Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Ruslan,
Yes I noticed that too, also that the teeth on Ruedi's gypsy look taller than mine. However, we have to be careful because Ruedi has a DIN chain and matching gypsy. Maybe that is the reason.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Ruslan Osmonov
 

Here is the image. somehow it got cut out. 

image.png


On Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 1:40 PM Ruslan Osmonov via groups.io <rosmonov=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Dean, when I watch your and Ruedi videos, what immediately catches an eye is that Ruedi's chain links lay very evenly in the gypsy. take a look at screenshot below. and in your videos, chain is sticking to one (pulling) side of teeth. seems like holes are larger and that eventually kicks one link out. 


--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Ruslan Osmonov
 

Hi Dean, when I watch your and Ruedi videos, what immediately catches an eye is that Ruedi's chain links lay very evenly in the gypsy. take a look at screenshot below. and in your videos, chain is sticking to one (pulling) side of teeth. seems like holes are larger and that eventually kicks one link out. 


--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Dean Gillies
 

Hi all,
Two more videos taken after turning the gypsy upside down.

Observations:
1. The deployment is much cleaner than before.
2. In this 45 second deployment, there is only one skip/rotation which happens after 30 seconds.
3. It is clear that, on deployment, every link impacts the ridges between the pockets on the lower half of the gypsy. This would seem to create a significant amount of wear on the lower half of the gypsy. This could explain why turning the gypsy upside down improves things. The lower part of the gypsy may be worn out.
4. In the retrieval video you can see that there is a small twist in the recovered chain between the gypsy and the bow roller. This was the twist caused by the deployment sequence in the video immediately prior to the retrieval. 
5. The retrieval process does not create the same impacts to the links as the deployment.

It seems to me that there needs to be a mechanism to guide the chain more effectively and cleanly on to the gypsy during deployment.

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Ruslan Osmonov
 

An interesting comment from UltraMarine owner. Food for thought....


Duplex is new material, but we always had warm waters. We started using 318LN in 2015 at the ULTRA Shanks because it is more robust, and you cannot bend the ULTRA Anchor shank when stuck under a rock. 

 

On the other hand, as you all bought that Duplex marketing for warmer waters, we will start selling Duplex Cromox chains next year, and you will pay more for nothing. 

 

I have been in that business for twenty years and would use 316L CROMOX on my boat and not pay extra to Duplex for nothing. That is up to you; if you want to pay extra for nothing, we can help you next year. 

 

--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Dean Gillies
 

Nick,
Thanks for the offer.  Regardless whether I have a solution, it would be good to catch up for a beer.
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Dean Gillies
 

Ruedi,
Thank you for the video. I am envious of your windlass performance :)

All,
I have today confirmed that both chains are ISO, 30 +/-0.5mm links, 315 +/-2mm + per 10 links.  On close inspection, I am convinced that the gypsies are correctly labelled. They are stamped with 203 (ISO) and the pockets measure up and match the ISO chain.

When I had things stripped down, I tried reversing the primary gypsy, per David's idea.  When I anchored this afternoon the performance was better.  There were a few skips for the first 6-8m then it settled down and ran smoothly.  Maybe I have a worn out gypsy (after 12 months of use).

I have also, supplied all the information about the problem to Lewmar Tech Support and asked what they recommend. In particular, would the addition of their optional Control Arm Kit solve the problem.

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Sv Garulfo
 

Hi Dean,

Looking at your picture in the pdf, it looks like the chain links are too small (as if they were DIN instead of ISO). Maybe you can measure the distance over a few links and check notes with others?

I don't understand why it should jump more on releasing than retrieving, though. However that it twists more when it jumps while releasing might be explained by the better guidance provided by the grooved roller, compared to the hause pipe. As the chain is about to slip, the links are positioned correctly (with respect to a twist) when retrieving. 


Before wintering, I fully rinsed the chain and it went in and out without any problems. 

Cheers

Thomas
GARULFO
A54-122
Vuda, Fiji 



On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, 17:40 Nick Newington via groups.io, <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Dean,

If you have not got to the bottom of this by the time I come out September 8 and if our paths cross, we could do some tests, like try my gypsy on your windlass, we could compare chains what ever. You could visually inspect my windlass in action….Looking at your video earlier something ain’t right. 

Nick

S/Y Amelia 
AML 54-019
Leros GR

On 16 Aug 2022, at 15:11, WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl <Rudolf@...> wrote:

Hi Dean
 
I confirm that on WASABI the chain deployment is without any kind of skipping at all. And when I bought WASABI there was the original gipsy 203 (ISO) with a DIN SS-Chain the former owner has installed. The A54 was new for me and I had no specific arguments about the skipping. We were able to deploy and retrieve the Anchor easily for most of the time, except after 10-20 anchor maneuvers, if the situation needed to deploy more than 50 meter. BTW this happened once in a marina with anchoring stern to a wharf as you described, the blockage occurred due to twisting.
 
Because it was cheaper to buy a new gipsy than a new chain, in installed 2 new 202 DIN766 gipsy and my 2 years old Cromox duplex is a DIN766 chain. Completely happy with the setup.
 
Happy sailing and best regards
Ruedi
SY WASABI
AMEL54 #055
 
Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 um 15:23
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist
 
Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
-- 
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154 



 

Chain, yes, it is easy to measure, but who can say what the tolerance is...and it will certainly need replacing because of age or corrosion before stretch or wear.

Gypsy, I don't think so, and every case where I have been asked what's wrong with the gypsy, it was either the wrong chain (DIN vs ISO) or the chain obviously needed replacement. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, 10:30 Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Is there a way to check specs on gypsy and chain to see if one or other is worn or out of spec?


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Nick Newington
 

Hi Dean,

If you have not got to the bottom of this by the time I come out September 8 and if our paths cross, we could do some tests, like try my gypsy on your windlass, we could compare chains what ever. You could visually inspect my windlass in action….Looking at your video earlier something ain’t right. 

Nick

S/Y Amelia 
AML 54-019
Leros GR

On 16 Aug 2022, at 15:11, WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl <Rudolf@...> wrote:

Hi Dean
 
I confirm that on WASABI the chain deployment is without any kind of skipping at all. And when I bought WASABI there was the original gipsy 203 (ISO) with a DIN SS-Chain the former owner has installed. The A54 was new for me and I had no specific arguments about the skipping. We were able to deploy and retrieve the Anchor easily for most of the time, except after 10-20 anchor maneuvers, if the situation needed to deploy more than 50 meter. BTW this happened once in a marina with anchoring stern to a wharf as you described, the blockage occurred due to twisting.
 
Because it was cheaper to buy a new gipsy than a new chain, in installed 2 new 202 DIN766 gipsy and my 2 years old Cromox duplex is a DIN766 chain. Completely happy with the setup.
 
Happy sailing and best regards
Ruedi
SY WASABI
AMEL54 #055
 
Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 um 15:23
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist
 
Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
-- 
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154 



Paul Harries
 

Is there a way to check specs on gypsy and chain to see if one or other is worn or out of spec?


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

I confirm that on WASABI the chain deployment is without any kind of skipping at all. And when I bought WASABI there was the original gipsy 203 (ISO) with a DIN SS-Chain the former owner has installed. The A54 was new for me and I had no specific arguments about the skipping. We were able to deploy and retrieve the Anchor easily for most of the time, except after 10-20 anchor maneuvers, if the situation needed to deploy more than 50 meter. BTW this happened once in a marina with anchoring stern to a wharf as you described, the blockage occurred due to twisting.

 

Because it was cheaper to buy a new gipsy than a new chain, in installed 2 new 202 DIN766 gipsy and my 2 years old Cromox duplex is a DIN766 chain. Completely happy with the setup.

 

Happy sailing and best regards

Ruedi

SY WASABI

AMEL54 #055

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 um 15:23
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist

 

Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

I made some Videos of the Lewmar V5/6 Vertical Windlass. Also made a slow Motion Video so you can perfectly see the deploying chain without any incorrect loading.

Unfortunately the files where too big to send by E-mail. I have therefore only attached one and will send you a slow motion video separately into your E-Mail if you like.

 

In your picture I can clearly see the misfit of the link into the gipsy groves and that incorrect loading is creating the twist in my opinion. Exactly this was my observation and created the twist when I had the wrong Gipsy. In your case there is no misfit between chain and gipsy as you said. But probably your galvanized chain is a bit out of tolerance. Only 1-2 mm per link creates 1-2 cm after some meters, which is then 2 cm out of center in the gipsy grove and this is the clunk noise you hear. This was creating the twist in my case with the 2mm difference between ISO and DIN.

After the chain was fitting the gipsy, there was no clonk, nor strange noise all the way out and back. No twist since 3 years and over hundred anchor maneuvers.

 

Best regards from Anchorage in Panarea

 

Ruedi Waldispuehl

 

SY WASABI

AMEL54 #055

 

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16.
August 2022 um 13:08
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist

 

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Sv Garulfo
 

Dean,


Are you 100% sure you don't have an incompatibility between you chain and gipsy?
A lewmar gypsy stamped 202 is for the DIN standard, with as a shorter step than the ISO standard (28mm Vs 30mm). 

Until last year we had ISO chain with a DIN gypsy and although it was fine initially, the chain started jumping when it wore out and the step became longer. That definitely caused severe twisting inside the chain locker. 

I don't know the history of that chain set-up on the boat but the second windlass has the same incompatibility, and I'm pretty sure neither the chain nor gypsy have been changed since the boat left the yard...

As an aside, I'm not convinced a swivel at the boat end of the chain would automatically resolve a twisted chain in the locker for anything more than a few turns. That's because the twists will only transfer to the swivel once the last length of the chain is off the locker floor, meaning most of the chain has been deployed, which does not happen smoothly with more than a few turns. So still needs a fair amount of manual untwisting/cursing.  On the other hand, a swivel would save untying the connecting line.



Thomas
GARULFO
A54-122
Vuda, Fiji 

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, 13:08 Dean Gillies, <stella@...> wrote:
Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Roque
 

Hi Dean. Hope you are fine

Sent you a PM

Regards

Roque

Em ter., 16 de ago. de 2022 às 08:08, Dean Gillies <stella@...> escreveu:

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


--
Roque
Attika A54 117
Paraty - Brazil 


Dean Gillies
 

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Alexander Hofmann
 

Dear Bill, Ruslan, Dean, Laurens, Vladan, Nick, Louis, Rudolf, Martin, Germain, Bruno, David and Chris,

 

Thanks a lot for your extensive comments to my questions, which has brought a lot of insights, experience and knowledge to me.

It has helped me a lot indeed on my path for taking my decision.

 

Fair winds and sees, and good holdings with strong and reliable chains! 😊

Alexander

SY Oceanica I, Amel54#156

 


Chris Paul
 

HI David,
Here is my guess as to chain twisting.
I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong and interested if someone can add more.
I am also sorry if everyone knows this and I'm boring them.

Where I have sailed mostly, Southern Australia (Tasmania 40S to QLD 15S), the weather systems come from the west - High (anticlockwise) & Low (clockwise) rotation.
(assuming no out of the ordinary events (cyclones))
If you are at one location the winds direction rotate anticlockwise over a weather cycle (High - Low).
So on average it probably takes about a week to complete a weather cycle.
If you are on anchor for that week you gain one twist in your anchor in the anticlockwise direction.

Of course if you are in a tidal area it may be different (maybe you gain one twist every 12 hours??)
In tropical areas (ITC) it is probably different again??

Sea breezes and the corresponding night breezes are another effect.
On the Australian east coast the sea breezes build up during the day & also veer anticlockwise (E to NE) 

In the Northern Hemisphere the winds rotate in the opposite direction (clockwise twist).
So I guess the chain twist is related to the earths rotation & coriolis forces.
I guess it is a similar question to which way the water rotates down a sink??

I think wind "veer" means the wind goes the usual way for that hemisphere & wind "backing" means the opposite.
This is my understanding but I'm sure google knows much more - I have not checked. 







Regards, Chris Paul 
SM #352
Whangarei NZ


On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 01:42:02 am NZST, David Crisp <david@...> wrote:


I tried solving the problem per the suggestion of letting all the chain out in deep water and allowing it to untwist. However, once the twist is located in the anchor locker, the larger diameter of the twisted chain means it cannot pass up through the hawse pipe so all you end up doing is working all the twist down to the bitter end.  It's then necessary to release the bitter end, let off all the twist and then reattach the bitter end.  I prefer to do this in the safety of the dock/ashore.

As Dean mentions he does, each season when on the hard I now let out all my chain, release twist at the bitter end and flush with fresh water before restowing.  The big puzzle I'd like to solve: how the twist is being put into the chain in the first place???


--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


David Crisp
 

I tried solving the problem per the suggestion of letting all the chain out in deep water and allowing it to untwist. However, once the twist is located in the anchor locker, the larger diameter of the twisted chain means it cannot pass up through the hawse pipe so all you end up doing is working all the twist down to the bitter end.  It's then necessary to release the bitter end, let off all the twist and then reattach the bitter end.  I prefer to do this in the safety of the dock/ashore.

As Dean mentions he does, each season when on the hard I now let out all my chain, release twist at the bitter end and flush with fresh water before restowing.  The big puzzle I'd like to solve: how the twist is being put into the chain in the first place???


--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58