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Offshore PFD / harness opinions

Paul Harries
 

I would appreciate your opinions and experiences on currently available offshore  PFDs with harness
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
Courtney Gorman
 

I really like Mustang 
Cheers 
Courtney 


On Oct 16, 2022, at 1:29 PM, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries@...> wrote:

I would appreciate your opinions and experiences on currently available offshore  PFDs with harness
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer

Clive Chapman
 

I bought a pair of Spinlock 5d deckvest life jackets just before c19 hit, so it is only this summer we’ve got to use them. They repeatedly came top or no.2 in reviews across a number of years and different, reputable, reviewers. 

They were very comfortable to wear all day even in the hot Med sun this summer. They have some nice features like illumination of the entire jacket, flip up locator light  and additional storage on the belt. 

The only downside was in very certain situations you could find yourself sitting on the crotch strap buckle, but a few seconds of wiggle generally sorted that. 

As I understand it they've recently upgraded to the 6D that has a 'tow behind' strap mechanism to avoid being dragged face first if you're unlucky enough to fall over the side. 

On the basis of only a few weeks of use, I'd be very happy getting them again, or the 6D next time. 

Regards
Clive
Koen Blanquart
 

We went for the Spinlock 6D based on reviews. I haven't tested them in the water (yet ;-)), but on board, they're pretty comfortable. And that was one of the main reasons we bought them: we want to ensure we can perform all actions outside while wearing the PFD.  Agree with Clive on the crotch strap buckle, especially on the hard sitting of the captain's seat of our Santorin :-)

I'd buy the 6D again, but rather than the 275N we have now, I might go for the 170N if we did not have large crossings in our plans, as it's a little less heavy and less expensive.

Koen

--
Koen Blanquart
SV Bagabonda
SN #20
Ian Park
 

12 years ago whilst sitting out bad weather in Navarre (Portugal) I decided to do some experiments with life jackets/ harnesses.
This was based on my earlier experiences in rock climbing in the late 1960s before climbing harnesses we’re invented. You tied on directly round your waist using an Italian hemp rope waist line and a Tarbuck knot in the new nylon 3 strand climbing rope ( you could never attach nylon rope to nylon rope!). Later you just tied the nylon rope round your waist with a bowline.
BUT if you ever fell of an overhang you had 4 minutes to attach a prussik loop and get your foot in it to take the weight off your chest. After 4 minutes you were unable to use your arms because of the blood supply restriction. Then it was just half an hour before you’d passed out and died through lack of blood to the brain.
Sorry about the long winded tale, but - I got my wife to haul me up off the deck with a chest harness, a life jacket with crutch strap and a full body harness. The only one I could say was comfortable for more than 3 minutes was the full body harness designed for working at height. Bear in mind this this was just my own weight- no drag from the water!!
The sailing magazine thought it a very good illustrated article, but declined to publish.
I have long held the view that if I go on deck in rough weather it’s the full body harness and no life jacket.
I just can’t see why the industry has not come up with life jacket incorporating a good sit harness.
You ought to be able to be hauled up your mast in comfort in a life jacket if it was suitable for MOB. At present the standard only requires a crutch strap to prevent the jacket riding up while floating.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96
CW Bill Rouse
 

Ian, very good description and information. I am sure someone at the magazine was attempting to avoid liability. If you still have the article and illustrations I am sure that others would love to see it.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:50 AM Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:
12 years ago whilst sitting out bad weather in Navarre (Portugal) I decided to do some experiments with life jackets/ harnesses.
This was based on my earlier experiences in rock climbing in the late 1960s before climbing harnesses we’re invented. You tied on directly round your waist using an Italian hemp rope waist line and a Tarbuck knot in the new nylon 3 strand climbing rope ( you could never attach nylon rope to nylon rope!). Later you just tied the nylon rope round your waist with a bowline.
BUT if you ever fell of an overhang you had 4 minutes to attach a prussik loop and get your foot in it to take the weight off your chest. After 4 minutes you were unable to use your arms because of the blood supply restriction. Then it was just half an hour before you’d passed out and died through lack of blood to the brain.
Sorry about the long winded tale, but - I got my wife to haul me up off the deck with a chest harness, a life jacket with crutch strap and a full body harness. The only one I could say was comfortable for more than 3 minutes was the full body harness designed for working at height. Bear in mind this this was just my own weight- no drag from the water!!
The sailing magazine thought it a very good illustrated article, but declined to publish.
I have long held the view that if I go on deck in rough weather it’s the full body harness and no life jacket.
I just can’t see why the industry has not come up with life jacket incorporating a good sit harness.
You ought to be able to be hauled up your mast in comfort in a life jacket if it was suitable for MOB. At present the standard only requires a crutch strap to prevent the jacket riding up while floating.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96
Gary Wells
 

In a more generic sense, we carried two sets of pfds aboard.  The inflatables, whatever brand or model you choose, are purposed for wearing and working aboard.  I would add that (and this is my opinion) inflatable pfds are intended for "short" durations of flotation assistance.  
My philosophy has been to use inflatables for accidental overboard situations.  When there is hope that crew is still aboard to turn the boat around and come fetch you.
On the other hand, if you need to get off the boat on purpose, and rescue could be a day or two out then donning a permanently buoyant pfd is preferred because of zero chance of an air leak. 

As I said, it's just my philosophy and opinion working here and thankfully never put to the test. 
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Thanks Ian, I have long held the veiw that to go overboard in a tethered harness would be fatal if the boat wasn't stopped very quickly even in calm water, in a seaway with 30knots or more of wind, (which is when you are most likely to go over)it doesn't bare thinking about. Now you have pointed out a further issue. I have always thought the crotch strap, while uncomfortable, would have overcome the breathing/blood restriction issue. Your test suggests otherwise. Proper fitted adjustment would be important. However even then the drag would make it well nigh impossible to position yourself, even for the young and fit. Those of us North of 65 may have a bit more trouble. I am even more determined not to fall overboard now.
The Amel ability to adjust almost everything from the cockpit is clearly our greatest and critical safety method.
Kind regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 17/10/2022 19:50 Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote:


12 years ago whilst sitting out bad weather in Navarre (Portugal) I decided to do some experiments with life jackets/ harnesses.
This was based on my earlier experiences in rock climbing in the late 1960s before climbing harnesses we’re invented. You tied on directly round your waist using an Italian hemp rope waist line and a Tarbuck knot in the new nylon 3 strand climbing rope ( you could never attach nylon rope to nylon rope!). Later you just tied the nylon rope round your waist with a bowline.
BUT if you ever fell of an overhang you had 4 minutes to attach a prussik loop and get your foot in it to take the weight off your chest. After 4 minutes you were unable to use your arms because of the blood supply restriction. Then it was just half an hour before you’d passed out and died through lack of blood to the brain.
Sorry about the long winded tale, but - I got my wife to haul me up off the deck with a chest harness, a life jacket with crutch strap and a full body harness. The only one I could say was comfortable for more than 3 minutes was the full body harness designed for working at height. Bear in mind this this was just my own weight- no drag from the water!!
The sailing magazine thought it a very good illustrated article, but declined to publish.
I have long held the view that if I go on deck in rough weather it’s the full body harness and no life jacket.
I just can’t see why the industry has not come up with life jacket incorporating a good sit harness.
You ought to be able to be hauled up your mast in comfort in a life jacket if it was suitable for MOB. At present the standard only requires a crutch strap to prevent the jacket riding up while floating.

Ian

Ocean Hobo SN96
Paul Harries
 

I asked this question because I had concerns similar to what Ian raised in his response.
A combination harness and PFD are designed to perform two discrete functions, firstly to try and keep an individual on the boat while tethered and secondly to provide flotation on falling overboard. What none of the devices seem to provide is a combination of both functions simultaneously; keeping someone who has fallen overboard attacked by a tether afloat and safe.
Perhaps one of the most important features of a combination PFD harness is the ability to detach easily from the harness on falling overboard.
PFD's Auto inflate on water contact, should they also auto release the tether?
Trying to manually release a tether after falling into cold water, possibly also having hit your head or suffered some other injury this problematic to say the least. 

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer
Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Yes Paul, the pull tag auto release has advantages if you want to easily release yourself from the tether if you fall overboard.  Which brings into question as to why you are tethered in the first place. If it is a long tether it will be unlikely to keep you on board and even a short tether is not going to keep you aboard with jacklines on the side deck.
Think lee rail with boat healing, the water is right there. My tether has a release clip which requires a pull on the tether to allow release. Cant be accidentally released. My wife's has a clip released with a beaded tug cord like the parrot beaks on spinnaker sheets. Quick and easy to release but I could see it catching on a rail or something as she went over and unclipping accidentally. I am constantly concerned about that.
Back to basics. Imagine. If your off watch crew don't know you are out on deck and have you in view and you fall over from a moving boat tethered, you will drown quite quickly.
If you are not tethered and your lifejacket inflates and the boat is doing six knots you will fall behind the boat at 3 meters per second. In two minutes you will be 360 meters behind. If it is blowing 20 knots and you are doing 8 knots in two minutes you will be  500 meters behind and totally invisible. The dying process is somewhat slower untethered but dead is dead.

Very important question. Do you really, really need to go on deck. If the answer is yes don't  do it unless the off watch crew has you in sight.
My process. Observe. Evaluate. Plan. Act. What is the song? Staying alive, staying alive. 
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
/10/2022 07:44 Paul Harries via groups.io <pharries@...> wrote:


I asked this question because I had concerns similar to what Ian raised in his response.
A combination harness and PFD are designed to perform two discrete functions, firstly to try and keep an individual on the boat while tethered and secondly to provide flotation on falling overboard. What none of the devices seem to provide is a combination of both functions simultaneously; keeping someone who has fallen overboard attacked by a tether afloat and safe.
Perhaps one of the most important features of a combination PFD harness is the ability to detach easily from the harness on falling overboard.
PFD's Auto inflate on water contact, should they also auto release the tether?
Trying to manually release a tether after falling into cold water, possibly also having hit your head or suffered some other injury this problematic to say the least. 

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer

Ian Park
 

The bit I forgot to mention was ‘retrieval’!
The full body harness has a front lifting ring and a second one between the shoulder blades.
I use the front one for the deck tethers and the rear top one to attach a spare halliard. My wife keeps control of that -a bit like playing a fish!
It does mean that she has immediate access on the mizzen winch to crank me out if necessary.
But - so far we haven’t been in a situation where I’ve needed to be out of the cockpit on my Amel to wear it.
We also carry the Jonbouy recovery module on the rail at the side of the cockpit (within easy reach) - which seems a good backup for the ageing skipper who is liable to trip up on a calm day out watching the dolphins playing!!

Ian

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