|
Teun BAAS
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
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|
|
Brent Cameron
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
-- Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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|
|
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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|
|
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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|
|
Given increased risk of breaker corrosion at sea should breakers be electively changed out at a certain point?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
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Teun BAAS
Brent, Danny et al,
Arno and I completely agree that increasing the Amps is not a solution; so that begs the questions:
A) Why did AMEL attach a 100A fuse to the wiring in that compartment?
B) Why did AMEL sent me a 75A protector as replacement for the left (55A) protector?
C) Why is the right protector on hull #128 55A but on hull #122 40A?
D) Besides these protector boxes there are also 2 breakers – I need to figure out if the protector functions AFTER the breaker or before; my guess is after the
breaker. If so then why did the breaker not pop before burning the protector box?
I will contact AMEL and ask them these questions as well as what they currently use as protector on the A50 and A60 and the size of the wiring on those boats.
Brent,
Arno happen to have a 50A, 40A and 30A jumbo fuse on the boat and inserted the 50A; so far everything working fine. But surely, once on destination in either AZORES
or finale destination ROTTERDAM, Arno will exhaust this issue and I am sure (knowing Arno) come with a solution hahahahahaha. We discussed this already
😊
I will get a bunch of the same 50A jumbo fuses to replace the 100A currently in that compartment.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 17, 2022
10:35:44
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2022 06:13
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE
AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering
and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would
be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if
the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of
the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during
the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Teun BAAS
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Teunis Baas < teunbaas@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2022 04:49
To: Teun BAAS < teun@...>
Subject: tb/AMELIT main outhaul/tb
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|
Courtney Gorman
 This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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Courtney Gorman
 This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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Teun BAAS
Same on AMELIT - top left corner of left protector. So clearly this is an issue on the A54.
So how did you restore the set up?
On May 17, 2022, at 11:57, Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:
This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
Cheers
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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|
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Hi Paul, it is the connections to the breakers/protectors that need to be checked. Separate, clean, apply CRC and reconnect. All connections are affected but the high load (eg bow thruster, anchor windlass, sail controls and winches) are the ones that can cause serious issues. Not an impossible number to deal with on a sunny afternoon at anchor in an idyllic bay. It is serious preventative maintenance. And when you squeeze in to reach these connections you may unexpectedly just find something else that was just waiting to bite you. The great thing about preventative maintenance is it prevents disasters.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 09:21 Paul Harries via groups.io <pharries@...> wrote:
Given increased risk of breaker corrosion at sea should breakers be electively changed out at a certain point?
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
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The only word I can think of is Oh S......Buy refer to my previous posts.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 13:56 Courtney Gorman via groups.io <itsfun1@...> wrote:
This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
Cheers
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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Teun BAAS
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT.
The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and
then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the
wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original
was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead
of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened
during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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|
|
Courtney Gorman
Repaired by Pochon in Martinique same setup as they did not have a better solution.
-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, May 16, 2022 11:21 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Same on AMELIT - top left corner of left protector. So clearly this is an issue on the A54.
So how did you restore the set up?
On May 17, 2022, at 11:57, Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:
This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
Cheers
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Picture of current situation on hull # 128.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 17, 2022 10:43:54
From: Teunis Baas < teunbaas@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2022 04:49
To: Teun BAAS < teun@...>
Subject: tb/AMELIT main outhaul/tb
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Brent Cameron
Your questions A-D are all great questions and I’d love to hear the answers from Amel. I’m so glad to hear that Arno had appropriate spares on board and has been able to effect a safe repair. Those pictures from Arno and Courtney scare me silly The battery banks in these boats have an enormous amount of stored energy and this really stresses making sure of all electrical connections are well protected (electrically, physically and from corrosion) - and to be clear, I’m certainly not implying that Arno didn’t. I’m not a fan of having breakers a long way away from the source but sometimes it is inevitable and it is therefore very necessary to ensure that nothing can happen to the wires delivering the power to the breakers. Any connections should be regularly examined for corrosion and signs of heating. Again, I’m so glad he’s ok. Thanks for letting us know
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Should consideration be given for installing DC arc-fault circuit protection for the very high amperage circuits close to the battery bank
? I gather this technology has come a long way in last 15 years since these boats were built.
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
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|
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
Kind Regards
Danny
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Bob Chapman <bob_chapm@...>
I’m an electrical engineer. Danny is absolutely correct: the fuse HAS to be sized according to the size of the wire that leads from the fuse or circuit breaker to the load. Don’t ever ignore this.
Bob Chapman
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 17, 2022, at 1:44 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it
will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
Kind Regards
Danny
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT.
The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and
then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the
wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original
was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead
of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened
during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
|
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|
