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Bonding and Grounding Checks

Alex Lomakin
 

Dear Amelians,

I have recently replaced an old and worn out bonding strap in the bilge with a new one, which I made from 3x41mm copper plate, and today I ran all bonding checks as advised by Bill in his book on page 138.

Everything has checked. 👍

Further to the above, I have also expected a near zero resistance between a new strap and the boat’s grounding plate, but in reality it was pretty far from being zero.

Was I wrong? Should it have been near zero? If yes, does anyone have a diagram and/or a description of where the grounding plate is connected to and how?


Thank you very much,

Alex


Alexander Lomakin
SV Silver Star, #416

Eric Freedman
 

Alex,
Are you speaking of the SSB dynaplates, or the zincs on the rudder?
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Alex Lomakin via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2022 3:19 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Cc: Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Bonding and Grounding Checks

Dear Amelians,

I have recently replaced an old and worn out bonding strap in the bilge with a new one, which I made from 3x41mm copper plate, and today I ran all bonding checks as advised by Bill in his book on page 138.

Everything has checked. 👍

Further to the above, I have also expected a near zero resistance between a new strap and the boat’s grounding plate, but in reality it was pretty far from being zero.

Was I wrong? Should it have been near zero? If yes, does anyone have a diagram and/or a description of where the grounding plate is connected to and how?


Thank you very much,

Alex


Alexander Lomakin
SV Silver Star, #416

Bill Kinney
 

When you say "grounding plate" I assume you are talking about the sintered metal plate on the starboard side of the rudder skeg.  The "grounding plate" would have been connected to the bonding system IF the boat was delivered by Amel without an SSB radio installed.

If the boat was delivered WITH an SSB installed, then the grounding plate was connected only to the radio transmitter ground, and would show close to an open circuit to the bonding system.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.

Alex Lomakin
 

Dear all,

Based on your replies, it does appear that what I had assumed to be a “grounding plate” (please see the attached picture) is in fact an SSB plate…

Further to this, it looks like that my boat was fully prepped for an SSB radio: as I currently replacing all old cables in my masts, I have found an SSB antenna cable running all the way through to the nav desk, while an actual SSB radio has never been installed by the previous owner.

Hence, as you have mentioned above, my “grounding plate” should be connected only to the SSB system. Correct?



Thank you very much,

Alex


Martin Birkhoff
 
Edited

Hi Bill,

I am not a high-frequency engineer.
If your statements about bonding are correct, I wonder what that means:
Our 54 was delivered without SSB, so the copper sponges should be to be connected to the bonding. If I now install an SSB, the result would be that my "SSB earth" would not only be on the copper sponges, but on all the metal parts of the boat. The consequence would be that when transmitting with SSB, I would either interfere with several systems in the boat or the transmission would be affected. In this case, there should be a way to remove the bonding from the copper sponges. But how to do?
 
Fair winds,

Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
Île de Porquerolles, France

CW Bill Rouse
 

Martin,

This issue is a little confusing and it has more to do with the SSB Sintered Ground Plates Amel has installed on every Amel for many years through the production of the A55. Basically, Amel set up all of their boats for an SSB whether or NOT they installed an SSB. Amel mounted Sintered Ground Plates usually on the Rudder Skeg and ran copper foil from these to the inside of the Aft Lazarette, where an SSB Tuner would be installed. To protect these Sintered Ground Plates with the Amel Bonding System until an SSB was installed, Amel ran a yellow/green wire from these plates to a point behind the Nav Station where it was joined on a bus to the Amel Bonding System. If Amel, or later the owner, installed an SSB, the wire was removed from the Bus and capped.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Here are some photos from my Amel Book & Amel Book Supplements:
image.png
image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 3:59 PM Martin Birkhoff <mbirkhoff@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,

I am not a high-frequency engineer.
If your statements about bonding are true, I wonder what that means:
Our 54 was delivered without SSB, so the copper sponges should be to be connected to the bonding. If I now install an SSB, the result would be that my "SSB earth" would not only be on the copper sponges, but on all the metal parts of the boat. The consequence would be that when transmitting with SSB, I would either interfere with several systems in the boat or the transmission would be affected. In this case, there should be a way to remove the bonding from the copper sponges. But how to do?
 
Fair winds,

Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
Île de Porquerolles, France

Jay Feaver
 

Hi Alex,

I can confirm what the others said: the square grounding plates you showed are meant for SSB. You want to do your grounding continuity test from zinc anodes.  

I would add one other thought.  On our boat (a 55) the 'intended' location for the SSB antenna is the aft corner.   The feed that comes down the mizzen mast is used for the Navtex / Weather fax receiver.  The Triatic stay is used - with ceramic insulators - as the reception antenna.   That feed then goes to a navtex unit.  

We looked at adding an SSB to our boat (check out the Lars Thrane LT-3100s as am alternative).  The professional advice was pretty strongly not to use the triatic, instead to put a vertical whip antenna on the stern.  The explanation I received was that the vertical is easier to do in practice than the horizontal antenna.   I would love to hear a more nuanced explanation of that some day. 

Good luck with the continuity test. 

Jay Feaver.  
SV Elation  A55-64

Nick Newington
 

Jay,

When I bought Amelia in 2017, she came with an SSB but the whip antenna was broken off. 
I wanted to replace all the standing rigging anyway, so rather than replace the whip antenna I used the starboard mizzen backstay. This involved an Isolator top and lower down but out of reach. Works fine and less clutter. 

I am no a ham enthusiast or radio buff but in the old days cruisers used SSB or ham and almost none of the sailing yachties used whip antennas.
In general I would say why use an extra whip antenna when you have masts…?  I made my choice, it works fine, there is less clutter, less holes in the deck, and in my opinion better, yet Amel preferred the whip route .
Maybe there is no real difference!


Nick
AML54 -019
Leros

On 6 Aug 2022, at 01:42, Jay Feaver via groups.io <jay@...> wrote:

Hi Alex,

I can confirm what the others said: the square grounding plates you showed are meant for SSB. You want to do your grounding continuity test from zinc anodes.  

I would add one other thought.  On our boat (a 55) the 'intended' location for the SSB antenna is the aft corner.   The feed that comes down the mizzen mast is used for the Navtex / Weather fax receiver.  The Triatic stay is used - with ceramic insulators - as the reception antenna.   That feed then goes to a navtex unit.  

We looked at adding an SSB to our boat (check out the Lars Thrane LT-3100s as am alternative).  The professional advice was pretty strongly not to use the triatic, instead to put a vertical whip antenna on the stern.  The explanation I received was that the vertical is easier to do in practice than the horizontal antenna.   I would love to hear a more nuanced explanation of that some day. 

Good luck with the continuity test. 

Jay Feaver.  
SV Elation  A55-64

amelforme
 

Hello Jay and Nick. As with almost everything at Amel, there were very specific reasons for using a whip antenna. First, Captain Amel considered if you insulated a backstay and lost the mast,  you also lost your prime method of reaching out to tell those who might care that you were going to be late for dinner… This was before satellite communicators/phones were commonplace.

 

Secondarily, it is generally recognized that a whip antenna can be more precisely tuned so propagation should be better. I have heard radio techs I respect argue both sides of this strenuously.

 

As with all things he had an opinion about, Captain Amel was insistent. If you wanted Amel to install an SSB radio, you got a whip antenna. Period. I think this position softened sometime after 1985.

 

Oh! Been asked many times how come I call myself ‘the experienced Amel guy’. Today I celebrate the 42 anniversary of the first Amel I sold, a Euros 41. Maybe I should change it to ‘the Old Amel guy’.   

 

All the best,

Joel

 

            JOEL F. POTTER – CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST, LLC

                                           The Experienced AMEL Guy

UNSURPASSED AMEL MARKETING EXPERIENCE AND PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE

                              OFFICE:  954-462-5869             Cell:  954-812-2485

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nick Newington via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 12:12 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Bonding and Grounding Checks

 

Jay,

 

When I bought Amelia in 2017, she came with an SSB but the whip antenna was broken off. 

I wanted to replace all the standing rigging anyway, so rather than replace the whip antenna I used the starboard mizzen backstay. This involved an Isolator top and lower down but out of reach. Works fine and less clutter. 

 

I am no a ham enthusiast or radio buff but in the old days cruisers used SSB or ham and almost none of the sailing yachties used whip antennas.

In general I would say why use an extra whip antenna when you have masts…?  I made my choice, it works fine, there is less clutter, less holes in the deck, and in my opinion better, yet Amel preferred the whip route .

Maybe there is no real difference!

 


Nick

AML54 -019

Leros



On 6 Aug 2022, at 01:42, Jay Feaver via groups.io <jay@...> wrote:

Hi Alex,

I can confirm what the others said: the square grounding plates you showed are meant for SSB. You want to do your grounding continuity test from zinc anodes.  

I would add one other thought.  On our boat (a 55) the 'intended' location for the SSB antenna is the aft corner.   The feed that comes down the mizzen mast is used for the Navtex / Weather fax receiver.  The Triatic stay is used - with ceramic insulators - as the reception antenna.   That feed then goes to a navtex unit.  

We looked at adding an SSB to our boat (check out the Lars Thrane LT-3100s as am alternative).  The professional advice was pretty strongly not to use the triatic, instead to put a vertical whip antenna on the stern.  The explanation I received was that the vertical is easier to do in practice than the horizontal antenna.   I would love to hear a more nuanced explanation of that some day. 

Good luck with the continuity test. 

Jay Feaver.  
SV Elation  A55-64

Jay Feaver
 

Thanks Joel,

Always interesting to hear the historical context.  :)

Regards, Jay

Alex Lomakin
 

Dear all,

First of all, thanks a great bunch for a fantastic feedback, which is greatly appreciated.

As a part of my standing rigging upgrade, this winter I have ordered from ACMO a new triatic with required isolators to potentially use it as SSB antenna, when and if I decide to invest in this system.

So incidentally I was wondering whether you could also advise me and other interested parties on the best SSB radio set currently available for sale.


Thank you very much,

Alex

CW Bill Rouse
 

Alex,

ACMO makes the Triatic with insulators, but you cannot use the Triatic for an SSB antenna. This was an Amel design of the Triatic to use it as a weather fax antenna. 

It is NOT the right length for SSB frequencies, but more importantly, the SSB Antenna Turner must be mounted as close to the antenna as possible. This is the reason that when Amel installs an SSB the Tuner is in the Aft Lazarette, just below the whip antenna. It is possible to use a Mizzen Back Stay, but you should be aware of the potential electrical shock, positioning the bottom insulator higher than someone can touch it.
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 12:59 PM Alex Lomakin via groups.io <alexander.a.lomakin=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Dear all,

First of all, thanks a great bunch for a fantastic feedback, which is greatly appreciated.

As a part of my standing rigging upgrade, this winter I have ordered from ACMO a new triatic with required isolators to potentially use it as SSB antenna, when and if I decide to invest in this system.

So incidentally I was wondering whether you could also advise me and other interested parties on the best SSB radio set currently available for sale.


Thank you very much,

Alex

Jérémy Lajotte
 

Hi all,

I removed the SSB from my SM#121 last week. This is the original Amel installation, and it is in immaculate condition.
I thought about keeping it in a closet, but if another owner is interested, I would consider selling it.
There is the antenna: 7m in total (a 4m base + a 3m end)
The Furuno AT-1500 antenna coupler.
The Furuno PC-220 DC-DC Converter.
The Furuno FS-1550 SSB transceiver.
And all the wires.

It's actually in Nantes, France.

Furuno FS-1550 
Jérémy Lajotte
06 74 07 1000
Le 07/08/2022 à 19:59, Alex Lomakin via groups.io a écrit :

Dear all,

First of all, thanks a great bunch for a fantastic feedback, which is greatly appreciated.

As a part of my standing rigging upgrade, this winter I have ordered from ACMO a new triatic with required isolators to potentially use it as SSB antenna, when and if I decide to invest in this system.

So incidentally I was wondering whether you could also advise me and other interested parties on the best SSB radio set currently available for sale.


Thank you very much,

Alex

--
SM #121 Nausicaä
Nantes, France

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