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Duo 100 Watermaker HP Connector Leak

Dean Gillies
 

Hi all,
I've been monitoring some surface corrosion on the HP wastewater connector of my Dessalator Duo 100 watermaker.  I knew there must be a leak, but I've never observed any actual water coming out until recently.   There is now a very small trickle when running the watermaker. Some pics attached of the whole membrane assembly for context and close-ups of the HP inlet side (looks perfect), and the outlet sides (looks very average!).  

The watermaker has operated for less than 150 hours since new 12 years ago, and produces the correct quantity of water with TDS in the low 200's.  To my knowledge the membranes are original.  In its first seven years of life, the boat was a marina queen and the only usage comprised a 1-hour flush cycle every month by the previous owner's maintenance man. There were 67.5 hours on the clock when I bought in 2017.  No significant use of sodium metabisulfite other than during Covid when I was unable to get to the boat, and had someone pickle it for me.  As a result, I don't want to get involved in a big strip-down exercise, and I'm hoping that the leaking connector can be removed, and re-sealed effectively.

The dessalator manual shows the details, and it looks straightforward, but you know how these things go !!  Membranes are fragile things and I don't want to break something else with my efforts.

Any advice would be most welcome, thanks!

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Nick Newington
 

Hi Dean,

I recently replaced the end caps on the outboard end. In so doing I took the whole membrane frame out. It is not difficult…nor is it something to be fearful of...

However from your photos it looks like there is a slight leak at the inboard HP hose connection.  So you can do what you need to leaving it all in place. The leak is probably due to some slight pitting on the face of the stainless HP fittings. The answer is not to over tighten it, but to use a special product on the faces  that mate, not the thread. I can not remember the product, someone on the forum will, but I used Locktite. I carefully undid the hp hose and using very fine wet and dry paper cleaned the faces and coated them with locktite then mated them together and torqued them up tight but not excessively so. Sorry did not use a torque wrench, so can not be specific. This stopped the leak and it has been fine ever since(several years).

Nick

S/Y Amelia 

AML 54-019 
Leros

On 5 Aug 2022, at 10:26, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

<IMG_5186.JPG>
Porter McRoberts
 

This is what Dessalator recommends. (Or flaretite seals.) The 542 works beautifully. 
Let it cure for 24 hours prior to use. 

image

I use it on all the high pressure fittings:  apply with Q tip to the angled faces of the mating surfaces. Can also be used as a thread sealant on the high pressure side of the Cat pump between the proprietary stainless fittings and the bronze pump body. 

Of course excellent prep of surfaces and threads with bronze wire brush and acetone to removes any oily residue is essential. 

Porter McRoberts 
S/V IBIS A54-152




On Aug 5, 2022, at 5:26 AM, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

Hi all,
I've been monitoring some surface corrosion on the HP wastewater connector of my Dessalator Duo 100 watermaker.  I knew there must be a leak, but I've never observed any actual water coming out until recently.   There is now a very small trickle when running the watermaker. Some pics attached of the whole membrane assembly for context and close-ups of the HP inlet side (looks perfect), and the outlet sides (looks very average!).  

The watermaker has operated for less than 150 hours since new 12 years ago, and produces the correct quantity of water with TDS in the low 200's.  To my knowledge the membranes are original.  In its first seven years of life, the boat was a marina queen and the only usage comprised a 1-hour flush cycle every month by the previous owner's maintenance man. There were 67.5 hours on the clock when I bought in 2017.  No significant use of sodium metabisulfite other than during Covid when I was unable to get to the boat, and had someone pickle it for me.  As a result, I don't want to get involved in a big strip-down exercise, and I'm hoping that the leaking connector can be removed, and re-sealed effectively.

The dessalator manual shows the details, and it looks straightforward, but you know how these things go !!  Membranes are fragile things and I don't want to break something else with my efforts.

Any advice would be most welcome, thanks!
IMG_5193.JPGIMG_5189.JPGIMG_5186.JPG
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154

Dean Gillies
 

Hi Nick, Porter,
Thank you indeed, you give me confidence.

Will undertake this at the first opportunity. 
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
CW Bill Rouse
 

Follow Porter's advice. 
Here is a link to my Amel Book Supplement on this issue: 

 FlareTite Seal for JIC Fittings.pdf

Here is a snippet from my Amel Book page 211 of 400:

image.png

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 6:49 AM Porter McRoberts via groups.io <portermcroberts=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is what Dessalator recommends. (Or flaretite seals.) The 542 works beautifully. 
Let it cure for 24 hours prior to use. 

image

I use it on all the high pressure fittings:  apply with Q tip to the angled faces of the mating surfaces. Can also be used as a thread sealant on the high pressure side of the Cat pump between the proprietary stainless fittings and the bronze pump body. 

Of course excellent prep of surfaces and threads with bronze wire brush and acetone to removes any oily residue is essential. 

Porter McRoberts 
S/V IBIS A54-152




On Aug 5, 2022, at 5:26 AM, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

Hi all,
I've been monitoring some surface corrosion on the HP wastewater connector of my Dessalator Duo 100 watermaker.  I knew there must be a leak, but I've never observed any actual water coming out until recently.   There is now a very small trickle when running the watermaker. Some pics attached of the whole membrane assembly for context and close-ups of the HP inlet side (looks perfect), and the outlet sides (looks very average!).  

The watermaker has operated for less than 150 hours since new 12 years ago, and produces the correct quantity of water with TDS in the low 200's.  To my knowledge the membranes are original.  In its first seven years of life, the boat was a marina queen and the only usage comprised a 1-hour flush cycle every month by the previous owner's maintenance man. There were 67.5 hours on the clock when I bought in 2017.  No significant use of sodium metabisulfite other than during Covid when I was unable to get to the boat, and had someone pickle it for me.  As a result, I don't want to get involved in a big strip-down exercise, and I'm hoping that the leaking connector can be removed, and re-sealed effectively.

The dessalator manual shows the details, and it looks straightforward, but you know how these things go !!  Membranes are fragile things and I don't want to break something else with my efforts.

Any advice would be most welcome, thanks!
IMG_5193.JPGIMG_5189.JPGIMG_5186.JPG
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154

Bill Kinney
 

With this type of high pressure fitting, the most common failure I have seen is cracking of the flare on the hose side because of overtightening.  There is very much such a thing as too tight! Do NOT just crank down on them to make them as tight as you can.  It is absolutely possible to crack the flare right on the first installation, but if that doesn't happen over tightening the flare increases the stress on it, and accelerates chloride stress cracking, and the flare is also distorted making subsequent reinstallation less likely to be successfully leak free.

Here is the advice from the largest manufacturer of these fittings https://blog.parker.com/site/usa/en-US/details-home-page/proper-assembly-steps-for-37-flare-fittings-using-the-flats-method-us  For the size hoses that we are talking about here, the correct amount to tighten a new fitting is 1 1/2 "flats" (90º) from "wrench resistance tight."  Tighter than this will not make a better seal, and can destroy the hose side of the connection.

I have installed many of these hoses, never used any type of additional sealant, and never had a leak.  I don't think the loctite or gaskets hurt anything, they are just not needed if the fitting is in good condition and correctly assembled.  If the fitting is pitted from corrosion, scratched, or otherwise damaged they are worth a try.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
Dean Gillies
 

Thanks Bill R, and Bill K,
It sounds like I should order a spare Stainless Cone and Nut piece and brass union before I take everything apart?

One other question. In Dessalator’s manual (pic attached) they show a “steel tapered end piece” which is used in the assembly process before being discarded prior to mating the stainless nut to the membrane assy.  As far as I can see it is used solely to fix the stainless nut and allow the stainless cone to be screwed into the brass union. 

Without that end piece, what is the process needed to remove the stainless steel cone from the brass union.
I feel I am missing something here!


--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
CW Bill Rouse
 

Regrettably, it is confusing.

Dessalator uses these non-crimping hydraulic fittings so that you can make up your own length of hoses when installing the system and/or if ordering new hoses from Dessalator. Frankly, I do not especially like these. I dealt with these with several hose replacements and now recommend that you have HP hose made with 3/8 JIC Stainless Steel crimp-on fittings.

Here is an Amel Book Supplement that might help you with the Dessalator fittings: 

 Dessalator HP screw-on Connectors.pdf

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:59 PM Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill R, and Bill K,
It sounds like I should order a spare Stainless Cone and Nut piece and brass union before I take everything apart?

One other question. In Dessalator’s manual (pic attached) they show a “steel tapered end piece” which is used in the assembly process before being discarded prior to mating the stainless nut to the membrane assy.  As far as I can see it is used solely to fix the stainless nut and allow the stainless cone to be screwed into the brass union. 

Without that end piece, what is the process needed to remove the stainless steel cone from the brass union.
I feel I am missing something here!


--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Bill Kinney
 

Dean,

I have never used those DIY fittings.  I always had hoses made up at a local hydraulic mechanic. I bring them the old hose and say, "Make me one of these."  Be sure to tell them what you are using it for, so they get the right materials of construction. It is not expensive.  

Finding hydraulic service people has been easy--everywhere. Every commercial fishing boat, large ship, construction and farm equipment, and a lot of trucks all have hydraulic systems.  

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
Denis Foster
 

Hi Bill,

To be sure I got the right information : You advise using Flairtite OR Loctite ?  Or is it using both?

Thanks

Denis
Dean Gillies
 

Thanks Bill R and Bill K,
My preference at this stage is to fix/replace only the outlet HP fitting as I'm pretty sure that's the only problem I have. However, I now understand that to do this I need a means to hold the stainless cone/nut assy so I can remove it from the hose. A simple elbow or end-cap would do the trick.

I'm going to have to track down a hydraulic shop for that part., however the internal threading of the brass and stainless parts (where it's leaking from) could be corroded too much, so I could end up dismantling the control panel and replacing the whole hose as suggested by Bill K.

With boats, its never quite as straightforward as it looks 🤣

Will let you know how I get on.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Sv Garulfo
 

Dean,

Note that the HP hose that uses those diy fittings will have to be shortened if you choose to remove the sleeve, and you may not have a choice about removing it. Will you have enough slack? Also note that the cover on our hose (on the same system) started to crumble aged 10 years. 

2 of our dyi fittings were looking sad (the ones connected to the membranes assembly) while the other two looked great. 

We had a spare hose with crimped stainless steel fittings that we had purchased in the Canary Islands for 80€ for 2017, using a fellow Amel’s as a template, for the pump->membranes section. 

We got a new hose from dessalator and reused the 2 good fittings to replace the leaking membrane->panel section.

To answer your question, without a fitting to get a good hold on the nipple during assembly, we used the end cap’s fitting (in place) and rotated the hose to screw the nipple into it.  Obviously you need to detach the hose from the panel. 

Which leads me to my advice : once the hose is out, get a spare with crimped fittings in stainless steel. Have fun reusing the dyi fittings but they (or the reused hose) won’t last much longer. 

Our reused ones started failing 18months later and we replaced them with crimped stainless steel (for 250€ in Tahiti, ouch).

Hope that helps,

Thomas 
far away from GARULFO 
A54-122
Vuda, Fiji


On 6 Aug 2022, at 10:35, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill R and Bill K,
My preference at this stage is to fix/replace only the outlet HP fitting as I'm pretty sure that's the only problem I have. However, I now understand that to do this I need a means to hold the stainless cone/nut assy so I can remove it from the hose. A simple elbow or end-cap would do the trick.

I'm going to have to track down a hydraulic shop for that part., however the internal threading of the brass and stainless parts (where it's leaking from) could be corroded too much, so I could end up dismantling the control panel and replacing the whole hose as suggested by Bill K.

With boats, its never quite as straightforward as it looks 🤣

Will let you know how I get on.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Dean Gillies
 

Hey Thomas,
Sorry to hear you are so far away from Garulfo!
Thanks for sharing your experience. My hoses still look to be in good condition after 12 years, but I'm sure my hours are a lot less than yours are. 
Regardless, my search history today is littered with the word "Hydraulic".  No luck yet, but if I can find a suitable hydraulics workshop here in Crete I will get two new hoses fabricated.  That way I'm guaranteed never to need the second one 🤣

Best regards, and hope everything is ok with Garulfo and that you get back to Fiji soon.
best regards 

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Dean Gillies
 

New hoses ordered.  The stainless steel fittings needed to be sent from Athens at EUR65 each. I didn't dare ask about the cost of the R7 hose and crimping fee!  Looks like I might come close to Thomas' record of EUR250 per hose in Tahiti !!
Hopefully will be delivered tomorrow.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154
Dean Gillies
 

Closing this out, I received a pleasant surprise when collecting my hoses from Stelios at Fotinakis (Chania), he said his boss had made me a better deal! I was charged a total of €140 for two new hoses with stainless connectors.  No challenge to Thomas' record 🤣

I replaced the outlet hose between the membrane and control panel and left the inlet between pump and membrane as is, since there is no sign of any issues there. I have a spare ready when needed.

I followed the recommended process for tightening and used some Loxseal 53-14 on the flares (equivalent to Loctite 542 which I could not find here). 

Ran the watermaker for an hour today and no leaks. 

Coincidentally just as we were leaving Chania today, I noticed some hydraulic fluid had collected in the lazarette under the tank for the passarelle. Looks like it's leakage season!!  That's for another day.

Thanks to all who helped me through the process 🙏
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154

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