, such as Spectra or Dyneema yarns), which is introduced in order to improve strength and shape stability - once such sailcloth being HydraNet. I have heard that HydraNet starts to lose it's dimensional stability after a few years (maybe as short as 3-4 years), firstly becoming soft to handle, and then baggy. Which creates problems firstly for sail performance, and then also for in-mast furling systems. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 1:
Does anyone have experience with Hydranet sails beyond 5-7 years? The use-case here being full-time live-aboard cruising, meaning, permanently rigged (not removed for the off season, nor on-anchor, as we have to ready to sail-away at a moments notice; and we generally avoid marinas, so the sails are on 365 days a year); mileage: 3,000 to 5,000nm a year, all-weather blue-water passage-making in the topical (hotter) and mid-latitudes (greater likelihood of encountering stronger than gale-force).

===
Next, the cut of the sail ::: traditional best practice within the AMEL community is to use a TRI-RADIAL cut - in addition to aligning the high-modulus fibres to the load (mainly vertically, roughly parallel to the leech, radiating from the head, tack and clew), this allows the use of differing weight fabric around the sail - heavier at the foot and leech where there are greater loads for fully-unfurled conditions, and needing to bear a greater load in stronger wind-condition when the sail is partially furled; and lighter sailcloth in the luff areas, less loading under fully unfurled conditions, and less likely to be exposed to high winds (because it should furled away) that would permanently deform a lighter fabric. But not easy to re-cut. Meaning that once a sail is 'blown' and starts to deform, or suffers UV-degradation along the leech, it largely becomes a throw-away item. (Proper UV protection in the first place would avoid this, either the paint-on solutions or extra covering such as an extra layer of sailcloth, or Sunbrella or, perhaps preferentially, the lighter WeatherMax.) But the outcome is the same, once UV damaged such that the strength of the outer sailcloth is degraded, even if the rest of the sail-cloth is sound, there is not much that can be done.

So, I have now questions about useful life of Tri-Radial HydraNet sails - especially if/as it starts to age, and becomes soft &/or baggy, thereby potentially introducing problems with our in-mast furlers. As a consequence of which I am now starting to look at other contemporary alternatives.

Sail construction --> CROSS-CUT. Normally, due to the conventional 'best practice' within the AMEL community, I would not consider this. But there are advantages, it would seem, with cross-cut sails with respect to the 'furl-ability' of the sail. Specifically, because the nearly horizontal seams spiral up the mast as the sail is furled, and hence do not overlap during furling (as is the case for a tri-radial cut sail), cross-cut sails can accommodate a heavier cloth within a given mast profile. However, cross-cut sails do not have the advantage of being able to use heavier cloth in areas of greater load, as is the case for tri-radials - each cross-cut fore-to-aft panel uses the same-weight sail-cloth. Offset against the use of a heavier cloth across all the sail.

Type of fabric: "Nautosphere VOYAGER" is a fabric we have just heard of. It is a hybrid fabric (that is, dacron base incorporating high-modulus yarn, in this case, dyneema). Downside, it is not suitable for tri-radial construction - only for cross-cut. It's claim to fame is that the dyneema threads are woven across the bolt of fabric (that is, along the weft), meaning that the strength and dimensional stability of a cross-cut sail built using this fabric will be roughly vertical - that is, approximately parallel to the leech, which is in alignment with the primary load lines. A cross-cut sail made of this fabric can be made of heavier cloth (due to the better furl-ability), meaning greater strength initially and, all other things being equal, greater longevity. And, being a simple cross-cut, simpler construction with a lesser number of panels (and seams, than tri-radial), meaning reduced labour cost. In addition, UV damage at the leech can be more easily re-cut out. Which leads me to ...

QUESTION 2:
Does anyone have experience in cross-cut sails for the main &/or mizzen for the in-mast furling AMELs, and especially the Super Maramu.

QUESTION 3:
Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, "Nautosphere VOYAGER" fabric?

Thank you, in anticipation, for your shared insights and knowledge.

David
SM#396, Perigee
On-the-hard, Riverside Drive Marina
Whangarei, New Zealand