Topics

A54 fridge circulation pump

Jamie Wendell
 

Matt, I agree with you the term "once and for all" is a relative term, but I like to think on the good side - that it will significantly improve what I have right now. Or at least I will have "fun" trying out something new and different. 13 years is a good "once and for all" for me at this point!!!

Scott, the motor I ordered is 22-48 volts, so will presumably require 24 volts input. I don't see a 12-volt version, but have not looked extensively.

I might be able to output 24 volts from the VESC controller, but I really need to get all these things and start experimenting.

If all else fails, I can simply convert to 24 volts at the pump interface in the blue box. I do that in other cases (both up and down) on the boat anyway. And yes, I have that same blue box now. Or I can use a simple relay, as you point out - easy to do with the 24-volt supply in the engine room.

Let me see what I can find out once I get delivery.

Thanks,
Jamie
A54 Phantom #44

 

Scott, 

You hit the nail on the head. I was ready to shut this thread down when you made your comment. I believe that Oliver Henrichsen is a very good engineer and has a working, unique, and clearly a good solution to an issue that impacts all 54, 55, and possibly 50 & 60 owners. The problem I have with this thread is that the solution is still vague and we have over 60 posts. It seems like a great solution, but we are going nowhere.

Oliver's words and my comments in RED:
  1. He says, "24v batterie directly to the VESC" OK, the new pump motor is running on 24VDC and I assume the Danfoss Controller is no longer used for the water pump.
  2. He says, " The motor/pump speed is open to be controlled from 0 to 100%" I assume by the VESC?      
  3. He says, "My fridge/freezer controller is part of the ship Computer system and connected to NMEA2K bus. The original thermostats are no more used. Instead precise electronic thermometers are in both devices. These still are temperature sensors, or in English, thermostats, and is NMEA2k part of the control system?
  4. He says, "The controller checks on these thermometers and decides about cooling needs." What is the "controller?
  5. He says, "If one unit is above set threshold the controller looks also for the other and if ever possible colls both at the same time. This will further reduce working time of the raw water pump." Is this logic handled by the VESC and does the user set the parameters by connecting to the VESC via the USB connector?
  6. He says,  The controller sends serial commands to the VESC. but the VESC is very versatile so its also possible to regulate it in a simple way."  Again, what is the controller and how is it linked to the VESC
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar
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On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:25 PM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Jamie,

The output from the Frigoboat E51385 box is 12v. As Bill mentioned, it's the fan controller on the compressor that outputs 12v, seems the Frigoboat box only passes that through.

Not sure if you have the same E51385 box, but if so, we need to figure out a couple of things:

- Can the VESC controller simply get a control input of say, 12v and then output the right voltage/current to run the brushless motor at a specified rpm?
- Is there a 12v motor available?

For the latter, if we can't get a 12v brushless motor that works, we could simply run a hella relay energized by the Frigoboat E51385 box and passthrough 24v. At least on A54 #69, there's a pair of 24v posts right near the chain wash pump.

I went and checked my new Flojet pump today. It's damn hot and the brushes are probably wearing down fast. We need to figure this out before I lose anymore food.

As an aside - Mohammad, what pump model is on your boat? Given that the rest of us A54 owners have experienced 6-12 month pump life, I still believe your longevity is due to your non-tropical, part-time, no freezer use case, perhaps a previous owner of your boat found a pump solution that we can all use.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hi Paul,
We will sail up and down the islands and stay along the Westindies with our base on Martinique for this season. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 10:50 Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown <paul.dowd@...> wrote:

Hi Oliver,

 

We met in Culatra. Welcome to the Caribbean! How long to you plan to stay in Martinique?

 

Cheers,

Paul

S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Sent: 05 February 2020 07:24
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

Hello Carina,

 

Since I changed my fridge cooling to brushless and VESC CONTROLLER we had no pump breakdowns anymore. Now we use it in tropical conditions in the Caribbean and its still working fine.

You will need some kind of setup to switch the Motor on and of.

I use a microcontroller instead of the original Thermostat that regulates also the temperature control of fridge and freezer.

If u need help let me know

I am interested how you get on. 

 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 

Martinique

 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 04:34 CARINA HAMMARLUND <syultimo@...> wrote:

Thank you Olivier for sharing this info!
We have had lots of problems with the pumps during our 4 year sail in Pacific. Never lasting longer than 5-6 months, sometimes even shorter.

We just ordered the scooter motor and will try your set up! 
--
Carina
SV Ultimo
Amel 54 No 165


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

My VESC gets its 24V power from 24V Emgine room point. 
It gets serial bus commands from an ARM32 MCU. 
My system takes temperatures from inside freezer, fridge, compressor fridge, compressor freezer, raw water temperature in its calculation to controll all cooling needs.
It adapts the raw water cooling pump speed according to sea water temperature and compressor temp. 
This might be over kill but provides the most efficient operation. 
As you got already digital controlls you may only like to switch the cooling pump. It would be still possible to adjust the motor speed to raw water temp. 
If you cant setup your own controller I could provide a unit, based on my software, adapted to digital thermostats. 
My unit also writes a protocoll of the operating times of fridge / freezer and temperature curve with alarms. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 13:54 Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Oliver, I just ordered the Censored Motor and VESC Controller from AliExpress. I am going to try to hook all this up and see if I can get it to work for my 3-fridge system.
Where did you source your 24-voltage input? What microcontroller did you use for on/off or speed control? I switched my thermostats to digital controls already, so I am no longer using mechanical thermostats.
Any inputs would be good as I await delivery from China. Any wiring schematics or photos you all could share???

I really hope this installation solves this problem once and for all..............

Thanks,
Jamie Wendell A54 Phantom #44

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hi Bill,

I went out for sailing for the last couple of month and was not able to answer the questions that my thread implied. As there is so much response to this topic and I am a bit more station, I will try to point this topic in the right direction.
I am now on Martinique and helping also other boats with technical issues.

In the following I will give answers to your commented questions.

My (Oliver) statements and Bills comments in red. My (Oliver) answers under it. 

  1. He says, "24v batterie directly to the VESC" OK, the new pump motor is running on 24VDC and I assume the Danfoss Controller is no longer used for the water pump.
  2. He says, " The motor/pump speed is open to be controlled from 0 to 100%" I assume by the VESC?      
  3. He says, "My fridge/freezer controller is part of the ship Computer system and connected to NMEA2K bus. The original thermostats are no more used. Instead precise electronic thermometers are in both devices. These still are temperature sensors, or in English, thermostats, and is NMEA2k part of the control system?
  4. He says, "The controller checks on these thermometers and decides about cooling needs." What is the "controller?
  5. He says, "If one unit is above set threshold the controller looks also for the other and if ever possible colls both at the same time. This will further reduce working time of the raw water pump." Is this logic handled by the VESC and does the user set the parameters by connecting to the VESC via the USB connector?
  6. He says,  The controller sends serial commands to the VESC. but the VESC is very versatile so its also possible to regulate it in a simple way."  Again, what is the controller and how is it linked to the VESC
To 1. To understand the setup you need to know the components used:
a) a 24 V brushless pump, as the name says no wear on brushes like before, only the ballbearings wear and they are easy to change and cost 2 usd. Beside that the original quad pumphead is reused. Most of us got a bag of spares from the old worn pumps. I would go with AMELs 24 V as 12V is a step back and we like to have a well powered pump. 
b) A brushless motor needs a driver. In this case a VESC is used to controll the motor. VESC is short for Vedder Electronic Speed Controller designed by a clever swedish guy as open surce project. Version 3.x will do. 
c) to tell the VESC the speed to spinn the motor and start or stop the motor, I use an Microcontroller (MCU)  that sends serial commands. This MCU replaces in my setup the E51385 box and the thermostats in the fridge/freezer because the MCU can do much more than only switch the motor on / off. Its the brain of the cooling installation on my boat and provides advanced efficency. 
To 2. Yes, the VESC controlls the motor speed. 
To 3. NMEA2K is in this stage of the project not used to controll the system. It only provides system data, like temperatures, to other NMEA2K devices as user information. 
To 4. The controller is the MCU described above. 
To 5. This logic is programmed in the MCU that controlls it all. As I said the brain of the system that controlls and comunicates. 
To 6. See description above. The VESC offers, beside the serial port, a second port, where a servo controller can be used. There is no option on the VESC to be switched on/off by 12V or a Relay, its not designed for this purpose. Please read my more simple aproach below. 

I designed a more simple adapter with a bit less efficency but that does not need the MCU. This adapter is hooked up directly to the E51385 Box at the pump connection instead of the pump. 
The adapter tells the VESC to start /stop the pump and adapts the rpm according to the raw water temperature at the raw water manifold. And provides 24 V to the VESC. I guess this is what most owners prefer without need to change the complete cooling controll. It just replaces the brushed pump by a brushless pump and the brushless motor controller. Problem solved. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hi Bill,

I went out for sailing for the last couple of month and was not able to answer the questions that my thread implied. As there is so much response to this topic and I am a bit more station, I will try to point this topic in the right direction.
I am now on Martinique and helping also other boats with technical issues.

In the following I will give answers to your commented questions.

My (Oliver) statements and Bills comments in red. My (Oliver) answers under it. 

  1. He says, "24v batterie directly to the VESC" OK, the new pump motor is running on 24VDC and I assume the Danfoss Controller is no longer used for the water pump.
  2. He says, " The motor/pump speed is open to be controlled from 0 to 100%" I assume by the VESC?      
  3. He says, "My fridge/freezer controller is part of the ship Computer system and connected to NMEA2K bus. The original thermostats are no more used. Instead precise electronic thermometers are in both devices. These still are temperature sensors, or in English, thermostats, and is NMEA2k part of the control system?
  4. He says, "The controller checks on these thermometers and decides about cooling needs." What is the "controller?
  5. He says, "If one unit is above set threshold the controller looks also for the other and if ever possible colls both at the same time. This will further reduce working time of the raw water pump." Is this logic handled by the VESC and does the user set the parameters by connecting to the VESC via the USB connector?
  6. He says,  The controller sends serial commands to the VESC. but the VESC is very versatile so its also possible to regulate it in a simple way."  Again, what is the controller and how is it linked to the VESC
To 1. To understand the setup you need to know the components used:
a) a 24 V brushless pump, as the name says no wear on brushes like before, only the ballbearings wear and they are easy to change and cost 2 usd. Beside that the original quad pumphead is reused. Most of us got a bag of spares from the old worn pumps. I would go with AMELs 24 V as 12V is a step back and we like to have a well powered pump. 
b) A brushless motor needs a driver. In this case a VESC is used to controll the motor. VESC is short for Vedder Electronic Speed Controller designed by a clever swedish guy as open surce project. Version 3.x will do. 
c) to tell the VESC the speed to spinn the motor and start or stop the motor, I use an Microcontroller (MCU)  that sends serial commands. This MCU replaces in my setup the E51385 box and the thermostats in the fridge/freezer because the MCU can do much more than only switch the motor on / off. Its the brain of the cooling installation on my boat and provides advanced efficency. 
To 2. Yes, the VESC controlls the motor speed. 
To 3. NMEA2K is in this stage of the project not used to controll the system. It only provides system data, like temperatures, to other NMEA2K devices as user information. 
To 4. The controller is the MCU described above. 
To 5. This logic is programmed in the MCU that controlls it all. As I said the brain of the system that controlls and comunicates. 
To 6. See description above. The VESC offers, beside the serial port, a second port, where a servo controller can be used. There is no option on the VESC to be switched on/off by 12V or a Relay, its not designed for this purpose. Please read my more simple aproach below. 

I designed a more simple adapter with a bit less efficency but that does not need the MCU. This adapter is hooked up directly to the E51385 Box at the pump connection instead of the pump. 
The adapter tells the VESC to start /stop the pump and adapts the rpm according to the raw water temperature at the raw water manifold. And provides 24 V to the VESC. I guess this is what most owners prefer without need to change the complete cooling controll. It just replaces the brushed pump by a brushless pump and the brushless motor controller. Problem solved. 

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020, 15:11 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Scott, 

You hit the nail on the head. I was ready to shut this thread down when you made your comment. I believe that Oliver Henrichsen is a very good engineer and has a working, unique, and clearly a good solution to an issue that impacts all 54, 55, and possibly 50 & 60 owners. The problem I have with this thread is that the solution is still vague and we have over 60 posts. It seems like a great solution, but we are going nowhere.

Oliver's words and my comments in RED:
  1. He says, "24v batterie directly to the VESC" OK, the new pump motor is running on 24VDC and I assume the Danfoss Controller is no longer used for the water pump.
  2. He says, " The motor/pump speed is open to be controlled from 0 to 100%" I assume by the VESC?      
  3. He says, "My fridge/freezer controller is part of the ship Computer system and connected to NMEA2K bus. The original thermostats are no more used. Instead precise electronic thermometers are in both devices. These still are temperature sensors, or in English, thermostats, and is NMEA2k part of the control system?
  4. He says, "The controller checks on these thermometers and decides about cooling needs." What is the "controller?
  5. He says, "If one unit is above set threshold the controller looks also for the other and if ever possible colls both at the same time. This will further reduce working time of the raw water pump." Is this logic handled by the VESC and does the user set the parameters by connecting to the VESC via the USB connector?
  6. He says,  The controller sends serial commands to the VESC. but the VESC is very versatile so its also possible to regulate it in a simple way."  Again, what is the controller and how is it linked to the VESC
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 12:25 PM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Jamie,

The output from the Frigoboat E51385 box is 12v. As Bill mentioned, it's the fan controller on the compressor that outputs 12v, seems the Frigoboat box only passes that through.

Not sure if you have the same E51385 box, but if so, we need to figure out a couple of things:

- Can the VESC controller simply get a control input of say, 12v and then output the right voltage/current to run the brushless motor at a specified rpm?
- Is there a 12v motor available?

For the latter, if we can't get a 12v brushless motor that works, we could simply run a hella relay energized by the Frigoboat E51385 box and passthrough 24v. At least on A54 #69, there's a pair of 24v posts right near the chain wash pump.

I went and checked my new Flojet pump today. It's damn hot and the brushes are probably wearing down fast. We need to figure this out before I lose anymore food.

As an aside - Mohammad, what pump model is on your boat? Given that the rest of us A54 owners have experienced 6-12 month pump life, I still believe your longevity is due to your non-tropical, part-time, no freezer use case, perhaps a previous owner of your boat found a pump solution that we can all use.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Oliver,

Thanks for responding. I think you have the best solution we have heard of - we will all be very grateful if we can solve this annoying problem. A few questions for you:

1) Will you be willing to sell me this "more simple adapter"? You're obviously far more versed in electrical engineering than I am. I currently have the setup with 1 fridge and 2 fridge/freezers which each have a Frigoboat W50F compressor. The 1 fridge has a built in thermostat and the 2 fridge/freezers have this thermostat: https://penguinfrigo.co.uk/product/frigomatic-twin-thermostat-for-fridge-or-freezer/.    Those are fed to the E51385 Box. 

2) My system uses fresh water to cool the fridges. I assume I can put a temp sensor in the freshwater return? The additional complication not necessary for me, but if you think it drastically improves efficiency, I'm willing to do it.

3) Also, given my basic setup, is there a way to coordinate the compressor run times without adding the MCU? I believe I could reduce pump duty cycle if the fridges/freezers would try to run at the same time. Again, if it's too complicated, I don't need it.

4) Is there a 12v pump available? I would rather use the 12v output of the E51385 than put in another relay.

I would assume if I use a 24v motor, the way to get 24v would be to use the E51385 output to control a Hella relay, which would then pass through 24v that I get from the posts near the chain wash pump. Since I'm at 80%+ duty cycle, I would rather not have a relay that is energized all the time for heat, longevity and energy consumption reasons.

Your solution is the best we've seen and I'm sure many of us will want to copy it. I'm hoping it is something that can be installed and managed by someone without your technical skills.

Thanks in advance

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 

Scott,

Oliver states: "This adapter is hooked up directly to the E51385 Box"  
Again, you found the exact question to ask. What is the "adapter?"   

My guess also is that the "adapter" is a relay, taking 12 volts from the Danfoss "fan" output on one side of the relay, and closing 24 volts on the other side of the relay, thus energizing a 24-volt circuit to the VESC which utilizes programmable logic and different sensors to energize a 24-volt pump motor. I believe that this "relay" would need to be installed for each of the refrigeration units. If that is true, and the primary goal is to get longer life from the motor, then why not simply use all of the existing Amel installed components, including the E51385 pump controller, except substitute a 12-volt brushless motor for the Flowjet motor? I believe that Oliver has designed and installed something that works well for him, but we are 68 messages in this thread and the system Oliver designed still eludes enough description for even an electrical engineer to duplicate.

I really think that I should shut this thread down because it is very misleading to all of the non-engineers, who happen to be a very large majority of our members. In fact, we are still guessing about this system. I saw where one member has already ordered some components. 

But, I am very interested in the specifics of Oliver's solution. If we cannot get to a specific duplicatable plan, I will shut this thread down and those interested will need to contact Oliver directly and off-group.


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
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On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:44 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Oliver,

Thanks for responding. I think you have the best solution we have heard of - we will all be very grateful if we can solve this annoying problem. A few questions for you:

1) Will you be willing to sell me this "more simple adapter"? You're obviously far more versed in electrical engineering than I am. I currently have the setup with 1 fridge and 2 fridge/freezers which each have a Frigoboat W50F compressor. The 1 fridge has a built in thermostat and the 2 fridge/freezers have this thermostat: https://penguinfrigo.co.uk/product/frigomatic-twin-thermostat-for-fridge-or-freezer/.    Those are fed to the E51385 Box. 

2) My system uses fresh water to cool the fridges. I assume I can put a temp sensor in the freshwater return? The additional complication not necessary for me, but if you think it drastically improves efficiency, I'm willing to do it.

3) Also, given my basic setup, is there a way to coordinate the compressor run times without adding the MCU? I believe I could reduce pump duty cycle if the fridges/freezers would try to run at the same time. Again, if it's too complicated, I don't need it.

4) Is there a 12v pump available? I would rather use the 12v output of the E51385 than put in another relay.

I would assume if I use a 24v motor, the way to get 24v would be to use the E51385 output to control a Hella relay, which would then pass through 24v that I get from the posts near the chain wash pump. Since I'm at 80%+ duty cycle, I would rather not have a relay that is energized all the time for heat, longevity and energy consumption reasons.

Your solution is the best we've seen and I'm sure many of us will want to copy it. I'm hoping it is something that can be installed and managed by someone without your technical skills.

Thanks in advance

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Jamie Wendell
 

Thanks Bill. I agree with you completely, as I am one of the 2 whom I believe have ordered the parts Oliver noted.

I remain a bit confused myself, but I do intend to do my own homework and see if I can make his ideas work for me. In the event I am successful, I will report exactly what I did for others to consider. I would do so in a new thread, so as not to continue this one.

I hope that is acceptable to everyone out there.

Over and out for now.
Thanks,
Jamie
Phantom A54 #44

Sv Garulfo
 

Hi Bill,

Being the thread OP, i agree it’s getting a bit too long and confusing. 

We can agree that there isn’t yet a final, definitive answer to the original question about the best way to address the longevity issues of the A54 fridge circulation pump.

Ideally, Oliver would write up and share a document that interested owners (including myself) can review, extend and finalise for laymen to potentially implement his solution.

Ideally, Oliver would also gather data about performances of his setup in tropical waters, much warmer than Portugal’s, to ensure the improvement still exists and may therefore help most of the ‘disappointed’ users.

Best regards,


Thomas & Soraya,
GARULFO 
A54-122
Nuku Hiva, French Polynesia 







On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 at 08:34, Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Thanks Bill. I agree with you completely, as I am one of the 2 whom I believe have ordered the parts Oliver noted.

I remain a bit confused myself, but I do intend to do my own homework and see if I can make his ideas work for me. In the event I am successful, I will report exactly what I did for others to consider. I would do so in a new thread, so as not to continue this one.

I hope that is acceptable to everyone out there.

Over and out for now.
Thanks,
Jamie
Phantom A54 #44

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

I will answer tomorrow more in detail bcs its late now. 

So far just a word in advance to prevent from guessing too much.

1. A brushless motor as we use it is in no way a motor where you just hook up some power and it starts turning. 
These motors need a precise timing on their coils there fore they are:
-Highly efficient
-light weight
-very powerfull
-rpm controllable
-no wear parts exept ballbearings
-ignitionproof

2. They are controlled by micro computers. The microcomputer connects to the AMEL hardware. 
There are no rellays involved. Relays are inefficient. 
I can provide a design note, its manly only 3 component groups, but it will not help anybody because the involved software is the key. 


3. Yes, I am willing to set up a pump system that is simple to install and replaces the old pump. I imagine it will be just a modern replacement to get rid of the problems.

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 


On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 09:44 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Oliver,

Thanks for responding. I think you have the best solution we have heard of - we will all be very grateful if we can solve this annoying problem. A few questions for you:

1) Will you be willing to sell me this "more simple adapter"? You're obviously far more versed in electrical engineering than I am. I currently have the setup with 1 fridge and 2 fridge/freezers which each have a Frigoboat W50F compressor. The 1 fridge has a built in thermostat and the 2 fridge/freezers have this thermostat: https://penguinfrigo.co.uk/product/frigomatic-twin-thermostat-for-fridge-or-freezer/.    Those are fed to the E51385 Box. 

2) My system uses fresh water to cool the fridges. I assume I can put a temp sensor in the freshwater return? The additional complication not necessary for me, but if you think it drastically improves efficiency, I'm willing to do it.

3) Also, given my basic setup, is there a way to coordinate the compressor run times without adding the MCU? I believe I could reduce pump duty cycle if the fridges/freezers would try to run at the same time. Again, if it's too complicated, I don't need it.

4) Is there a 12v pump available? I would rather use the 12v output of the E51385 than put in another relay.

I would assume if I use a 24v motor, the way to get 24v would be to use the E51385 output to control a Hella relay, which would then pass through 24v that I get from the posts near the chain wash pump. Since I'm at 80%+ duty cycle, I would rather not have a relay that is energized all the time for heat, longevity and energy consumption reasons.

Your solution is the best we've seen and I'm sure many of us will want to copy it. I'm hoping it is something that can be installed and managed by someone without your technical skills.

Thanks in advance

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Matt Salatino
 

Do you mean brushless, or stepper motor? Two different animals, though both are brushless.....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:53 PM, Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@...> wrote:

Hello,

I will answer tomorrow more in detail bcs its late now. 

So far just a word in advance to prevent from guessing too much.

1. A brushless motor as we use it is in no way a motor where you just hook up some power and it starts turning. 
These motors need a precise timing on their coils there fore they are:
-Highly efficient
-light weight
-very powerfull
-rpm controllable
-no wear parts exept ballbearings
-ignitionproof

2. They are controlled by micro computers. The microcomputer connects to the AMEL hardware. 
There are no rellays involved. Relays are inefficient. 
I can provide a design note, its manly only 3 component groups, but it will not help anybody because the involved software is the key. 


3. Yes, I am willing to set up a pump system that is simple to install and replaces the old pump. I imagine it will be just a modern replacement to get rid of the problems.

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique 


On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 09:44 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Oliver,

Thanks for responding. I think you have the best solution we have heard of - we will all be very grateful if we can solve this annoying problem. A few questions for you:

1) Will you be willing to sell me this "more simple adapter"? You're obviously far more versed in electrical engineering than I am. I currently have the setup with 1 fridge and 2 fridge/freezers which each have a Frigoboat W50F compressor. The 1 fridge has a built in thermostat and the 2 fridge/freezers have this thermostat: https://penguinfrigo.co.uk/product/frigomatic-twin-thermostat-for-fridge-or-freezer/.    Those are fed to the E51385 Box. 

2) My system uses fresh water to cool the fridges. I assume I can put a temp sensor in the freshwater return? The additional complication not necessary for me, but if you think it drastically improves efficiency, I'm willing to do it.

3) Also, given my basic setup, is there a way to coordinate the compressor run times without adding the MCU? I believe I could reduce pump duty cycle if the fridges/freezers would try to run at the same time. Again, if it's too complicated, I don't need it.

4) Is there a 12v pump available? I would rather use the 12v output of the E51385 than put in another relay.

I would assume if I use a 24v motor, the way to get 24v would be to use the E51385 output to control a Hella relay, which would then pass through 24v that I get from the posts near the chain wash pump. Since I'm at 80%+ duty cycle, I would rather not have a relay that is energized all the time for heat, longevity and energy consumption reasons.

Your solution is the best we've seen and I'm sure many of us will want to copy it. I'm hoping it is something that can be installed and managed by someone without your technical skills.

Thanks in advance

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Oliver -

Any luck with this?

I also appreciate Thomas and others' willingness to translate engineer speak into something us laymen will understand. :)


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mark & Debbie Mueller
 

Hope the new pump works out, it would be nice to find a substitute for the Flojet.  When you get it installed if you have a question about the flow due to the head pressure measure the discharge rate where it exits the hull and see if the volume is adequate.  Good luck.
--
Mark Mueller
Brass Ring  A54

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello, 

My pump is based on a brushless motor, not a stepper motor. 

You asked me about building an "adapter" from old fridge system to VESC conrolled brushless pump. 

My adapter replaces the original controll box. 

It has the following features:

1. If any fridge freezer signals cooling needs, it activates the VESC brushless pump.

2. Rpm can be regulated from 0 to 100%

3. Pump can be stopped by switch

4. LED display of operation. Flash every 10 sec in standby. 
Flasch every sec when pump is active. 

5. Energy consumption. In standby some mycro uA. In operation about   15 mA.

6. Connections
- 24 Volt
- serial port VESC
- signal wires coming from fridges freezers

As I understand, you ordered the VESC and the brushless motor yourself? 

Please contact me by my email, I like to send you a Video how the Pump is setup. 

Fair winds

Oliver from Vela Nautica Amel54 #39 
Martinique

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:47 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:
Oliver -

Any luck with this?

I also appreciate Thomas and others' willingness to translate engineer speak into something us laymen will understand. :)


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

We just had another Flojet pump die. This time after 5 months. Even better, it seems the Flojet 4105-343 pump we have been using is discontinued. I will take the leap to try Oliver's brushless pump solution.

Oliver - I just ordered the aliexpress pump/controller that you mentioned and would love to see your video. I sent an email a few months back but never heard back from you. Be great if you could post the fridge pump installation video on Youtube for everyone to see!

One thing that may become an issue is that the diaphragm part of the Flojet pump (which is repurposed for Oliver's setup) is also a wear part. I know someone who uses Flojet pumps in their coffee business and his pumps die when the diaphragms fail. Good thing I have a handful of used diaphragms from my multiple failed Flojets. :)

Anyone else try Oliver's solution (or any other pump) and succeed?
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Arno Luijten
 

Hi Scott,

Hope you are doing well. I've looked into this problem as well. I tried to find an alternate waterpump but the 12 Volt/1-1.5 Amp requirement is not easy to satisfy. Replacing the motor with a brushless one is a very clever idea. Finding a suitable motor is not so easy though. Most of them require some external controller making installation complicated and a bit prone to errors. Also I'm not too happy with an untested motor/controller combo. What happens if this goes south somewhere in the Pacific. So careful selection of fuses is the least to do for this solution.
Personally I would love to find a motor suitable for this application with integrated controller but I'm still searching. Until then I just keep a number of these Flojet pumps on stock and live with the life-expectancy.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121

CARINA HAMMARLUND
 

Hi Oliver,
Very good information 👍🏻

Di you have any photos from When you changed the insulation? We’re thinking of doing the same ...
--
Carina
SV Ultimo
Amel 54 No 165

Jamie Wendell
 

Scott, I know this thread should not be used and we should create a new one. I just "lost" 2 more refrigerator pumps. I took them to a motor rebuild shop in Annapolis, and they told me they are worn beyond repair.

I saw your post about taking the leap into the brushless motor world, hoping to solve the pump dilemma. I will tell you I finally got the parts Oliver recommended - after almost 6 months. Unfortunately the motor he suggested has a 10mm diameter shaft. We need an 8mm shaft, so I cannot use that unless I create a reducer of some sort or order a different motor.

I will try to get the controller working for curiosity, but without the ability to connect the motor to the pump, I will likely have to abandon the project and just keep buying Flojet 4106 pumps (the newer version I believe, vs 4105 series).

I did notice that March Pumps offers a centrifugal pump driven by a brushless 24V motor. Although it is a bit expensive and only suitable (in its normal non-self-priming service) for salt-water cooling where the pump remains flooded, it might be worth buying it and using only the motor. If it works it would stop us having to buy many $100 motors that go bad in 6 months or less. The motor looks as if it will work directly with a steady 24V supply - no custom controller needed. Of course, the shaft would have to work here as well. If we can get the shaft to mate, all we would need is a relay to turn on the pump via a 24V supply in the engine room and the Frigoboat 12V output signal.

May be worth a shot..................

Jamie
Phantom A54 #44

Robert Giroux
 

Any of these fit your application? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=8mm+to+10mm+Bore+Stainless+Steel+coupling&

 

 

Regards,

Robert Giroux

Future Amel Owner

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 10:05 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] A54 fridge circulation pump

 

Scott, I know this thread should not be used and we should create a new one. I just "lost" 2 more refrigerator pumps. I took them to a motor rebuild shop in Annapolis, and they told me they are worn beyond repair.

I saw your post about taking the leap into the brushless motor world, hoping to solve the pump dilemma. I will tell you I finally got the parts Oliver recommended - after almost 6 months. Unfortunately the motor he suggested has a 10mm diameter shaft. We need an 8mm shaft, so I cannot use that unless I create a reducer of some sort or order a different motor.

I will try to get the controller working for curiosity, but without the ability to connect the motor to the pump, I will likely have to abandon the project and just keep buying Flojet 4106 pumps (the newer version I believe, vs 4105 series).

I did notice that March Pumps offers a centrifugal pump driven by a brushless 24V motor. Although it is a bit expensive and only suitable (in its normal non-self-priming service) for salt-water cooling where the pump remains flooded, it might be worth buying it and using only the motor. If it works it would stop us having to buy many $100 motors that go bad in 6 months or less. The motor looks as if it will work directly with a steady 24V supply - no custom controller needed. Of course, the shaft would have to work here as well. If we can get the shaft to mate, all we would need is a relay to turn on the pump via a 24V supply in the engine room and the Frigoboat 12V output signal.

May be worth a shot..................

Jamie
Phantom A54 #44