ACMO v Kos Hama X rigging wire


Paul Osterberg
 

Hello!
There s a claim that ACMO rigging wire are superior to other rigging wire, in what way is it superior? A common rigging wire is Hama X by Kos ( one of the largest wire producers )
Both Kos and ACMO are in 316 steel
Kos min breaking strength is for 10 mm wire 8400 kg
Acmo min breaking strength for 10 mm is 7900 kg ca 6% less.
Concerning stretch I have not found any info, but assume stretch rather linear to braking strength
Paul on SY Kerpa AM#259, Lagos Portugal 


 

Paul,

ACMO uses German wire and makes their own fittings, turnbuckles, etc. They make swage or mechanical fittings. They offer chrome-plated bronze turnbuckles or stainless steel turnbuckles with a bronze insert.

The primary reasons that ACMO should be considered the best supplier to Amel owners are:
  1. ACMO is the original supplier to Amel and has made standing rigging for Amel for at least the past 40 years
  2. ACMO has the exact measurements and specifications from Amel
  3. As Amel changes those specifications as they did twice for the Amel 54, ACMO is advised by Amel.
I am aware of at least 2 Amels that were re-rigged with something other than ACMO, where neither the rigger nor the owner was aware of Amel's updated changes to rigging wire size. If the owners had used ACMO, they would not had to change the newly installed rigging at their expense.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 11:00 AM Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:
Hello!
There s a claim that ACMO rigging wire are superior to other rigging wire, in what way is it superior? A common rigging wire is Hama X by Kos ( one of the largest wire producers )
Both Kos and ACMO are in 316 steel
Kos min breaking strength is for 10 mm wire 8400 kg
Acmo min breaking strength for 10 mm is 7900 kg ca 6% less.
Concerning stretch I have not found any info, but assume stretch rather linear to braking strength
Paul on SY Kerpa AM#259, Lagos Portugal 


Paul Osterberg
 

Thank you Bill, But have can they miss the dimension on the wire? I assume the original size should be good enough.
Paul


 

Paul, in the cases I was referring to the rigger used the same size wire that was originally installed. But, Amel twice changed the size of the wire on the 54 main shrouds. Neither the rigger nor the owner was aware of the change.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:06 PM Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, But have can they miss the dimension on the wire? I assume the original size should be good enough.
Paul


Paul Osterberg
 

Bill
I asked Acmo, the cost including fittings was 10631 € fd, remains installation and tuning, The cost to have the whole job done with Kos wire is 9100 € with Selden fittings and the turnbuckles for The fore stay that has to be ACMO, that including the masts on and off. To motivate the Extra cost of  minimum 3000 €, there has to be substantial advantages, not only the measurements. 
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259, Lagos, Portugal


 

Paul,

I am careful not to criticize a vendor or product in this Group because it is against our rules. Instead I will focus on positive comments as long as I have positive comments to offer.

1.) ACMO is the OEM provider to Amel for rigging and have been for over 40 years.
2.) ACMO is up-to-date with Amel specs. 
3.)ACMO is a designated Preferred Vendor to my Yacht School  clients and I believe about 50 of my  clients have purchased rigging kits from ACMO. 
4.) Two of the three riggers I will recommend worldwide buy ACMO rigging material.

All of the above said, you should buy from the supplier you feel is best for you. It is possible that the company you choose will be as good or better than ACMO.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021, 1:35 PM Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:
Bill
I asked Acmo, the cost including fittings was 10631 € fd, remains installation and tuning, The cost to have the whole job done with Kos wire is 9100 € with Selden fittings and the turnbuckles for The fore stay that has to be ACMO, that including the masts on and off. To motivate the Extra cost of  minimum 3000 €, there has to be substantial advantages, not only the measurements. 
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259, Lagos, Portugal


Laurens Vos
 

What is the average lifespan for the ACMO rigging ? Our 54 is from 2008 when we need to think about replacement ? 

Best 
Laurens 


Peter Forbes
 

Carango is a 2006 yacht and we are replacing the standing rigging this Spring 2021.

i hope that helps - we have specifically asked for stainless turnbuckles.

Peter

Peter Forbes
CARANGO Amel 54 #035
La Rochelle
07836 209730

On 12 Apr 2021, at 18:15, Laurens Vos <laurensrineke@...> wrote:

What is the average lifespan for the ACMO rigging ? Our 54 is from 2008 when we need to think about replacement ? 

Best 
Laurens 


 

Amel changed the specs of the Mainmast Lower and Intermediate Shrouds during the production of the 54. The final revision was:
Lower (BAS HAUBANS AR) Changed from 10 to 12mm
Intermediate (INTERS) Changed from 8 to 10mm.
If you order from ACMO, they have this change, but be sure to check and verify.

I hope this helps you.
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:15 PM Laurens Vos <laurensrineke@...> wrote:
What is the average lifespan for the ACMO rigging ? Our 54 is from 2008 when we need to think about replacement ? 

Best 
Laurens 


Bill Kinney
 

Paul,

If both parties are talking 316 stainless steel, and are using the defined international standards for that alloy, there should be NO difference in breaking strength. The tensile strength of the wire is fixed by the alloy composition, and its construction.  It is possible that ACMO uses 316L stainless, that DOES have a lower breaking strength.  316L has lower carbon, which makes welds easier to make corrosion free.  This obviously has little benefit to rigging wire.

As far as corrosion resistance for the ACMO wire, I have to say I have not seen it to be obviously superior.  I have seen several boats with recently installed ACMO rigs, and all were showing significant "rouging" of the wire within a year of installation.  Light, rust colored stains.  Not really of any consequence to the ultimate strength or lifespan of the wire, but not something that I would describe as "superior" to other wire rope suppliers I have seen.  ACMO dismissed the concerns of some of these owners as dirt sticking to grease left over from the manufacturing proccss, but that was clearly NOT the case.  I will emphasize  that there is NOTHING wrong with ACMO rigging, it's just not "clearly superior" to others a priori.

As far as I know, the dimensions of the Super Maramu wires have never changed.  The rig on the 54 HAS gone through a at least on iteration.  I wouldn't count on any rigger to keep up with that.  It's an owner's job.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL, USA


Bill Kinney
 

Laurens,

There is no easy answer to "how long" for rigging.  The problem is that stainless steel can fail in ways that give absolutely no visual warning.  It can look perfect--right up until the rig fails. The idea that a visual inspection can "certify" a rig as good is just a total falsehood.  Certainly there ARE issues a visual inspection can find, but there are many more it can not.

Failures occur with increasing frequency with age, so there is no magic cutoff.  The "generally accepted" practice for rigging used in tropical salt water is a life span of 15 years.  Warmer, saltier, water (like the Gulf of Mexico or the Med) gives a shorter life.  Colder, fresher, water allows a longer lifespan.  Rig tuning, and the amount of sailing and the kind of sailing also factor in, but all in a very unquantifiable way.  We replaced our rig after 14 years, not because there was any indication of failure, but the consequences of failure are just too high.

I would specifically ask for BRONZE turnbuckles.  Chrome plated, if you prefer the shiny look.  They are just as strong as stainless, less susceptible to crevice corrosion, and most importantly, far less likely to "gall" and lock the threads with the stainless studs.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL, USA


 


I said the benefits of ordering from ACMO are:
1.) ACMO is the OEM provider to Amel for rigging and has been for over 40 years.
2.) ACMO is up-to-date with Amel specs. 
3.)ACMO is a designated Preferred Vendor to my Yacht School clients and I believe about 50 of my clients have purchased rigging kits from ACMO. 
4.) Two of the three riggers I will recommend worldwide buy ACMO rigging material.
The most important benefits are 1 & 2 above. ACMO has the exact specifications in terms of size and length that are needed, in most cases, to properly rig an Amel. With many Maramus, Santorins, and some Super Maramus an owner is the 5th owner to own the boat and the 2nd owner to re-rig it. Ensuring accuracy and including needed updates (as in the case of the 54) are important and some 54 owners have discovered that their non-ACMO re-rig wasn't done with the most recent Amel specs. The A-54 rigging updates were made during the production of the 54. I doubt that Amel will make any rigging update after they cease production of a model and as far as I know that has never happened. 

I also previously wrote, "All of the above said, you should buy from the supplier you feel is best for you. It is possible that the company you choose will be as good or better than ACMO."

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 8:51 PM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Laurens,

There is no easy answer to "how long" for rigging.  The problem is that stainless steel can fail in ways that give absolutely no visual warning.  It can look perfect--right up until the rig fails. The idea that a visual inspection can "certify" a rig as good is just a total falsehood.  Certainly there ARE issues a visual inspection can find, but there are many more it can not.

Failures occur with increasing frequency with age, so there is no magic cutoff.  The "generally accepted" practice for rigging used in tropical salt water is a life span of 15 years.  Warmer, saltier, water (like the Gulf of Mexico or the Med) gives a shorter life.  Colder, fresher, water allows a longer lifespan.  Rig tuning, and the amount of sailing and the kind of sailing also factor in, but all in a very unquantifiable way.  We replaced our rig after 14 years, not because there was any indication of failure, but the consequences of failure are just too high.

I would specifically ask for BRONZE turnbuckles.  Chrome plated, if you prefer the shiny look.  They are just as strong as stainless, less susceptible to crevice corrosion, and most importantly, far less likely to "gall" and lock the threads with the stainless studs.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL, USA