STANDING RIGGING OTHER THAN ACMO


Chip Beaman
 

Amel Friends,
I am replacing the standing rigging on my 2004 SM2K. I very much want to replace with Acmo, however due to shipping, COVID, lunar cycle, price of tea in China blah,blah,blah. Acmo is unable to ship to Hawaii.
My question to you all is.. what are the exact problems you have ran into when using rigging other than Acmo. For example I understand the forestay turnbuckle is a challenge. What other issues will I run into?? I keep reading about folks having issues however I’m struggling with, what those exact issues are.

I would like to put together a comprehensive list in order to mitigate any stoppages or unwanted modifications.

I do have Bills wonderful book (I can’t imagine not having it) it provides great detail on doing the replacement with Acmo but nothing really on using other companies.

Thank you all for any info you may provide.

CB
SM2K #430
Hawaii


Paul Osterberg
 

I replaced my standing rigg this spring.
Wire from Kos (south Korea, one of the largest manufacturer of rigging wire, same spec as ACMO) Terminals from ACMO, and turnbuckles from Selden, price just below 8000 euro, including stepping the masts on and off. The job was done in Portimao, Portugal
Paul on SY Kerpa AM#259


Bill Kinney
 

Chip,

There are a couple issues with using non-ACMO parts.  None of them are insurmountable, but they need to be understood.  In a perfect world, inch and metric parts would be available everywhere, and there would be no supply chain issues.  If only.

First, is the turnbuckle under the genoa furler.  This is a bespoke part from Amel, much shorter than any stock product.  You have two choices:  Reuse the old one, or have a new one made to fit.  One issue with reusing the old one is that the threads might then not match the new studs.  This might lead to a very unpleasant surprise when you go to put everything back together.  Reusing this bronze part is likely not an issue--once.  But it should be replaced at some point.

It is also very hard to source all the parts in a way that will fit all the existing holes for the clevis pins.  Do not allow the use of clevis pins smaller than original, this results in point loading and unacceptable wear on the chainplates and mast tangs.  If the pins need to change, go UP a size and ream out the holes to match the diameter of the pins exactly. Note that this is HARD to do without specialized tools  Just a simple drill bit is not going to work well. It is POSSIBLE to shim the holes and use a clevis pin a fraction smaller, but that is also not simple. Sorting out all the fitting issues is complex, and a big function of what parts are locally available. Especially true if you want to go to mechanical terminals instead of swages.  The availability of sizes is more limited.

The problem with changing the size of these pins is: it is irreversible.  Once done, the ACMO clevis pins will be too small and should not be used. Again, not necessarily a big deal, but something to be aware of.

How these issues are handled is what separates "Amel-Aware" riggers from the rest of the pack.  I know Nance and Underwood in Fort Lauderdale make a custom headstay turnbuckle for the rigs they do.

I am agnostic about use of the ACMO rigging parts.  It is certainly a convenient and handy way of re-rigging. But other parts can be used...if it is approached with care and understanding. It's not a simple process. We had our rig redone by Nance and Underwood.  Without their background and experience with the Amel specific issues, I am sure there would have been problems.

Any rigger who quotes and designs this job by just looking at the wire sizes and lengths is likely to run into problems upon assembly.  Be sure they measure all the clevis pins and have a plan for how to handle any mismatches, and are aware of the issue with the headstay turnbuckle.

I am sure there are other issues that I have missed, but those seem to be the biggest ones.

Bill Kinney
Sm160,  Harmonie
Hollywood, FL, USA


Chip Beaman
 

Bill,
  Thank you so much for your reply, this is great information. My intention is to bring as much information to the rigger before we start this job.  
  With ACMO unable to ship to the states, I’m just trying to get this right without to much disaster. This info helps greatly. 

Thanks again
CB
SM2K #430
Hawaii




On Dec 13, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

Chip,

There are a couple issues with using non-ACMO parts.  None of them are insurmountable, but they need to be understood.  In a perfect world, inch and metric parts would be available everywhere, and there would be no supply chain issues.  If only.

First, is the turnbuckle under the genoa furler.  This is a bespoke part from Amel, much shorter than any stock product.  You have two choices:  Reuse the old one, or have a new one made to fit.  One issue with reusing the old one is that the threads might then not match the new studs.  This might lead to a very unpleasant surprise when you go to put everything back together.  Reusing this bronze part is likely not an issue--once.  But it should be replaced at some point.

It is also very hard to source all the parts in a way that will fit all the existing holes for the clevis pins.  Do not allow the use of clevis pins smaller than original, this results in point loading and unacceptable wear on the chainplates and mast tangs.  If the pins need to change, go UP a size and ream out the holes to match the diameter of the pins exactly. Note that this is HARD to do without specialized tools  Just a simple drill bit is not going to work well. It is POSSIBLE to shim the holes and use a clevis pin a fraction smaller, but that is also not simple. Sorting out all the fitting issues is complex, and a big function of what parts are locally available. Especially true if you want to go to mechanical terminals instead of swages.  The availability of sizes is more limited.

The problem with changing the size of these pins is: it is irreversible.  Once done, the ACMO clevis pins will be too small and should not be used. Again, not necessarily a big deal, but something to be aware of.

How these issues are handled is what separates "Amel-Aware" riggers from the rest of the pack.  I know Nance and Underwood in Fort Lauderdale make a custom headstay turnbuckle for the rigs they do.

I am agnostic about use of the ACMO rigging parts.  It is certainly a convenient and handy way of re-rigging. But other parts can be used...if it is approached with care and understanding. It's not a simple process. We had our rig redone by Nance and Underwood.  Without their background and experience with the Amel specific issues, I am sure there would have been problems.

Any rigger who quotes and designs this job by just looking at the wire sizes and lengths is likely to run into problems upon assembly.  Be sure they measure all the clevis pins and have a plan for how to handle any mismatches, and are aware of the issue with the headstay turnbuckle.

I am sure there are other issues that I have missed, but those seem to be the biggest ones.

Bill Kinney
Sm160,  Harmonie
Hollywood, FL, USA


James Rainsbury
 

Thanks for this guys - useful info.
Does anyone know any "Amel-Aware" riggers in the UK, if we were to go down the non-ACMO route for our new rig?
James Rainsbury

Folie a Deux
SM #239
Southampton, UK


marklesparkle59
 

James,
I used Allspars in Plymouth in the summer, they were very good and you could ask them to follow the guidance from Bill Kinney, the mismatch in pin sizes was something they brought up. They also made parts for my original Genoa furler for a reasonable price. Andy Postle is the person to talk to. 
My Sharki cost £4200inc VAT. The rigging from 1984 still looked ok...
Mark Porter


James Rainsbury
 

Thanks Mark, I'll get in touch with them.

Does anyone know where I can find a full list of all the required parts (including lengths/diameters) to re-rig our SM? I've had a quote from ACMO but it's all in French and google translate isn't up to the job! (I'm unsure if some of the terms - eg Galhaubans, Pataras, Marocain - are technical terms or just ACMO names). The quote came in at 10K EUR (with delivery), and I may also have to pay UK import tax on that, so I'm looking at other options. So far, the quotes for Kos/Sta-Loc are around £2K cheaper, although I don't want a nasty surprise when the rigger encounters a problem with pin sizes etc.

I will follow Bill Kinney's advice for sure: "Any rigger who quotes and designs this job by just looking at the wire sizes and lengths is likely to run into problems upon assembly.  Be sure they measure all the clevis pins and have a plan for how to handle any mismatches, and are aware of the issue with the headstay turnbuckle."

James

Folie a Deux
SM #239
Southampton, UK


Slavko Despotovic
 

Hi,

i have the same issue and I am close to decision to order terminal and turnbacles from ACMO, the rest will be done locally. They have increased prices for 7% in November I think. With original ACMO terminals and turnbacles I am on the safe side, I hope. So, a comment  from other Amel owners is welcome. 
--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Paul Osterberg
 

This is the spec from when I replaced this spring.
Hope it can be of some help.
Additional cost was 1500 euro labor plus ca 800 euro för stepping down and up of the masts plus 23% VAT
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


 

James,

This is what you need:



CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 2:18 AM James Rainsbury <james.rainsbury@...> wrote:
Thanks Mark, I'll get in touch with them.

Does anyone know where I can find a full list of all the required parts (including lengths/diameters) to re-rig our SM? I've had a quote from ACMO but it's all in French and google translate isn't up to the job! (I'm unsure if some of the terms - eg Galhaubans, Pataras, Marocain - are technical terms or just ACMO names). The quote came in at 10K EUR (with delivery), and I may also have to pay UK import tax on that, so I'm looking at other options. So far, the quotes for Kos/Sta-Loc are around £2K cheaper, although I don't want a nasty surprise when the rigger encounters a problem with pin sizes etc.

I will follow Bill Kinney's advice for sure: "Any rigger who quotes and designs this job by just looking at the wire sizes and lengths is likely to run into problems upon assembly.  Be sure they measure all the clevis pins and have a plan for how to handle any mismatches, and are aware of the issue with the headstay turnbuckle."

James

Folie a Deux
SM #239
Southampton, UK


James Rainsbury
 

Thanks everyone
James

Folie a Deux
SM #239
Southampton, UK