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Dean Gillies
Hi All,
I think its important to understand the purpose and function of the various protection elements in this system.
Let's not get caught up in random discussions about 55A breakers vs 75A overcurrent protectors vs 100A fuses, rather, lets think about the design of this system as a whole.
"The 55A Breaker"
As others have noted, the breaker is designed to protect the wiring circuit. It is designed to trip before the wiring heats to a dangerous level. Heating is a slow process, and breakers are designed to open "slowly" in the event of slow heating, but open quickly in the event of a short-circuit. I have not looked at the specifics of the Amel breakers, but by way of example, a 55A breaker may happily operate for minutes with 100+A , but will open in milliseconds with 1000A. A 55A breaker does not immediately open when the current rises above 55A.
"The Overcurrent Protector or TOP"
Overcurrent protectors are designed to operate within much more stringent over-current limits than breakers. The 75A protector in (some of) our 54's is designed to open in less than 200milliseconds after the current exceeds 75A. It also automatically resets after 2 seconds has elapsed. These figures are noted on the label. This is quite different to the operation of a breaker.
The 55A breaker is protecting the wiring from overheating and short-circuit faults, whereas the "TOP" is protecting the motor by pausing its operation whenever the current exceeds 75A.
"The 100A Fuse"
Why did Amel provide a 100A fuse beside the overcurrent protector? The purpose of the 100A fuse is not to act as a fuse, but as a link in the event that the overcurrent protection device fails and does not reset. Removing the TOP and replacing it with a 100A fuse allows the circuit to operate again, albeit without the TOP protection. There is no safety purpose for that 100A fuse, it is simply a bypass mechanism for the TOP, and becomes an integral part of the wiring when installed. The 55A breaker protects the wiring AND the 100A fuse.
I hope the above helps the group to understand that AMEL's design for this circuit is sensible and that the 55A, 75A and 100A figures for those devices are also sensible and will all operate together as intended.
What AMEL did not (and could not) countenance was the catastrophic failure of the overcurrent protection device. That is entirely out-with the design parameters, and looks very much like a latent defect in the TOP. I cannot find any detailed information about the particular TOP installed, but I agree with Arno that this is probably a failed MOSFET.
I have checked my TOP, and it is in absolutely pristine condition, no sign of any heating whatsoever. I am currently in two minds about whether to disconnect it and install the 100A fuse/link.
Hope this helps.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****, Amel 54-154
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Laurens Vos
I think bothering about the correct Amperage for the fuses and for the TOP is secondary.
The main IMPORTANT thing is that that TOP - NEVER EVER - would melt or go in flames !!
(are they made in Italy ?)
When it detects an overload it need to trip but NOT MELT !
To my “wooden shoes theorie” it’s better to loose your electrical motor due to overload as getting a fire on bord.
I’m not an electrician but isn’t it better to take this dangerous things out ?
That circuit is already protected by a trip-switch and a fuse isn’t that enough ?
Laurens
A54 Fun@Sea #72
La Rochelle
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Teun BAAS
Laurens,
Both Arno and I have the left TOP connected to the outhaul (boom) and the right TOP to the Mast.
Difference between Arno and me is that his Mast TOP is 40A and mine is 55A
Arno’s Boom TOP was 55A while AMEL sent me in 2018 or 2019 a 75A TOP. Didn’t bother to check what Amp the replaced TOP was.
On May 18, 2022, at 18:05, Laurens Vos via groups.io <laurensrineke@...> wrote:
A question from another “wooden shoes guy”,
is that left TOP connected to the boom motor or to the mast motor ?
Laurens
A54 Fun@Sea #72
La Rochelle
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Laurens Vos
A question from another “wooden shoes guy”,
is that left TOP connected to the boom motor or to the mast motor ?
Laurens
A54 Fun@Sea #72
La Rochelle
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Thanks Teun, You are right, an answer must be found before there is a catastrophic boat loss fire. If changes have been made to a boat that could dramatically increase the current (amperage delivered) constantly to a particular circuit the impact on the circuit (and controllers etc) that it serves. that increased load must be considered. Spike load is one thing, constant high load delivery is quite another. I will take you to a mechanical example. An SM owner fits a new engine and upgrades from 78hp to 110hp not taking into consideration the fact that the C drive in the SM fitted in later production had an upgraded C drive to match the 110hp engine. The result is failure of the C drive.
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 18/05/2022 11:50 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
I have the AMEL supplied 100A in place by-passing the AMEL sent 75A Thermal Overload Protector (which didn’t work on arrival); see picture. Honestly I now remember discussing with AMEL the non-functioning of their TOP and going to address while I was on my usual 3 months USA shore stay but COMPLETELY forgot until Arno asked me for help/feed back earlier last week. So I had been sailing from April 2019 thru December 2019 using the 100A fuse.
I am now going to:
- Get a bunch of 50A fuses and replace the 100A fuse.
- Ask the Marine electrician coming on board to make AMELIT comply with the strict QUEENSLAND code (more strict than the general OZZIE code) if he can get me a TOP; preferably 50A.
- Ask AMEL a bunch of questions in relation to these increasing Amp TOPs as well as the 100A redundancy/limp home fuse.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022 09:48:07
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 03:44
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Teun BAAS <teun@...>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Brent Cameron
LOL. Don’t know about the “wouldn’t know”. Most Dutch guys I’ve know have been pretty smart. Stubborn but smart.
Anyway, it is no surprise that the TOP pops before the breaker. The breaker is designed to pop on relatively instantaneous short circuits of very high currents while the TOP won’t trip with a high starting current but is designed to trip when the motor gets overloaded (or the bearings seize, there is a difference between phases of the wiring, lower than expected supply voltage, etc).
You can protect the motor using a beaker with a significantly smaller capacity than the wire can support but this is suboptimal. Those TOP devices SHOULD be set to trip at at lower amperages than would melt the wires. I’m guessing that Amel had issues with people operating those particular motors in conditions where they were burning out or tripping the breakers too often and installed these to address that. A lot of smaller AC Motors have them built in but I’m less familiar with DC motors as my experience in this area is with very large AC motors of hundreds and thousands of HP.
There are some breakers that combine both functions but ideally you want a breaker that only pops to save the wires and won’t trip at a momentary high starting current with a TOP providing protection to the motor itself. This widens the range at which the circuit can operate without inoportuna trips. These particular TOPs seem to be failing in a fairly dangerous way that might not even be tied to any particular overload. That seems a bit scary to say the leaf. They aren’t normally fail unsafe like this. They are a good item to have but I’d be looking at these pretty closely.
Brent
On May 17, 2022, 11:16 PM -0400, Nick Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>, wrote:
On my 54 hull number 019 there are no Thermal Overload Protectors installed. We only have the four breakers:
Headsail
Staysail
Mainsail mast
Boom outhaul
I occasionally pop the outhaul and mast breakers. They pop pretty easily. I have felt the motors when they pop and they are not hot.
The breaker is doing its job.
I guess the earlier 54’s did not have TOPs installed.
I also guess that it is the TOP itself that is a danger, as suggested a component within it…
I question the need for the TOP at all; the Windlasses and Thruster only have breakers and the Bowthruster has a 425A fuse but a thermal overload shutdown inbuilt…In my opinion the Bowthruster is a potential fire source but at sea it is turned off at least on passage it is. Ditto with the windlasses.
Furthermore I question the safety of having the TOP installed at all…
Yet Amel clearly decided to add them to later 54s. Maybe there was a problem with mast/boom motor burnouts…
If the mast/boom motors were to burn out at sea, not the end of the world. No fire on board, and an acceptable manual back up for sail handling.
When the photo of the burned TOP hit my inbox I immediately checked behind the double wall in the port cabin. I breathed a sigh of relief that none had been installed…
Nick
S/Y Amelia
AML54-019 Fethiye Turkey
On 18 May 2022, at 04:17, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Brent,
Brian next to me on SV LOLA (SUPER MARAMU 2000) says exactly the same about me: wooden shoes, wooden head – wouldn’t know 😊. In addition he proclaims to everybody on the dock that he tried to drown me but failed as my wooden shoes make me float.
There is a circuit breaker about 50 cm before that particular TOP which would be in between the motor and the battery bank.
We just can not understand why the breaker doesn’t trip but the TOP about 50 cm down the line burns out and I have to agree with Arno that a component inside the TOP is the problem.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022 11:16:04
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brent Cameron via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 11:04
To: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Tuen, I’m quite aware of the Dutch tendencies as one of my best friends and my brother in law both are stereotypical examples. I always tease them with “wooden shoes, wooden head, wouldn’t listen”. I’m Canadian and we have our own issues so let me apologize for that in advance. LOL.
Let me also apologize for not realizing that picture was your boat. The posts were coming in to my emails in weird orders so I got a bit confused. I also had thought that it was a circuit breaker that failed and not a TOP. The purpose of the Thermal Overload Protector is actually to protect the motor - especially against excess heat from too much work being demanded of it. This is in contrast to the circuit breaker or fuse which is intended to protect the downstream wires. Replacing a TOP with a fuse or C/B causes you to lost that functionality so he will have to be careful to not overload the motor as it is running without that protection now but as you say, I’m sure he already does that.
It really does seem like it’s a problem with the TOP device and a sample size of three boats in a short period of time seems to indicate an issue. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the Lithium’s either as AGM’s are more than capable of supplying enough current to do that kind of damage.
I’m glad he’s safe and none of your three boats were seriously damaged or lost to the damage. On Amelit, I’d reinstall a TOP and replace that 100A fuse as you need both wire and motor protection and that fuse is very likely providing neither (assuming it is oversized for the wire) if there isn’t also a circuit breaker for that circuit closer to the battery bank (in which case perhaps the 100A fuse is meant to serve as a limp home mode knowing you’ve lost the TOP. Anyway, without knowing the circuit it’s dangerous for me to speculate further.
On May 17, 2022, 7:43 PM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
Danny, Brent et al,
Let me address a couple of possibly misunderstandings:
- Brent: the pictures I have seen so far are Courtney’s and the other one is from my boat AMELIT (#128). We have NO pictures of LUNA (#122) Arno’s boat. Clearly on my boat there was also a burn out situation with the left black box (this is a thermal overload protector - TOP) before I got her. I discovered this when my left TOP failed in 2018/2019 in NEW CALEDONIA. I didn’t pay attention to the Amps but informed AMEL I needed a new TOP and they sent the current 75A unit which did NOT work on arrival and since I needed to leave NEW CAL we put back the AMEL supplied purple 100A fuse. Although I do agree & am aware on the Amps & wiring requirements I reasoned that this was an AMEL designed & supplied redundancy/limp home solution so safe to use.
- I am now personally aware of 3 AMEL 54 which had the same left TOP unit burn out at EXACTLY the same location: the top left corner. Pls realize: 1) there are/is NO connector on that side of the TOP; the connectors are @ the bottom – totally on the opposite side of the TOP. 2) on my boat absolutely NO corrosion on those connectors at all. So no bad connection or corroded connection issues at all. It is clearly a component inside that black box/TOP.
- Arno is typical Dutch (difficult & stubborn) extremely anal about maintaining LUNA to the highest standards so I am convinced absolutely no corroding on his boat. I asked him if he excessively used the boom and/or used in strong winds and/or under heavy loads. He replied: not at all – just regular usage.
- Arno seems to think it is a MOSFET transistor shorting out; I have no clue what a MOSFET is but Arno is very familiar with electricity etc. etc.
- We also discussed if this could be related to/caused by the LITHIUM (he recently installed) creating a voltage spike; he doesn’t think so but we discussed this briefly as I am, jointly with the AMEL SUPER MARAMU 2000 next to me, working/deciding on a joint installation of a complete VICTRON LITHIUM systems.
- Pls bear in mind that in addition to the TOPS we are have 4 breakers outside right next to the TOP compartment: Head sail; Boom; Staysail and Mast. Only the Boom and the Mast have the TOP protectors inside the double wall.
Finally – on all 3 A54 I am now aware the burn out was on the left TOP and then on each unit on the left top side. Clearly there is an issue with a component at that location inside the TOP/back box.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022 09:43:10
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
-- Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Nick Newington
On my 54 hull number 019 there are no Thermal Overload Protectors installed. We only have the four breakers:
Headsail Staysail Mainsail mast Boom outhaul
I occasionally pop the outhaul and mast breakers. They pop pretty easily. I have felt the motors when they pop and they are not hot.
The breaker is doing its job.
I guess the earlier 54’s did not have TOPs installed.
I also guess that it is the TOP itself that is a danger, as suggested a component within it…
I question the need for the TOP at all; the Windlasses and Thruster only have breakers and the Bowthruster has a 425A fuse but a thermal overload shutdown inbuilt…In my opinion the Bowthruster is a potential fire source but at sea it is turned off at least on passage it is. Ditto with the windlasses.
Furthermore I question the safety of having the TOP installed at all…
Yet Amel clearly decided to add them to later 54s. Maybe there was a problem with mast/boom motor burnouts…
If the mast/boom motors were to burn out at sea, not the end of the world. No fire on board, and an acceptable manual back up for sail handling.
When the photo of the burned TOP hit my inbox I immediately checked behind the double wall in the port cabin. I breathed a sigh of relief that none had been installed…
Nick S/Y Amelia AML54-019 Fethiye Turkey
On 18 May 2022, at 04:17, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Brent,
Brian next to me on SV LOLA (SUPER MARAMU 2000) says exactly the same about me: wooden shoes, wooden head – wouldn’t know
😊. In addition he proclaims to everybody on the dock that he tried to drown me but
failed as my wooden shoes make me float.
There is a circuit breaker about 50 cm before that particular TOP which would be in between the motor and the battery bank.
We just can not understand why the breaker doesn’t trip but the TOP about 50 cm down the line burns out and I have to agree with Arno that a component inside
the TOP is the problem.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
11:16:04
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brent Cameron via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 11:04
To: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Tuen, I’m quite aware of the Dutch tendencies as one of my best friends and my brother in law both are stereotypical examples. I always tease them with “wooden shoes, wooden head, wouldn’t listen”. I’m Canadian and we have our own
issues so let me apologize for that in advance. LOL.
Let me also apologize for not realizing that picture was your boat. The posts were coming in to my emails in weird orders so I got a bit confused. I also had thought that it was a circuit breaker that failed and not a TOP. The purpose of the Thermal Overload
Protector is actually to protect the motor - especially against excess heat from too much work being demanded of it. This is in contrast to the circuit breaker or fuse which is intended to protect the downstream wires. Replacing a TOP with a fuse or C/B
causes you to lost that functionality so he will have to be careful to not overload the motor as it is running without that protection now but as you say, I’m sure he already does that.
It really does seem like it’s a problem with the TOP device and a sample size of three boats in a short period of time seems to indicate an issue. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the Lithium’s either as AGM’s are more than capable of supplying enough
current to do that kind of damage.
I’m glad he’s safe and none of your three boats were seriously damaged or lost to the damage. On Amelit, I’d reinstall a TOP and replace that 100A fuse as you need both wire and motor protection and that fuse is very likely providing neither (assuming it is
oversized for the wire) if there isn’t also a circuit breaker for that circuit closer to the battery bank (in which case perhaps the 100A fuse is meant to serve as a limp home mode knowing you’ve lost the TOP. Anyway, without knowing the circuit it’s dangerous
for me to speculate further.
On May 17, 2022, 7:43 PM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
Danny, Brent et al,
Let me address a couple of possibly misunderstandings:
- Brent: the pictures I have seen so far are Courtney’s and the other one is from my boat AMELIT (#128). We have
NO pictures of LUNA (#122) Arno’s boat. Clearly on my boat there was also a burn out situation with the left black box (this is a thermal overload protector -
TOP) before I got her. I discovered this when my left TOP failed in 2018/2019 in NEW CALEDONIA. I didn’t
pay attention to the Amps but informed AMEL I needed a new TOP and they sent the current 75A unit which did NOT work on arrival and since I needed to leave NEW CAL we put back the AMEL supplied purple 100A fuse. Although I do agree & am aware on the Amps &
wiring requirements I reasoned that this was an AMEL designed & supplied redundancy/limp home solution so safe to use.
- I am now personally aware of 3 AMEL 54 which had the same left TOP unit burn out at
EXACTLY the same location: the top left corner. Pls realize: 1) there are/is
NO connector on that side of the TOP; the connectors are @ the bottom – totally on the opposite side of the TOP. 2) on my boat absolutely NO corrosion on those connectors at all. So no bad connection or corroded connection issues at all. It is clearly a component
inside that black box/TOP.
- Arno is typical Dutch (difficult & stubborn) extremely anal about maintaining LUNA to the highest standards so I am convinced
absolutely no corroding on his boat. I asked him if he excessively used the boom and/or used in strong winds and/or under heavy loads. He replied: not at all – just regular usage.
- Arno seems to think it is a MOSFET transistor shorting out; I have no clue what a MOSFET is but Arno is very familiar
with electricity etc. etc.
- We also discussed if this could be related to/caused by the LITHIUM (he recently installed) creating a voltage spike;
he doesn’t think so but we discussed this briefly as I am, jointly with the AMEL SUPER MARAMU 2000 next to me, working/deciding on a joint installation of a complete VICTRON LITHIUM systems.
- Pls bear in mind that in addition to the TOPS we are have 4 breakers outside right next to the TOP compartment: Head sail;
Boom; Staysail and Mast. Only the Boom and the Mast have the TOP protectors inside the double wall.
Finally – on all 3 A54 I am now aware the burn out was on the left TOP and then on each unit on the
left top side. Clearly there is an issue with a component at that location inside the TOP/back box.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
09:43:10
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same
circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss
fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response
should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near
house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house
fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to
salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know
the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage.
I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector
is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is
going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Teun BAAS
Brent,
Brian next to me on SV LOLA (SUPER MARAMU 2000) says exactly the same about me: wooden shoes, wooden head – wouldn’t know
😊. In addition he proclaims to everybody on the dock that he tried to drown me but
failed as my wooden shoes make me float.
There is a circuit breaker about 50 cm before that particular TOP which would be in between the motor and the battery bank.
We just can not understand why the breaker doesn’t trip but the TOP about 50 cm down the line burns out and I have to agree with Arno that a component inside
the TOP is the problem.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
11:16:04
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Brent Cameron via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 11:04
To: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Tuen, I’m quite aware of the Dutch tendencies as one of my best friends and my brother in law both are stereotypical examples. I always tease them with “wooden shoes, wooden head, wouldn’t listen”. I’m Canadian and we have our own
issues so let me apologize for that in advance. LOL.
Let me also apologize for not realizing that picture was your boat. The posts were coming in to my emails in weird orders so I got a bit confused. I also had thought that it was a circuit breaker that failed and not a TOP. The purpose of the Thermal Overload
Protector is actually to protect the motor - especially against excess heat from too much work being demanded of it. This is in contrast to the circuit breaker or fuse which is intended to protect the downstream wires. Replacing a TOP with a fuse or C/B
causes you to lost that functionality so he will have to be careful to not overload the motor as it is running without that protection now but as you say, I’m sure he already does that.
It really does seem like it’s a problem with the TOP device and a sample size of three boats in a short period of time seems to indicate an issue. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the Lithium’s either as AGM’s are more than capable of supplying enough
current to do that kind of damage.
I’m glad he’s safe and none of your three boats were seriously damaged or lost to the damage. On Amelit, I’d reinstall a TOP and replace that 100A fuse as you need both wire and motor protection and that fuse is very likely providing neither (assuming it is
oversized for the wire) if there isn’t also a circuit breaker for that circuit closer to the battery bank (in which case perhaps the 100A fuse is meant to serve as a limp home mode knowing you’ve lost the TOP. Anyway, without knowing the circuit it’s dangerous
for me to speculate further.
On May 17, 2022, 7:43 PM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
Danny, Brent et al,
Let me address a couple of possibly misunderstandings:
- Brent: the pictures I have seen so far are Courtney’s and the other one is from my boat AMELIT (#128). We have
NO pictures of LUNA (#122) Arno’s boat. Clearly on my boat there was also a burn out situation with the left black box (this is a thermal overload protector -
TOP) before I got her. I discovered this when my left TOP failed in 2018/2019 in NEW CALEDONIA. I didn’t
pay attention to the Amps but informed AMEL I needed a new TOP and they sent the current 75A unit which did NOT work on arrival and since I needed to leave NEW CAL we put back the AMEL supplied purple 100A fuse. Although I do agree & am aware on the Amps &
wiring requirements I reasoned that this was an AMEL designed & supplied redundancy/limp home solution so safe to use.
- I am now personally aware of 3 AMEL 54 which had the same left TOP unit burn out at
EXACTLY the same location: the top left corner. Pls realize: 1) there are/is
NO connector on that side of the TOP; the connectors are @ the bottom – totally on the opposite side of the TOP. 2) on my boat absolutely NO corrosion on those connectors at all. So no bad connection or corroded connection issues at all. It is clearly a component
inside that black box/TOP.
- Arno is typical Dutch (difficult & stubborn) extremely anal about maintaining LUNA to the highest standards so I am convinced
absolutely no corroding on his boat. I asked him if he excessively used the boom and/or used in strong winds and/or under heavy loads. He replied: not at all – just regular usage.
- Arno seems to think it is a MOSFET transistor shorting out; I have no clue what a MOSFET is but Arno is very familiar
with electricity etc. etc.
- We also discussed if this could be related to/caused by the LITHIUM (he recently installed) creating a voltage spike;
he doesn’t think so but we discussed this briefly as I am, jointly with the AMEL SUPER MARAMU 2000 next to me, working/deciding on a joint installation of a complete VICTRON LITHIUM systems.
- Pls bear in mind that in addition to the TOPS we are have 4 breakers outside right next to the TOP compartment: Head sail;
Boom; Staysail and Mast. Only the Boom and the Mast have the TOP protectors inside the double wall.
Finally – on all 3 A54 I am now aware the burn out was on the left TOP and then on each unit on the
left top side. Clearly there is an issue with a component at that location inside the TOP/back box.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
09:43:10
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same
circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss
fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response
should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near
house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house
fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to
salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know
the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage.
I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector
is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is
going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Brent Cameron
Thanks Tuen, I’m quite aware of the Dutch tendencies as one of my best friends and my brother in law both are stereotypical examples. I always tease them with “wooden shoes, wooden head, wouldn’t listen”. I’m Canadian and we have our own issues so let me apologize for that in advance. LOL.
Let me also apologize for not realizing that picture was your boat. The posts were coming in to my emails in weird orders so I got a bit confused. I also had thought that it was a circuit breaker that failed and not a TOP. The purpose of the Thermal Overload Protector is actually to protect the motor - especially against excess heat from too much work being demanded of it. This is in contrast to the circuit breaker or fuse which is intended to protect the downstream wires. Replacing a TOP with a fuse or C/B causes you to lost that functionality so he will have to be careful to not overload the motor as it is running without that protection now but as you say, I’m sure he already does that.
It really does seem like it’s a problem with the TOP device and a sample size of three boats in a short period of time seems to indicate an issue. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the Lithium’s either as AGM’s are more than capable of supplying enough current to do that kind of damage.
I’m glad he’s safe and none of your three boats were seriously damaged or lost to the damage. On Amelit, I’d reinstall a TOP and replace that 100A fuse as you need both wire and motor protection and that fuse is very likely providing neither (assuming it is oversized for the wire) if there isn’t also a circuit breaker for that circuit closer to the battery bank (in which case perhaps the 100A fuse is meant to serve as a limp home mode knowing you’ve lost the TOP. Anyway, without knowing the circuit it’s dangerous for me to speculate further.
Brent
On May 17, 2022, 7:43 PM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
Danny, Brent et al,
Let me address a couple of possibly misunderstandings:
- Brent: the pictures I have seen so far are Courtney’s and the other one is from my boat AMELIT (#128). We have NO pictures of LUNA (#122) Arno’s boat. Clearly on my boat there was also a burn out situation with the left black box (this is a thermal overload protector - TOP) before I got her. I discovered this when my left TOP failed in 2018/2019 in NEW CALEDONIA. I didn’t pay attention to the Amps but informed AMEL I needed a new TOP and they sent the current 75A unit which did NOT work on arrival and since I needed to leave NEW CAL we put back the AMEL supplied purple 100A fuse. Although I do agree & am aware on the Amps & wiring requirements I reasoned that this was an AMEL designed & supplied redundancy/limp home solution so safe to use.
- I am now personally aware of 3 AMEL 54 which had the same left TOP unit burn out at EXACTLY the same location: the top left corner. Pls realize: 1) there are/is NO connector on that side of the TOP; the connectors are @ the bottom – totally on the opposite side of the TOP. 2) on my boat absolutely NO corrosion on those connectors at all. So no bad connection or corroded connection issues at all. It is clearly a component inside that black box/TOP.
- Arno is typical Dutch (difficult & stubborn) extremely anal about maintaining LUNA to the highest standards so I am convinced absolutely no corroding on his boat. I asked him if he excessively used the boom and/or used in strong winds and/or under heavy loads. He replied: not at all – just regular usage.
- Arno seems to think it is a MOSFET transistor shorting out; I have no clue what a MOSFET is but Arno is very familiar with electricity etc. etc.
- We also discussed if this could be related to/caused by the LITHIUM (he recently installed) creating a voltage spike; he doesn’t think so but we discussed this briefly as I am, jointly with the AMEL SUPER MARAMU 2000 next to me, working/deciding on a joint installation of a complete VICTRON LITHIUM systems.
- Pls bear in mind that in addition to the TOPS we are have 4 breakers outside right next to the TOP compartment: Head sail; Boom; Staysail and Mast. Only the Boom and the Mast have the TOP protectors inside the double wall.
Finally – on all 3 A54 I am now aware the burn out was on the left TOP and then on each unit on the left top side. Clearly there is an issue with a component at that location inside the TOP/back box.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022 09:43:10
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 03:44
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Teun BAAS <teun@...>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
-- Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Teun BAAS
Danny,
I have the AMEL supplied 100A in place by-passing the AMEL sent 75A Thermal Overload Protector (which didn’t work on arrival); see picture. Honestly I now remember
discussing with AMEL the non-functioning of their TOP and going to address while I was on my usual 3 months USA shore stay but
COMPLETELY forgot until Arno asked me for help/feed back earlier last week. So I had been sailing from April 2019 thru December 2019 using the 100A fuse.
I am now going to:
-
Get a bunch of 50A fuses and replace the 100A fuse.
-
Ask the Marine electrician coming on board to make AMELIT comply with the strict QUEENSLAND code (more strict than the general OZZIE code) if he can get me a TOP; preferably 50A.
-
Ask AMEL a bunch of questions in relation to these increasing Amp TOPs as well as the 100A redundancy/limp home fuse.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
09:48:07
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 03:44
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Teun BAAS <teun@...>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate
ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE
AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering
and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would
be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if
the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of
the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during
the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Teun BAAS
Danny, Brent et al,
Let me address a couple of possibly misunderstandings:
-
Brent: the pictures I have seen so far are Courtney’s and the other one is from my boat AMELIT (#128). We have
NO pictures of LUNA (#122) Arno’s boat. Clearly on my boat there was also a burn out situation with the left black box (this is a thermal overload protector -
TOP) before I got her. I discovered this when my left TOP failed in 2018/2019 in NEW CALEDONIA. I
didn’t pay attention to the Amps but informed AMEL I needed a new TOP and they sent the current 75A unit which did NOT work on arrival and since I needed to leave NEW CAL we put back the AMEL supplied purple 100A fuse. Although I do agree & am aware on the
Amps & wiring requirements I reasoned that this was an AMEL designed & supplied redundancy/limp home solution so safe to use.
-
I am now personally aware of 3 AMEL 54 which had the same left TOP unit burn out at
EXACTLY the same location: the top left corner. Pls realize: 1) there are/is NO connector on that side of the TOP; the connectors are @ the bottom – totally on the opposite side of the TOP.
2) on my boat absolutely NO corrosion on those connectors at all. So no bad connection or corroded connection issues at all. It is clearly a component inside that black box/TOP.
-
Arno is typical Dutch (difficult & stubborn) extremely anal about maintaining LUNA to the highest standards so I am convinced absolutely no corroding on his boat. I asked him if he excessively
used the boom and/or used in strong winds and/or under heavy loads. He replied: not at all – just regular usage.
-
Arno seems to think it is a MOSFET transistor shorting out; I have no clue what a MOSFET is but Arno is very familiar with electricity etc. etc.
-
We also discussed if this could be related to/caused by the LITHIUM (he recently installed) creating a voltage spike;
he doesn’t think so but we discussed this briefly as I am, jointly with the AMEL SUPER MARAMU 2000 next to me, working/deciding on a joint installation of a complete VICTRON LITHIUM systems.
-
Pls bear in mind that in addition to the TOPS we are have 4 breakers outside right next to the TOP compartment: Head sail; Boom; Staysail and Mast. Only the Boom and the Mast have the TOP protectors
inside the double wall.
Finally – on all 3 A54 I am now aware the burn out was on the left TOP and then on each unit on the left top side. Clearly there is an issue with a component
at that location inside the TOP/back box.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 18, 2022
09:43:10
You can follow AMELIT via this link:
https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 03:44
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io; Teun BAAS <teun@...>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate
ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE
AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering
and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would
be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if
the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of
the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during
the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bob Chapman <bob_chapm@...>
I’m an electrical engineer. Danny is absolutely correct: the fuse HAS to be sized according to the size of the wire that leads from the fuse or circuit breaker to the load. Don’t ever ignore this.
Bob Chapman
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On May 17, 2022, at 1:44 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it
will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
Kind Regards
Danny
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT.
The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and
then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the
wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original
was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead
of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened
during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Thanks Teun, what is the amperage of the fuse that is in situ. I remain of the opinion that alternative (Particularly higher) amperage fuses should not be provided for the same circuit. There is a load/wire size and the fuse should be appropriate ie it will trip when the design load is exceeded.
If I overload either the main outhaul or furler motors on Ocean Pearl, my breakers trip, and so they should That scary photo of what could easily have developed into a boat loss fire demands proper investigation.
Kind Regards
Danny
On 17/05/2022 20:21 Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT. The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Should consideration be given for installing DC arc-fault circuit protection for the very high amperage circuits close to the battery bank
? I gather this technology has come a long way in last 15 years since these boats were built.
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Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
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Brent Cameron
Your questions A-D are all great questions and I’d love to hear the answers from Amel. I’m so glad to hear that Arno had appropriate spares on board and has been able to effect a safe repair. Those pictures from Arno and Courtney scare me silly The battery banks in these boats have an enormous amount of stored energy and this really stresses making sure of all electrical connections are well protected (electrically, physically and from corrosion) - and to be clear, I’m certainly not implying that Arno didn’t. I’m not a fan of having breakers a long way away from the source but sometimes it is inevitable and it is therefore very necessary to ensure that nothing can happen to the wires delivering the power to the breakers. Any connections should be regularly examined for corrosion and signs of heating. Again, I’m so glad he’s ok. Thanks for letting us know
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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Courtney Gorman
Repaired by Pochon in Martinique same setup as they did not have a better solution.
-----Original Message-----
From: Teun BAAS <teun@...>
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, May 16, 2022 11:21 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Same on AMELIT - top left corner of left protector. So clearly this is an issue on the A54.
So how did you restore the set up?
On May 17, 2022, at 11:57, Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1@...> wrote:
This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
Cheers
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
Picture of current situation on hull # 128.
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT A54 #128
HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
May 17, 2022 10:43:54
From: Teunis Baas < teunbaas@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2022 04:49
To: Teun BAAS < teun@...>
Subject: tb/AMELIT main outhaul/tb
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Teun BAAS
Danny,
If you look at the picture I sent you can see the purple (100A) Jumbo fuse zip tied to the bundle of wires. This is ONLY one way to utilize that fuse in that compartment.
Besides my A54 (hull 128) the same set up on Arno’s boat (hull 122) and I know of another A54 with identical set up.
On May 17, 2022, at 14:35, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS via groups.io <simms@...> wrote:
Hi all again,
I cannot believe the different amperage breakers provided by Amel would have been intended for the same circuits. Olivier can you advise.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 08:13 Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] tb/AMEL 54 outhaul protector burn out Mid Atlantic/AYOG
Hi Teun, Breakers, as Brent has pointed out are there to protect the down stream wire. They trip from either a short circuit or overload downstream from the breaker. The response should NEVER BE INSTALLING A BIGGER BREAKER. FIND THE CAUSE AND FIX IT.
The smoke and blackening is another issue, it is not the response of a breaker to overload. It is highly likely caused by poor connection of the wires in or out of the unit. I had a near house fire from a control unit for underfloor heating smoldering and
then as I searched the source of the smell, seeing it break in to flames. A specialist house fire investigator said electrical unit connection fire was a common cause of catastrophic house fires. And the cause of the unit connections burning was poor wire
connections in the units developing over time. On a boat corrosion is the enemy of good electrical connection. It can occur anywhere through salt laden air and more so in areas accessible to salt water trickles or splashes. So folks, the overheating and smoking
of these breakers is the symptom, not the illness. Find the cause, and please dont respond with ever bigger breakers
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 16/05/2022 23:00 Brent Cameron via groups.io <brentcameron61@...> wrote:
Tuen, as was pointed out (correctly) here a few weeks ago, fuses and circuit breakers are NOT designed to protect the load device but protect the wire going to it. I don’t know the size of the wire that this fuse is protecting (it would be the
wire between the fuse and the load) but if you can measure the diameter and ensure it’s copper, a quick look up will give you the amps that wire can safely carry at the specified voltage. I strongly believe that a 100A breaker would be too big if the original
was 40-55A. Installing this could have the same impact as no fuse or circuit breaker at all and could result in the wire melting and a fire.
A few decades ago there was an Air Canada pilot who noticed that the toilet pump in the rear lavatory on his jet was popping the circuit breaker so kept resetting it so the passengers could use it and this resulted in an inflight fire, emergency landing and
significant number of deaths.
The long and the short of it is that this breaker very likely tripped because there was something wrong with the circuit and not because it was underside for the wires. The fact that it emitted a lot of smoke tends to confirm that.
I’d figure out the size/gauge of the smallest wire between the breaker and the load, do a look up to see what current it can safely carry and ensure that it is more than 100A before I’d even dream of installing that as it wouldn’t be much better than bypassing
it altogether if it isn’t (other than the ability to shut the circuit down manually).
I would also be VERY careful even if installing a new one of the same size to figure out why the original failed rather than tripped. Could it be a bad connection at the breaker or at the load? An internal short in the load? Is there some issue with the
load causing it to draw way more current than normal? To measure the current draw, you need a clamp on type Ammeter capable of measuring DC Amps of that size). Most of the cheap knock off meters can’t do that but good ones like Flukes can.
Twin, please tell Arno NOT to install the 100A breaker until you or someone here can confirm it isn’t too big for the wires. A fire at sea is all our worst nightmares.
Brent
On May 16, 2022, 5:33 AM -0400, Teun BAAS <teun@...>, wrote:
A friend of mine (Arno) is currently with his A54 (#122) 1200 NM into his passage to the AZORES and texted me this afternoon that the main outhaul protector burned. This protector is behind a panel next to the breakers in the bulkhead
of the Guest cabin. There are 2 black protectors: he informed me that he has a 55A and a 40A. At this point I don't know which one burned. He also confirmed he had the Purple spare 100A fuse which he is going to plug in in the morning (the burn out happened
during the night).
He also told me that there was a massive amount of smoke & stench and feels that somebody sleeping in that cabin could have died from smoke inhalation.
BTW - one of the reasons I installed 3 smoke & carbon etc. detectors in the boat 2 weeks ago.
On my A54 (#128) there is a heavy black spot of charred wood at the top left corner of the protector closest to the cabinet (the left one) - this was there from the original owner. I now remember that in 2018/2019 I had a malfunctioning protector and ordered
from AMEL a new protector and they sent a 75A black box. I now also remember that on installation of this new 75A protector (in NEW CALEDONIA) it didn't work and we used the Purple 100A fuse between the white and the orange wire and it worked fine.
Until today, when I checked for Arno, I completely forgot about this happening and noticed today that I carry in that compartment 3 spare Purple 100 A fuses. The other (right hand side) black box protector on my boat is 55Amp and appears to be original.
This would mean that AMEL changed the 45A protector into a 75A protector????
Arno remembers a discussion on the forum on this A54 protector burn out but has no access to the internet/Forum. Can anybody
actually familiar with this issue tell us their experience; what caused it and what to do other than using the 100A fuse.
Discussing with an AMEL 53 couple laying right next to me here in the Marina they remarked that a 100A fuse is a massive, massive fuse - what are the potential consequences using this (AMEL installed spare) fuse?
Thanks for the help
Teun
SV AMELIT #128
HOPE ISALND, QLD, AUSTRALIA
--
Brent Cameron
Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator
Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada
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The only word I can think of is Oh S......Buy refer to my previous posts.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 13:56 Courtney Gorman via groups.io <itsfun1@...> wrote:
This is what it can lead to notice the ‘blowout’ left side of left breaker
Cheers
On May 16, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:
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Hi Paul, it is the connections to the breakers/protectors that need to be checked. Separate, clean, apply CRC and reconnect. All connections are affected but the high load (eg bow thruster, anchor windlass, sail controls and winches) are the ones that can cause serious issues. Not an impossible number to deal with on a sunny afternoon at anchor in an idyllic bay. It is serious preventative maintenance. And when you squeeze in to reach these connections you may unexpectedly just find something else that was just waiting to bite you. The great thing about preventative maintenance is it prevents disasters.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 17/05/2022 09:21 Paul Harries via groups.io <pharries@...> wrote:
Given increased risk of breaker corrosion at sea should breakers be electively changed out at a certain point?
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Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
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