Topics

A54 fridge circulation pump

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

Yes I think my setup its a way to get rid of all the problems this old system had.

Yes I carry these parts double as spares because I run a prototype. In total its so much cheaper than one original pump so its no problem to carry spares. And the parts used are much smaller and lighter, while much more powerfull, than the original pumps.

The VESC speed controller is developed by Mr Vedder, a clever swedish, and used in many DIY and comercial scooters, scateboards, eSurfboards with much higher power demands than our little pump. So its a prooven system.

My fridge/freezer controller is part of the ship Computer system and connected to NMEA2K bus. The original thermostats are no more used. Instead precise electronic thermometers are in both devices. The controller checks on these thermometers and decides about cooling needs. If one unit is above set threshold the controller looks also for the other and if ever possible colls both at the same time. This will further reduce working time of the raw water pump.

The controller sends serial commands to the VESC. but the VESC is very versatile so its also possible to regulate it in a simple way

Oliver A54#39
Vela Nautica
Portugal

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump
From: Scott SV Tengah
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
CC:


Oliver,

If possible, I'd love to see photos of this setup. It sounds like a brilliant solution.

Also, could you tell us more about the intelligent controller that tries to "bundle" when the compressors for your two fridges run?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Oliver, 

Could you show us a photo of this setup? A picture is worth a million words.

My second Flojet pump just died. With two fridges and a freezer running, the lifetime is 6 months, max. Upon disassembly, it appears the brushes have worn out and the commutator is heavily scored - looks like the Grand Canyon. I would love to retain the diaphragm pump but replace the motor as you have.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Scott,

Great to hear I’m not the only one that has trouble with these pumps. I asked Flojet about this and they simply do not carry a brushless variant of this pump. I did have a look at a few other pumps that look very nice on paper (magnetic-drive and brushless). The two I tested (both centrifugal) did not supply enough pressure to overcome the resistance in the hoses/pipes. I now have al lot of pumps to do other stuff with :-(

Currently running a 12V/1.5A Flojet Quiet Quad but I’m sure it will die within a year despite the claim to be for continuous duty. It does stay cooler then the “official” Frigoboat pump that is actually a 24V shower-pump running at 12V. The pressure of the 12V model is adequate.

So I’m also interested in a more resilient solution to this problem. 

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Arno;

We have never had any issues with these pumps. We are still on the original pump after 11 years and have the backup if the original dies.

Given the variant in life span and longevity that some are seeing in the same pump and design, I would suspect other potential problem areas that lead to the early demise of the pump. These may include flow restriction, differences in heat, moisture, in the operating environment, demand and cycling, etc.

I know this may not be very specific and helpful, but I usually suspect the mechanical units in the system that have functioned well in so many other identical installation, last.

Respectfully;


Mohammad & Aty
B&B Kokomo
A54 #099

On Jan 12, 2020, at 4:11 AM, Arno Luijten via Groups.Io <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi Scott,

Great to hear I’m not the only one that has trouble with these pumps. I asked Flojet about this and they simply do not carry a brushless variant of this pump. I did have a look at a few other pumps that look very nice on paper (magnetic-drive and brushless). The two I tested (both centrifugal) did not supply enough pressure to overcome the resistance in the hoses/pipes. I now have al lot of pumps to do other stuff with :-(

Currently running a 12V/1.5A Flojet Quiet Quad but I’m sure it will die within a year despite the claim to be for continuous duty. It does stay cooler then the “official” Frigoboat pump that is actually a 24V shower-pump running at 12V. The pressure of the 12V model is adequate.

So I’m also interested in a more resilient solution to this problem. 

Scott SV Tengah
 

Mohammad,

Do you live aboard full-time? Arno and I do and our experiences are similar. In tropical heat and 2 fridges and a freezer running, at any given time, it's very likely one of the compressors is running which means the pump is running. 

I would guess my pump runs 80+ % duty cycle. The Frigoboat pump interface really should have the ability to coordinate the compressor operation "schedule".

My understanding, confirmed by long discussions with pump engineers at Marco, is that brushes on any DC electric motor last 2500 hours on average and in the best circumstances 5000 hours. With the near continuous duty, the Flojet pumps get quite warm, which accelerates brush wear. If you take my experience with 6 month motor life and multiply it out: 180days * 24 hours a day * .8 duty cycle = 3456 hours, which is right within spec.

If your pump lasts 11 years in the same use case as Arno and myself, that would mean it's lasted over 75,000 hours!

Even March pumps, which are brushless, are only rated for 50,000 hours. But sadly for my setup, the March rep told me it wouldn't work since their pumps won't self-prime, confirmed by Arno's testing. I would really love to retain the self-priming capability of the Flojet pump but get a brushless motor on it, like Oliver has done.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Scott;

 

We’re currently in the Med, so we’re on board full time for about 5 months every year. The fridges are obviously on all the time. We typically run two of the fridges and do not typically have a freezer on. I agree that the system will be working harder in the Caribbean and tropical conditions and are working closer to their design limits.

 

One of the reasons we selected an Amel, was because it had been tested over decades in conditions we expected to experience. I cannot comment based on personal experience about tropical conditions, since we have not experienced it with our Amel. I would look into the experience of all other Amel owners who have experienced the same conditions and if a significant percentage were experiencing what you and Arno have experienced, then I would conclude that there may be some design issues with the system. Otherwise I would suspect some other issue that may be unique to us. I typically suspect the design and component issues as a last resource, after I have eliminated all other possibilities.

 

Sorry that I cannot be of much more specific help, just another point of view.

 

Happy Sailing;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

AMEL 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 3:18 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

Mohammad,

Do you live aboard full-time? Arno and I do and our experiences are similar. In tropical heat and 2 fridges and a freezer running, at any given time, it's very likely one of the compressors is running which means the pump is running. 

I would guess my pump runs 80+ % duty cycle. The Frigoboat pump interface really should have the ability to coordinate the compressor operation "schedule".

My understanding, confirmed by long discussions with pump engineers at Marco, is that brushes on any DC electric motor last 2500 hours on average and in the best circumstances 5000 hours. With the near continuous duty, the Flojet pumps get quite warm, which accelerates brush wear. If you take my experience with 6 month motor life and multiply it out: 180days * 24 hours a day * .8 duty cycle = 3456 hours, which is right within spec.

If your pump lasts 11 years in the same use case as Arno and myself, that would mean it's lasted over 75,000 hours!

Even March pumps, which are brushless, are only rated for 50,000 hours. But sadly for my setup, the March rep told me it wouldn't work since their pumps won't self-prime, confirmed by Arno's testing. I would really love to retain the self-priming capability of the Flojet pump but get a brushless motor on it, like Oliver has done.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Scott, Mohammad et al,

I puchased Amelia in the West indies and sailed her to Greece. So have both tropical and temperate climate experience regarding the fridge system.

We have the same three fridge unit set up and the cooling pump lasts us quite well, probably along the 5000 hours estimate. I have noticed a few things;

1.The whole sea water cooling circuit is prone to shell growth.  This may originate in the main raw water strainer; so we now regularly clean it. The plastic basket that pulls out cleans up nicely by putting it in an acid bath. 

2. Due to that shell growth I have found fragments of shell within the valves on the fridge system circulating pump. These fragments are not good for the pump. 

3. I have found that the whole fridge sea water circuit, is also prone to shell growth. About once a season I take off the hose from the circuit and connect it to a hose pipe from the shore and blast fresh water through the whole thing. On one occasion I found that the copper manifold near the exit skin fitting was gunked up so the water could not flow. This required poking it out with a piece of wire. It was muddy crud!

4. When I bought the boat there were 4 spare fridge pumps aboard, the Amel set up installed two pumps so that it is quick to swap over. This all tells us that the system is prone to the pumps failing by design, and that the previous owner had issues with this.

5. When a pump fails, I swap to the spare and then strip down the failed one. To date the brushes have been good, bar one. Generally the problem has been shell fragments in the valves. So I clean it and put it back as the spare.

6. When swapping pumps I notice that the sea water flows as the pump is changed. In other words the pump is below the water line, so might not a non self priming pump work? 

Of course in the long term it would be great to improve the insulation for the fridge units, alas it is a big task, but frankly in this day and age polyurethane foam is not the best. Vacuum panels are the way to go. The fact that the units are running 80% of the time in the tropics tells me that the insulation is the real problem.

All the best,

Nick

Amelia AML 54-019
Kilada Greece




On 13 Jan 2020, at 19:28, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi Scott;
 
We’re currently in the Med, so we’re on board full time for about 5 months every year. The fridges are obviously on all the time. We typically run two of the fridges and do not typically have a freezer on. I agree that the system will be working harder in the Caribbean and tropical conditions and are working closer to their design limits.
 
One of the reasons we selected an Amel, was because it had been tested over decades in conditions we expected to experience. I cannot comment based on personal experience about tropical conditions, since we have not experienced it with our Amel. I would look into the experience of all other Amel owners who have experienced the same conditions and if a significant percentage were experiencing what you and Arno have experienced, then I would conclude that there may be some design issues with the system. Otherwise I would suspect some other issue that may be unique to us. I typically suspect the design and component issues as a last resource, after I have eliminated all other possibilities.
 
Sorry that I cannot be of much more specific help, just another point of view.
 
Happy Sailing;
 
 
Mohammad and Aty
B&B Kokomo
AMEL 54 #099
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 3:18 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump
 
Mohammad,

Do you live aboard full-time? Arno and I do and our experiences are similar. In tropical heat and 2 fridges and a freezer running, at any given time, it's very likely one of the compressors is running which means the pump is running. 

I would guess my pump runs 80+ % duty cycle. The Frigoboat pump interface really should have the ability to coordinate the compressor operation "schedule".

My understanding, confirmed by long discussions with pump engineers at Marco, is that brushes on any DC electric motor last 2500 hours on average and in the best circumstances 5000 hours. With the near continuous duty, the Flojet pumps get quite warm, which accelerates brush wear. If you take my experience with 6 month motor life and multiply it out: 180days * 24 hours a day * .8 duty cycle = 3456 hours, which is right within spec.

If your pump lasts 11 years in the same use case as Arno and myself, that would mean it's lasted over 75,000 hours!

Even March pumps, which are brushless, are only rated for 50,000 hours. But sadly for my setup, the March rep told me it wouldn't work since their pumps won't self-prime, confirmed by Arno's testing. I would really love to retain the self-priming capability of the Flojet pump but get a brushless motor on it, like Oliver has done.

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your observations. I fully agree the insulation of especially the freezer is the main problem. As Oliver suggested in previous postings, changing the insulation with a better one really makes a big difference. But he also said it's a hell of a project. In the mean time we are using circulation pumps like cookies.
Fact is that Flojet claims to supply you a pump for continuous duty but it's not. Even at 80% duty cycle the thing drops dead after less then a year. That should not happen. As said by others, brushed motors are simply not suitable for this task.
So the idea of replacing the pump-motor itself is quite good but you will need to carefully select what motor to replace it with.

I've looked at the sea-water circuit and I'm thinking about a way to clean it, but that is not so simple. I think the easiest is to pump some descaling fluid though the circuit and let is soak for a while. On the other hand the continuous flow of water makes keeps growth of whatever wants to settle in the circuit also minimal.

It's a pity that Flojet does not sell a brushless variant of the pump. That would make the problem much better to cope with.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

Jamie Wendell
 

I have had many, many motor failures using the Flojet pumps you all are referencing - often they last less than a year. In many instances the failures have caused my refrigeration units to shut down, and in one case in Martinique I had to replace the evaporator on the freezer under the seat.
I have determined that the failures occur most often as the boat battery voltage drops off (tough to keep at 100%), and that is one reason I am considering upgrading to Lithium batteries this year.
Maybe I have been too complacent and have just blindly bought new replacement pumps, but now (with 3 failed motors on board), I am determined to solve this issue once and for all.
Based on all the email conversation, can someone let me know which pump will work well? I have never checked the incoming voltage at the pump, but I am surprised to hear it is 12 volts vs. 24. I have used 24 volt motors in service, and I am not sure where the step-down occurs - maybe in the pump controller?
Any recommendations would be helpful, as I have seen many ideas.
Thanks,
Jamie Wendell
A54 Phantom

Sv Garulfo
 

Hi All,
After 3 flojets (full time liveaboard, typically running 1fridge+1 freezer, lifespan 8-14mths), we have installed and been running on the Marco UP-2P 24v for a 1.5 months, as recommended earlier in related thread ( (#48365) + (#49456)). So far so good but still early days to say, and yes it is noisier than the Flojet.

@Scott, I thought you mentioned earlier in sep that you had ordered the Marco UP-2P 24v too, and were either running it or planning to soon. What was your experience with it? 

Thanks,
Soraya
GARULFO A54-122
Nuku Hiva, Marquesas, FP 

On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 at 08:44, Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
I have had many, many motor failures using the Flojet pumps you all are referencing - often they last less than a year. In many instances the failures have caused my refrigeration units to shut down, and in one case in Martinique I had to replace the evaporator on the freezer under the seat.
I have determined that the failures occur most often as the boat battery voltage drops off (tough to keep at 100%), and that is one reason I am considering upgrading to Lithium batteries this year.
Maybe I have been too complacent and have just blindly bought new replacement pumps, but now (with 3 failed motors on board), I am determined to solve this issue once and for all.
Based on all the email conversation, can someone let me know which pump will work well? I have never checked the incoming voltage at the pump, but I am surprised to hear it is 12 volts vs. 24. I have used 24 volt motors in service, and I am not sure where the step-down occurs - maybe in the pump controller?
Any recommendations would be helpful, as I have seen many ideas.
Thanks,
Jamie Wendell
A54 Phantom

Teun BAAS
 

I also had at least 3 Flojet pumps going out on me since Q1 2018; usually the freezer temperature would go up - over 1 ½ year period in NEW CALEDONIA the freezer unit was checked for leaks & serviced at least 2 or 3 times. In vain I tried to get locally BARNACLE BUSTER, couldn’t bring it back with me from USA. In VANUATU I had freezer problems again and luckily another AMEL 54 owner (Bob HODGINS/SV GALLIVANT) had ½ gallon BB and we flushed the fridge/freezer for about 5 hours: unbelievable amount of junk coming out of the system. Everything worked fine for 1 or 2 months but during passage from NOUMEA to BUNDABERG the freezer created problems again.  

 

I am determined to solve this problem permanently and take drastic action as I need a fully functional freezer. Therefore last month agreed with a (German) marine refrigeration specialist @ THE BOAT WORKS YARD (an excellent, world class 55 acres facility with every marine service you can think of on-site) in COOMERA AUSTRALIA that on my return from USA we would check & service the refrigeration, freezer as well as A/C systems. He also suggested taking out the current element out of the freezer and replacing with a unit curving inside the freezer box therefore giving more efficient freezer space. However, he is not willing to change for me the insulation of the freezer box where I believe the main problem is as I can see the temperature rising quickly when I turn the system off for my 2 weekly cleaning of the little in line filter/strainer. The previous owner also installed in both the fridge as well as the AC lines an in line anti-algae/growth anti fouling system; originally SPECTRA but they sold the product line to HALDEN MARINE and is now called BIO-GUARD. I have the 500 for the fridge & freezer line and the 1000 for the A/C systems.

 

I really would like to hear from a A54 owner who has gone thru the process of replacing the horizontal freezer (under the saloon bench) insulation how to go about this.

 

I will be in USA until early March and then return to AUSTRALIA.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

January 14, 2020 16:24:11

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:49
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

I have had many, many motor failures using the Flojet pumps you all are referencing - often they last less than a year. In many instances the failures have caused my refrigeration units to shut down, and in one case in Martinique I had to replace the evaporator on the freezer under the seat.
I have determined that the failures occur most often as the boat battery voltage drops off (tough to keep at 100%), and that is one reason I am considering upgrading to Lithium batteries this year.
Maybe I have been too complacent and have just blindly bought new replacement pumps, but now (with 3 failed motors on board), I am determined to solve this issue once and for all.
Based on all the email conversation, can someone let me know which pump will work well? I have never checked the incoming voltage at the pump, but I am surprised to hear it is 12 volts vs. 24. I have used 24 volt motors in service, and I am not sure where the step-down occurs - maybe in the pump controller?
Any recommendations would be helpful, as I have seen many ideas.
Thanks,
Jamie Wendell
A54 Phantom

Teun BAAS
 

Hi Arno,

 

In your message below “ On the other hand the continuous flow of water makes keeps growth of whatever wants to settle in the circuit also minimal.   “ I was of the same opinion and feared my AC line would be even more gooked up than the fridge/freezer line but amazingly when I flushed, prior to my departure to USA, while on the hard all lines with fresh water the fridge & freezer exiting fresh water was far more discolored than the AC exiting fresh water.

 

Later on somebody explained to me that marine life can NOT survive in stationary salt water; therefore dies hence the bad smell. Apparently marine life needs flowing water to survive which explains all the growth on my sea chest strainer as well as the little in line filters/strainers I have for the freezer; AC and SPECTRA water maker lines.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

January 14, 2020 16:46:11

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arno Luijten via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 05:09
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your observations. I fully agree the insulation of especially the freezer is the main problem. As Oliver suggested in previous postings, changing the insulation with a better one really makes a big difference. But he also said it's a hell of a project. In the mean time we are using circulation pumps like cookies.
Fact is that Flojet claims to supply you a pump for continuous duty but it's not. Even at 80% duty cycle the thing drops dead after less then a year. That should not happen. As said by others, brushed motors are simply not suitable for this task.
So the idea of replacing the pump-motor itself is quite good but you will need to carefully select what motor to replace it with.

I've looked at the sea-water circuit and I'm thinking about a way to clean it, but that is not so simple. I think the easiest is to pump some descaling fluid though the circuit and let is soak for a while. On the other hand the continuous flow of water makes keeps growth of whatever wants to settle in the circuit also minimal.

It's a pity that Flojet does not sell a brushless variant of the pump. That would make the problem much better to cope with.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

Teun BAAS
 

Arno,

 

I am confused – I know that on the controller it mentions 12/24 volt but with the 3 Flojet pumps I purchased over the last year or so I always made sure they were 24 volt units. Do I need to have a 12 volt unit?

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

January 14, 2020 16:58:49

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arno Luijten via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 05:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

Hi Scott,

Great to hear I’m not the only one that has trouble with these pumps. I asked Flojet about this and they simply do not carry a brushless variant of this pump. I did have a look at a few other pumps that look very nice on paper (magnetic-drive and brushless). The two I tested (both centrifugal) did not supply enough pressure to overcome the resistance in the hoses/pipes. I now have al lot of pumps to do other stuff with :-(

Currently running a 12V/1.5A Flojet Quiet Quad but I’m sure it will die within a year despite the claim to be for continuous duty. It does stay cooler then the “official” Frigoboat pump that is actually a 24V shower-pump running at 12V. The pressure of the 12V model is adequate.

So I’m also interested in a more resilient solution to this problem. 

ngtnewington Newington
 

Hello all,

It seams that the gentle flow of the fridge cooling circuit running 80% of the time is the perfect environment for barnacle growth. This includes the raw water strainer as it too will have that trickle running through it. This explains the terrible fouling and no smell.

On my last boat I had a Frigoboat compressor.  It had a little heat exchanger for the hot refrigerant to run through which is through bolted onto the sea side of the hull and very streamlined.  There was therefore no need to run any cooling pump. The compressor had a fan as well, so with the “keel cooler” set up, (it was an option) one just disconnects the fan. When the boat is ashore one simply connects the fan back until the boat is launched. I owned the boat for over ten years and to be frank the system was better than what we have now. It never once gave me any cause for concern.  It was a modest fridge with only a small ice compartment, but the keel cooler is sized to fit the fridge size.

I reckon that it would be possible to do the same on the Amel. Each fridge unit would require its own keel cooler. One could do away with the sea water circuit altogether. It would require vacuuming the refrigerant, cutting the hot side copper pipe, soldering it to the keel cooler in line then re-vacuuming and re charging the system. I am not 100% sure if the existing compressors would support this but I do not see why not.

I am not proposing to do this at the moment, after all I still have three spare pumps, but it is food for thought.

Another possibility is to run the fridge cooling system with freshwater from the tank and back into the tank. I wander if the tank water would warm up, or weather it would lose the heat to the sea through the GRP hull. The tank water rests pretty much at the same temperature of the sea water. The problem is that I would not want to risk contaminating the tank water if there was a leak of refrigerant and you still have this pump running nearly the whole time.

Just some thoughts. 

I think if one of my fridge compressors were to fail I would be tempted to buy the Frigoboat compressor with keel cooler as replacement.

Nick

Amelia AML 54-019
Kilada Greece.


On 14 Jan 2020, at 23:59, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:

Arno,
 
I am confused – I know that on the controller it mentions 12/24 volt but with the 3 Flojet pumps I purchased over the last year or so I always made sure they were 24 volt units. Do I need to have a 12 volt unit?
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT  A54  #128
 
On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
January 14, 2020 16:58:49
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arno Luijten via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 05:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump
 
Hi Scott,

Great to hear I’m not the only one that has trouble with these pumps. I asked Flojet about this and they simply do not carry a brushless variant of this pump. I did have a look at a few other pumps that look very nice on paper (magnetic-drive and brushless). The two I tested (both centrifugal) did not supply enough pressure to overcome the resistance in the hoses/pipes. I now have al lot of pumps to do other stuff with :-(

Currently running a 12V/1.5A Flojet Quiet Quad but I’m sure it will die within a year despite the claim to be for continuous duty. It does stay cooler then the “official” Frigoboat pump that is actually a 24V shower-pump running at 12V. The pressure of the 12V model is adequate.

So I’m also interested in a more resilient solution to this problem.  


Matt Salatino
 

On our previous boat, we had fresh water from the water tanks, cooling two compressors for the fridge and deep freeze. It worked perfectly for 18 years, with no corrosion to the systems. It did not warm the water excessively, as the tanks are against the hull, and cooled by sea water. It certainly is something to consider.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Jan 15, 2020, at 5:15 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

Hello all,

It seams that the gentle flow of the fridge cooling circuit running 80% of the time is the perfect environment for barnacle growth. This includes the raw water strainer as it too will have that trickle running through it. This explains the terrible fouling and no smell.

On my last boat I had a Frigoboat compressor.  It had a little heat exchanger for the hot refrigerant to run through which is through bolted onto the sea side of the hull and very streamlined.  There was therefore no need to run any cooling pump. The compressor had a fan as well, so with the “keel cooler” set up, (it was an option) one just disconnects the fan. When the boat is ashore one simply connects the fan back until the boat is launched. I owned the boat for over ten years and to be frank the system was better than what we have now. It never once gave me any cause for concern.  It was a modest fridge with only a small ice compartment, but the keel cooler is sized to fit the fridge size.

I reckon that it would be possible to do the same on the Amel. Each fridge unit would require its own keel cooler. One could do away with the sea water circuit altogether. It would require vacuuming the refrigerant, cutting the hot side copper pipe, soldering it to the keel cooler in line then re-vacuuming and re charging the system. I am not 100% sure if the existing compressors would support this but I do not see why not.

I am not proposing to do this at the moment, after all I still have three spare pumps, but it is food for thought.

Another possibility is to run the fridge cooling system with freshwater from the tank and back into the tank. I wander if the tank water would warm up, or weather it would lose the heat to the sea through the GRP hull. The tank water rests pretty much at the same temperature of the sea water. The problem is that I would not want to risk contaminating the tank water if there was a leak of refrigerant and you still have this pump running nearly the whole time.

Just some thoughts. 

I think if one of my fridge compressors were to fail I would be tempted to buy the Frigoboat compressor with keel cooler as replacement.

Nick

Amelia AML 54-019
Kilada Greece.


On 14 Jan 2020, at 23:59, Teun BAAS <teun@...> wrote:

Arno,
 
I am confused – I know that on the controller it mentions 12/24 volt but with the 3 Flojet pumps I purchased over the last year or so I always made sure they were 24 volt units. Do I need to have a 12 volt unit?
 
Best Regards Teun
SV AMELIT  A54  #128
 
On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA
January 14, 2020 16:58:49
 
USA cell: +1 832 477 8842
AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909
 
You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT
 
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Arno Luijten via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 05:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump
 
Hi Scott,

Great to hear I’m not the only one that has trouble with these pumps. I asked Flojet about this and they simply do not carry a brushless variant of this pump. I did have a look at a few other pumps that look very nice on paper (magnetic-drive and brushless). The two I tested (both centrifugal) did not supply enough pressure to overcome the resistance in the hoses/pipes. I now have al lot of pumps to do other stuff with :-(

Currently running a 12V/1.5A Flojet Quiet Quad but I’m sure it will die within a year despite the claim to be for continuous duty. It does stay cooler then the “official” Frigoboat pump that is actually a 24V shower-pump running at 12V. The pressure of the 12V model is adequate.

So I’m also interested in a more resilient solution to this problem.  


Scott SV Tengah
 

On Frigoboat systems with multiple compressors, the pump interface is used. This also divides 24v to 12v to power the fridges. It has been explained to me that Frigoboat sells you a 24v pump and runs it at 12v. Theoretically it should be continuous duty at that point as it's running slower and cooler. This is not the case for the vast majority of us, it seems. It would be better if it coordinated compressor run times, but alas that's not the case.

Soraya - I purchased the Marco pump as my FIFTH one onboard. I still have 3 total Frigoboat pumps remaining so I will use all of those and then switch over to the Marco. Is the noise annoying? As noted, mine runs 80% duty cycle or so.

Stefan wrote on another post (https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/topic/pump/69698758?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,69698758) that he's used a magnetic pump that lasted a really long time. I looked at the PDF and it seems Y-1638-MM would work great if you set it to run about 4-6 liters per minute.
https://www.speck.de/fileadmin/user_upload/files/data_sheets/en/my-3-mm.pdf
It seems to draw very little power at that level and it appears to have a large head capacity. Someone smarter than me needs to figure out if that means it can self prime and push water through the circuit connecting all 3 compressors? It's 24v, which would mean you'd probably have to either just run it on the 12v that comes out of the Frigoboat pump interface or install a relay into the system and run it on 24v. Any engineer want to give an opinion on this solution?

FYI Frigoboat specifically states the water hoses should run parallel from the pump to the individual compressors and our A54 has them run sequentially. That probably just means after the first fridge, each subsequent fridge is getting slightly warmer water.

I believe the new Amels have keel cooled fridges. I believe that's a better solution but I try not to intentionally put more holes in the hull, so I won't be retrofitting in the middle of our circumnavigation!

Finally, my A54 is plumbed to use fresh water to cool the fridges. We have no growth issues and pumps still last 6 months. So that won't solve the short pump life problem. I tend to agree that the insulation is crap. On the under settee freezer, the items that are far from the evaporator "cage" often thaw out, even with the freezer on max. I have added supplemental sealing on the lid, which helps, but the problem still exists.

The FW water tank temp never gets noticeably warmer but we also never drop below 150 liters. As you know, it's in the keel, but GRP is not a fantastic thermal conductor, so there is some the temp will always be a bit higher than surrounding water, imo. There has been some discussion of lead solder on the copper piping. I am not sure if this is true or not, but to be safe we only cook and drink water from the  Seagull filter. I have used their portable version while backcountry camping and once found myself at a lake full of cow poop. We had no choice but to use the water and I am still alive today. In any event, most brass and copper fittings in homes have lead in them. 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Jamie Wendell
 

Scott, you have me really thinking about this thorn in my side. My boat is on the hard now, but I am going to check the voltage coming out of the pump controller. If it is really 12 volts, then I think I am "missing the boat" by using 24-volt pumps. I no longer have the original Amel installation, so I am at a loss as to what came with the boat. I do feel, though, that running a 24-volt pump at 12 volts is asking for the problems which I have experience multiple times. I will investigate and see what is going on - I am an electrical engineer but do not want to profess any sort of expertise at this time. My old boat used keel-cooled units and I never had any issues - no pump!!
I will find out in the spring here in the US.
Jamie
A54 Phantom.

Matt Salatino
 

My previous boat had a 12 volt system. The water circulation pumps for the fridge and freezer compressors ran at 5 volts, as the only needed low flow. I think you can safely run your pumps at 12 volts.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Jan 15, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:

Scott, you have me really thinking about this thorn in my side. My boat is on the hard now, but I am going to check the voltage coming out of the pump controller. If it is really 12 volts, then I think I am "missing the boat" by using 24-volt pumps. I no longer have the original Amel installation, so I am at a loss as to what came with the boat. I do feel, though, that running a 24-volt pump at 12 volts is asking for the problems which I have experience multiple times. I will investigate and see what is going on - I am an electrical engineer but do not want to profess any sort of expertise at this time. My old boat used keel-cooled units and I never had any issues - no pump!!
I will find out in the spring here in the US.
Jamie
A54 Phantom.

 

The following is my understanding: The pump controller (blue box in 54s) receives voltage input from each of the Danfoss compressor controllers. The "fan output" terminal on the Danfoss is the output terminal that connects to the pump controller. The Danfoss fan output is 12 volts, regardless of whether the refrigeration unit is 12 or 24 volts.

BTW, the blue box may no longer be available, unless old stock. Frigoboat replaced it with a relay for each refrigerator unit.

I hope this helps. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 7:42 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Scott, you have me really thinking about this thorn in my side. My boat is on the hard now, but I am going to check the voltage coming out of the pump controller. If it is really 12 volts, then I think I am "missing the boat" by using 24-volt pumps. I no longer have the original Amel installation, so I am at a loss as to what came with the boat. I do feel, though, that running a 24-volt pump at 12 volts is asking for the problems which I have experience multiple times. I will investigate and see what is going on - I am an electrical engineer but do not want to profess any sort of expertise at this time. My old boat used keel-cooled units and I never had any issues - no pump!!
I will find out in the spring here in the US.
Jamie
A54 Phantom.

Teun BAAS
 

Bill,

 

Gan you give the Frigoboat part number for the blue box mentioned below?

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

On the hard in COOMERA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

January 16, 2020 12:54:01

 

USA cell: +1 832 477 8842

AUSTRALIA cell: +61 5951 8909

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 07:09
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

The following is my understanding: The pump controller (blue box in 54s) receives voltage input from each of the Danfoss compressor controllers. The "fan output" terminal on the Danfoss is the output terminal that connects to the pump controller. The Danfoss fan output is 12 volts, regardless of whether the refrigeration unit is 12 or 24 volts.

 

BTW, the blue box may no longer be available, unless old stock. Frigoboat replaced it with a relay for each refrigerator unit.

 

I hope this helps. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

 

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 7:42 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:

Scott, you have me really thinking about this thorn in my side. My boat is on the hard now, but I am going to check the voltage coming out of the pump controller. If it is really 12 volts, then I think I am "missing the boat" by using 24-volt pumps. I no longer have the original Amel installation, so I am at a loss as to what came with the boat. I do feel, though, that running a 24-volt pump at 12 volts is asking for the problems which I have experience multiple times. I will investigate and see what is going on - I am an electrical engineer but do not want to profess any sort of expertise at this time. My old boat used keel-cooled units and I never had any issues - no pump!!
I will find out in the spring here in the US.
Jamie
A54 Phantom.