Topics

Amel is going lithium

Scott SV Tengah
 

Hanspeter,

Things must be lost in translation for both of us.

My mind was blown when learning about lithium and after a year aboard with it, I can attest that many of the advantages are real. I'll complete that writeup soon and hopefully it will answer all your questions. My system isn't perfect and I'm hoping some of the shortcomings can be solved by the group's collective brainpower.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Porter McRoberts
 

We run in series as it’s a bit far from the mppt 90v to the mppt 


Porter

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:53 AM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter,

You've astutely pointed out one of the major advantages of Lifepo4. 

Charging your lead (?) batteries between 80-100% maximizes their longevity but results in them having trouble accepting even mid-day full current from your panels. With lifepo4, it can accept full current until high 90s state of charge. 

As a corollary, we have 220v chargers that total 200amps. The batteries accept the full current up until 95-98% and that's why our genset runtime is so short. Add in the charging efficiency with only 3% lost through heat vs. 20%+ on lead and it makes a huge difference on both genset usage and solar charging efficiency. 

PS - are you running the 3 panels serial or parallel? If you aren't sure, you can check the voltages on the numerical data. 





--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Stephen Davis
 

Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane. 

image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
image3.jpeg


On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17


On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Stephen Davis
 

Sorry....Wrong recipient!

On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Davis via Groups.Io <flyboyscd@...> wrote:

Very cool...Hope I’m able to still do that when I’m 82. This is my cool ne airplane. 

image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg
image3.jpeg


On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:11 AM, Paul Brown <feeder.brown@...> wrote:

Hey Scott, thank you and I was figuring a 5000w inverter upgrade (Maybe a 7500w when available)to run all from 24v when possible, I too have a Bauer junior. I guess then genset is still a great reliable generation item and needed for those jobs, but’s it is great to live off batteries most of the time and look forward to the day when it’s easy.

Nice sharing with you and thanks for the advice 

Regards Paul Fortuna II A55#17


On 6 Aug 2019, at 8:36 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

At the risk of costing you some money on upgrades, I will say that being able to run all the 220v appliances without the genset is one of the biggest advantages of having lithium. Especially the washing machine as it takes such a long time and has such variable draw but a low average draw, so you're unnecessarily adding runtime to the genset unless you batch it with a lot of other uses.

We have the Victron Quattro 24v/5000va/120amp. At 5000watts, more or less, the only 220v appliance that won't run is the Bauer Junior II scuba compressor. And that's only due to the startup current required. I can probably start the scuba compressor with the genset and continue with the inverter. With your mostly Mastervolt setup, I'd suggest sticking to Mastervolt so the batteries can talk to the inverter. But I'm sure Mastervolt has a similar product.

The danger of having that much inverter capacity is that people sometimes think it's really like being at home. The admiral has been known to run the electric boiler, induction stovetop and microwave at the same time on battery/inverter. With respect to the batteries, it's only around half the recommended continuous draw, but it still makes me cringe!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Porter McRoberts
 

Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!

Appreciated 

Porter A54-152

Excuse the errors.  
Sent from my IPhone 

On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Scott;

 

Very impressive numbers. I am familiar the Lithium battery technology and all the benefits you mention, since we have been using it in giant scale radio control airplane models (Up to 60% scale) for years.

 

The one major issue with lithium that has prevented us from making the change to Lithium on Kokomo, has been safety. There have been many cases of these batteries burning down models as well as houses, when the fire happened to occur in the house.

 

In most cases the issue has been misuse or equipment failure, that has led to overcharge/discharge but some that seem to have been without any external input and not during usage  As far as I have observed, , once the fire starts, it cannot be extinguished with standard firefighting equipment. It basically seems to need to burn itself out.

 

Do you know which lithium technology Mastervolt uses? (Lithium Polymer, ION, LIFE, or ?) Did you ever happen to address the safety and evaluate the hazards with this technology? What was your conclusion and how do you view the hazards associated with these batteries?

 

I would also be interested in seeing a picture of your solar setup, if you have one. Thanks for posting all the useful information and data.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:25 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!

 

Appreciated 

 

Porter A54-152

Excuse the errors.  

Sent from my IPhone 


On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Mohammad,

Both Victron, which I have and Mastervolt use lifepo4 chemistry, a much safer (but less energy dense) technology than the lithium ion that is more common. I don't know much about RC planes, but I assume for weight, they'd go with the lithium ion, which is far more prone to catching fire and when they do have thermal runaway, burn much hotter and are likely to ignite adjacent cells.

I'll write about my thoughts on safety in a later post. I'm sure you know about the relative safety of lifepo4, but here's a FAA fire hazard analysis done on the various battery types as they are often used in real airplanes. I read this last year before I was contemplating adding lithium to my boat.

Lifepo4 is shown to be safer than the other lithium chemistries. 

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

While safer, it's not without risk. Then again, neither is lead acid as I personally know the owner of an Amel who experienced an unexplained lead acid battery bank explosion. Luckily no one was sleeping on the passage berth at the time.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mohammad Shirloo
 

Thanks Scott;

 

We do use LIPO, LI-ION and LiFEpo4 in our hobby and am familiar with the safety vs. energy storage, weight, # of cycles differences. I agree that that LiFepo4 would be the safest choice out of the group and most likely provide the highest number of cycles. It is probably the heaviest of the group, which would not be an issue on a displacement cruising yacht.

 

I look forward to your findings and opinion. We just replaced our AGM batteries last year and will most likely try to go Lithium for our next bank switch over which hopefully will not be for another 3 years plus. I would assume that would be plenty of time for the industry to work out any bugs in the system and technology, as applies to cruising yachts.

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott SV Tengah via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 1:59 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Mohammad,

Both Victron, which I have and Mastervolt use lifepo4 chemistry, a much safer (but less energy dense) technology than the lithium ion that is more common. I don't know much about RC planes, but I assume for weight, they'd go with the lithium ion, which is far more prone to catching fire and when they do have thermal runaway, burn much hotter and are likely to ignite adjacent cells.

I'll write about my thoughts on safety in a later post. I'm sure you know about the relative safety of lifepo4, but here's a FAA fire hazard analysis done on the various battery types as they are often used in real airplanes. I read this last year before I was contemplating adding lithium to my boat.

Lifepo4 is shown to be safer than the other lithium chemistries. 

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

While safer, it's not without risk. Then again, neither is lead acid as I personally know the owner of an Amel who experienced an unexplained lead acid battery bank explosion. Luckily no one was sleeping on the passage berth at the time.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Scott,
I am full of admiration for your bold step into Lithium. I was tempted two and a bit years ago when I bought Amelia but I decided I wanted to go with Firefly AGM carbon foam but then I simply could not get them fast enough for my cruising itinerary so I went Lifeline AGM and 530w solar as well as  two Rutland 1200 wind generators. 
I am happy with my set up but you have taken that next step...well done.
I am curious, the one thing that I can not get without generator or main engine is HOT WATER....
Do you use the inverter to power the immersion hot water??? Does that add up with your general battery management regime?
I really get the washing machine and general day to day stuff and an  amazed you can run one aircon unit and still not be running the generator for long.
Nick
Amelia (AML 54-019)
Preveza, Greece


On 7 Aug 2019, at 10:05, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi Scott;

 

Very impressive numbers. I am familiar the Lithium battery technology and all the benefits you mention, since we have been using it in giant scale radio control airplane models (Up to 60% scale) for years.

 

The one major issue with lithium that has prevented us from making the change to Lithium on Kokomo, has been safety. There have been many cases of these batteries burning down models as well as houses, when the fire happened to occur in the house.

 

In most cases the issue has been misuse or equipment failure, that has led to overcharge/discharge but some that seem to have been without any external input and not during usage  As far as I have observed, , once the fire starts, it cannot be extinguished with standard firefighting equipment. It basically seems to need to burn itself out.

 

Do you know which lithium technology Mastervolt uses? (Lithium Polymer, ION, LIFE, or ?) Did you ever happen to address the safety and evaluate the hazards with this technology? What was your conclusion and how do you view the hazards associated with these batteries?

 

I would also be interested in seeing a picture of your solar setup, if you have one. Thanks for posting all the useful information and data.

 

 

 

Respectfully;

 

 

Mohammad and Aty

B&B Kokomo

Amel 54 #099

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Porter McRoberts via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:25 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Very interesting re serial vs parallel. I do find a big drop in production with shading, much better days if the wind keeps the solar pointed towards the sun. I’ll have to run a bit more wire to the mppt. I’ll try that in NZ and see what we get. Thanks for the suggestion!!

 

Appreciated 

 

Porter A54-152

Excuse the errors.  

Sent from my IPhone 


On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Porter, 

I guess you mean far from the panels to the mppt? 

Maybe you can experiment with parallel to see if you get higher output. I believe parallel is better than serial when you have shading on some panels and not others. 

I have the 3 pairs of wires from the panels to a switch in the aft lazarette.  Then one pair from the lazarette to the mppt which is behind the main switches in the passage berth. Of course the batteries are near there. 

Seems to be no problem with the distance as I'm getting up to 6500wh per day as you can see on the data I posted earlier. 
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 
Edited

Nick,

I can and have run the hot water heater on battery. It's only 700w so similar to the water maker, but of course 220v so inverter inefficiencies come into play.

To clarify, I can do all of those things I mentioned earlier. I can run the water maker on battery alone, I can run AC all night on battery, I can heat water. That is a testament to lithium's ability to handle high current loads with no issue. But those are extraordinary uses - my 960w solar array cannot output enough power if I engage in those high current loads every day. That said, the charging efficiency and current "intake" capacity of lithium makes the panels far more efficient than they would be with lead/agm/gel.

I do cook with induction, dishwasher, microwave daily on battery, though.

Hope this helps.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Mark & Debbie Mueller
 

In the information you provided on August 6 you mentioned that your water maker outputs approximately 80 LPH consuming 600 W.  We have the Dessalator 160 which is 220 V only.  When operating it is speced at 16 A or 3520 W.  Dividing in half to correct down to 80 LPH assuming a straight line function we would use 1760 W or approximately 3 times the power consumption for the same output as your Dessalator. 

 

Could you please verify your power consumption and water output?  I would like to try to determine if I have something wrong with my Dessalator or the Duo operates extremely efficiently on 24 V.  Thanks.
--
Mark Mueller
Brass Ring  A54

Scott SV Tengah
 

Mark,

If you look at Dessalator specs you'll see that it does operate much more efficiently at 24v vs 220v.

https://www.dessalator.fr/en/products/price-list/

For my Duo100, operating at 220v uses nearly 60% more wattage than operating at 24v. Moreover, inverters aren't 100% efficient so I try to go 24v whenever possible.

BTW does your 160l/h actually produce 160l/h? The gauge on mine will show 100+ but measuring via the floating dipstick shows the tank is only getting 80l
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Scott,

My Desalateur produces 160l per hour easily. Actually one should adjust the pressure to that effect as the water temperature and salinity effect output. So in the West Indies and Greece in summer     I have to keep the pressure just kissing green on the HP, if I set it at midway on the gauge it produces 180 litres. I think in colder water more pressure is required and in less saline water less pressure.

Coming back to Lithium. So what is your routine for charging the batteries? Assume bright sunshine.
Let’s assume:
You want hot water every day
You need to make 100 litres of water per day
You cook etc and run all fridges 
And do all the phone charging and laptop charging maybe watch TV for an hour etc etc....
Maybe do a load of laundry.
Just living at anchor

Nick
Amelia (54-019)
Preveza Greece





On 7 Aug 2019, at 23:09, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Mark,

If you look at Dessalator specs you'll see that it does operate much more efficiently at 24v vs 220v.

https://www.dessalator.fr/en/products/price-list/

For my Duo100, operating at 220v uses nearly 60% more wattage than operating at 24v. Moreover, inverters aren't 100% efficient so I try to go 24v whenever possible.

BTW does your 160l/h actually produce 160l/h? The gauge on mine will show 100+ but measuring via the floating dipstick shows the tank is only getting 80l
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Nick,

When I run the WM, the Dessalator gauge reads well over 100 liters per hour but it appears a bit optimistic. I assume you're checking the dipstick prior to running it for one hour and then checking again after 1 hour of runtime? I am aware of the effect of salinity and temperature but I'm loathe to try to put it higher into the red in order to try to squeeze out some more output. I'd rather just keep it in the recommended green and run it a bit longer.

In any event, with respect to the battery charging routine, it's really just a math problem. I average a bit over 200 AH a day from my solar panels. I run two fridges and a freezer. I cook with induction. I use the electric kettle to make coffee. I use my laptop. Those uses are more or less fixed. With that usage and decent sun, the battery bank doesn't drop below 35% for days. The recommended/acceptable practice is to run it down to 20% SOC, but I get nervous at 30%. So I have 450*.7 = 315AH of usable capacity. Add in 200AH of solar output and I have 515AH per day to work with. We don't use that much per day so it lasts a few days.

Lately I've been trying to keep between 40-80% state of charge, if possible. That's the least stressful for the batteries and extends their life. I won't run the genset early in the day if I think solar will push the bank above 80% that day and I don't run high draw appliances if I'm near 40% without running the genset. I'll charge to 100% if I know it won't be staying there long - eg I may run the genset to charge to 100% before a full night of air conditioning on battery. Keeping a lithium bank at 100%, especially in high ambient temps, is not good for them.

I treat my batteries very well due to the initial cost. Most would simply take it to 20% and fire up the genset to take it to 100% without any other adjustments.  Even with that "abuse", they'll get 2000 cycles out of them. It's certainly simpler and I may be overthinking it, but I don't mind a bit of extra thinking to make them last a few thousand extra cycles.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Paul Brown
 

Hi Scott 

I do like your thinking and see you have muchbmore understanding than I.

I generally run my 720ah lithium MV down to around 30% before I top them up with the generator and usually only to about 50 or 60 %, maybe every 2 weeks I will charge to 100% when I’m making water or washing machine or aircon or all, otherwise I’m relaxed at anchor and keep them around 50%, the 550w 24v solar contributes to 75% of my general 24v/220 inverter power consumption 

How many cycles do you think I’ll get and how many years of life seeing the boat is wintered 6 months a year?

The MV technician said he would think 15 to 20 years total life, as they are relatively new technology they don’t really have those statistics but at a guess.

Regards Paul-Fortuna II 55#17


On 8 Aug 2019, at 2:31 pm, Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Nick,

When I run the WM, the Dessalator gauge reads well over 100 liters per hour but it appears a bit optimistic. I assume you're checking the dipstick prior to running it for one hour and then checking again after 1 hour of runtime? I am aware of the effect of salinity and temperature but I'm loathe to try to put it higher into the red in order to try to squeeze out some more output. I'd rather just keep it in the recommended green and run it a bit longer.

In any event, with respect to the battery charging routine, it's really just a math problem. I average a bit over 200 AH a day from my solar panels. I run two fridges and a freezer. I cook with induction. I use the electric kettle to make coffee. I use my laptop. Those uses are more or less fixed. With that usage and decent sun, the battery bank doesn't drop below 35% for days. The recommended/acceptable practice is to run it down to 20% SOC, but I get nervous at 30%. So I have 450*.7 = 315AH of usable capacity. Add in 200AH of solar output and I have 515AH per day to work with. We don't use that much per day so it lasts a few days.

Lately I've been trying to keep between 40-80% state of charge, if possible. That's the least stressful for the batteries and extends their life. I won't run the genset early in the day if I think solar will push the bank above 80% that day and I don't run high draw appliances if I'm near 40% without running the genset. I'll charge to 100% if I know it won't be staying there long - eg I may run the genset to charge to 100% before a full night of air conditioning on battery. Keeping a lithium bank at 100%, especially in high ambient temps, is not good for them.

I treat my batteries very well due to the initial cost. Most would simply take it to 20% and fire up the genset to take it to 100% without any other adjustments.  Even with that "abuse", they'll get 2000 cycles out of them. It's certainly simpler and I may be overthinking it, but I don't mind a bit of extra thinking to make them last a few thousand extra cycles.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Scott SV Tengah
 

Paul,

I can't really predict for you, but I would guess as long as you spend most of your time around 50% and don't let it drop below 30% very often, the 15-20 year lifetime sounds very realistic.

Keep in mind that ONE over voltage or ONE under voltage condition can irreversibly damage the cell and likely the battery. That's why the BMS is there but all the charging sources need to be able to cut off charging once the BMS tells them to do so. And if any of the cell voltages drop below the safe level per the BMS, there should be an automatic disconnect of all the loads. Given the way Amels are wired, this last part has been a struggle for me.

You ideally should keep it at 40-50% while its wintered. Whatever you do, don't keep it at 100%. The Victron chargers don't have a direct way to specify target SOC, so I had to find a workaround.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

islandpearl2_sm2k332
 

Hi Scott

Really interesting thread, thank you. We are following with interest.

After we met you at the Caribbean Amel Rally 2019 we took a late decision to do the Pacific this year, and end our circumnavigation in Nov 2019 instead of 2010. After this, we will probably sell Island Pearl II, but if we do not sell and decide to go around again instead, then adding Lithium batteries will certainly be the last of many upgrade steps to Island Pearl II. Based on this I would also be most interested in getting a copy of your upcoming Lithium report.

On Island Pearl II we have 1040w of solar, run through three separate solar controllers, plus two Rutland 1200 wind gens, and we now seldom use the genset. We have the same 100 Duo watermaker as you, plus do all cooking on our induction stove which is so much nicer than gas cooking. Gas is only for oven baking which we seldom do. To improve washing efficiency we recently upgraded the Amel supplied "Thompson" washing machine to a new "Bosch" as that comes with better cleaning and efficiency, and particularly has a dedicated special "cold water" washing cycle for doing our washing from batteries only.

As we near the end of our circumnavigation, we are now pretty close to running the boat "off the grid", but I have always thought that the final piece to the puzzle would be Lithium batteries, so look forward to reading your article and learning from your experiences.

By the way, in addition, I remain a total convert to the need for at least two good wind generators on any boat in order to reach a total off the grid experience. Litium could become the trup card that proves me wrong on this but I doubt it. These units are so now so quiet, that (other than visually) they go almost unnoticed. When one considers 50% of time is in darkness, and at least another 5% each per early morning and late afternoon low sun angle, leaves only 40% max (and that is on a sunny day!) with good solar production. Yes solar output completely outstrips that of wind power ten times over, but we would never again be without at least two latest models, high-efficiency good quality wind gen units aswell, which, for example, on night crossings on a beam reach, I often watch putting out 6amp each constantly, and then at anchor on cloudy/windy days (27 - 33kts) push out over 10amps each (x24v of course).

Watching with interest

Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II, sm #332
Niue, Pacific




On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:34 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
Paul,

I can't really predict for you, but I would guess as long as you spend most of your time around 50% and don't let it drop below 30% very often, the 15-20 year lifetime sounds very realistic.

Keep in mind that ONE over voltage or ONE under voltage condition can irreversibly damage the cell and likely the battery. That's why the BMS is there but all the charging sources need to be able to cut off charging once the BMS tells them to do so. And if any of the cell voltages drop below the safe level per the BMS, there should be an automatic disconnect of all the loads. Given the way Amels are wired, this last part has been a struggle for me.

You ideally should keep it at 40-50% while its wintered. Whatever you do, don't keep it at 100%. The Victron chargers don't have a direct way to specify target SOC, so I had to find a workaround.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445

Scott SV Tengah
 

Colin,

Good to hear from you! It's amazing we're now so far apart given we were nearly next to each other just a few months ago.

That's great that you have so much generation capacity. So you can run the water maker (25amps) and induction (80+ amps) from your non-lithium batteries? I never tried that on my previous gel batteries because of lack of a capable inverter, but I didn't think it would have worked. One "weakness" of my current system is that I can't replenish, via renewable sources, all the power we use. With our current usage level, it doesn't make sense to have more than 450AH capacity because we don't generate enough renewable power daily so it's a question of how often we have to run the genset. Where do you have all that solar? Just on the arch or elsewhere too?

Do you have longer term data on the output of the Rutlands? I have heard so many conflicting stories on what people "think" their wind generators output on a daily basis. It would be interesting to see what they produce on average, over the course of months, in the normal trade wind circumnavigation route. Also, what about noise/hum/resonance?

Also where do you have them mounted? If I were to add them, I would put one on the mizzen mast and that's it. I have tested minor shading on the panels and even with my parallel wired 3 panel setup, solar output drops considerably with shading. I'm concerned that the solar reduction attributed to shading via a setup like Delos with the windgens located nearly directly above the panels would cancel out any output from the windgen. Lithium will not make windgens, if they produce considerable power, unnecessary. I would love to have more renewable generation capacity.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

islandpearl2_sm2k332
 

Hi Scott

In answer to your questions, here is a pic of the boat from the drone we took recently in Marquesas showing you where the solar and wind gens are located. (We have 540W on the davits plus 500w above the cockpit. Unlike Delos who placed the wind gens at the rear, we placed another small handy arch in front of the Emerek arch to brace it even further for a much heavier dinghy (if ever required), and this is also where I now also have handy space for anything I wish to mount in the future such as security cameras, lights, the IridiumGo Cruiser package dome aerial etc..etc. By locating the wind gens here, I feel it is more away from shading the panels,(but no doubt does shade bits of them at times?). Although we have Victron equipment (eg Victron 3000w inverter / 70amp 24v charger) and remote controls, I did not bother to add the fancy Victron monitoring tools, but have not really noticed any reduction in solar output since adding the 2nd arch and 2 x wind gens. 

We have covered a lot of distance in the past two years so I find we are often full of power, and simply dumping excess solar/wind power generated. For that reason, and without having Lithium (where due to lower weight and space requirements, I would be very tempted to add much more battery storage capacity to capture that all excess power for rainy weeks)  I am far less interested in the cumulative solar or wind power generated than I am in when it is generated eg at night or on cloudy/rainy days.

In terms of the Duo 100 watermaker, we have at times run it in good sunny periods just on the batteries, but that has only been for incremental water after poor planning on our part. After cruising the boat permanently for just over two years, we have become far smarter at forward planning our water and energy requirements, and picking the best times to run the watermaker. Possibly this has been easier for us than for most as we have done over 30,000 nm in this time, (see our live tracker page link here:  https://forecast.predictwind.com/tra.../display/IslandPearl2 )  so have sailed and motor sailed a lot, and thus had far more opportunity than most to not run the genset. Also, these days it is just Lauren and me on the boat, and with a 1000L water tank, it is has been very rare indeed that we have ever put the genset on to make water, in fact, I cannot even remember a recent time we had to do this. Previously when we had 3 crew on board, with everyone using the showers, electric kettle, etc in a much less coordinated way, we simply could not plan our energy usage to the same level, and the genset was on daily.

On passages there are very often times when you will need to motor sail, (for example last week on the 1200nm passage from Bora Bora to Niue we had just 4kts - 9kts of wind for 4 long days! ouch!) and that's a prime example of when we like to make most our water, as I am then looking for ways to dump all that excess power, especially when the sun is also shining and when the batteries are already 100%. What I prefer to do on these occasions is to use the inverter and then run the Duo on 230v ac (rather than on 24v dc), as I find it slightly faster than on DC.

Regarding the Induction Stove, we purchased a "home-style" above kitchen benchtop "Phillips brand" plugin induction stove. These are pretty inexpensive nowadays and are awesome little units if you get a good quality brand name.  Our one has power options of 1800w, 1200w, 800w, 400w and is amazingly fast! So, for example, knowing we have a 3000w inverter, and we tend not to load it more than 2500w at any one time (eg computer, 1200w stove fast boiling, 750w microwave & plenty reserve) if possible, and so we have learned to adjust both the microwave power watts, and the stovetop watts as needed, for example, the rice pot on the induction comes onto the boil,(then down to 400w) and the veggies in the microwave need 900w instead of 750w to cook faster.  

The Phillips induction stove is one hotplate only glass top unit, and it fits perfectly on top of the standard Amel gas stove, and clips in under the existing pot holder steel rails. The great thing about this is it is perfectly gimballed and we have often had, for example, a huge pot of curry cooking there in 3m+ waves and it stays perfectly on the stovetop, but we still need to think about designing a decent stainless set of pot clamps for the little induction unit, just in case! Of course, being a benchtop model, we then also have the option of moving it onto the side benchtop too, and then using both gas cookers and induction, but this has never yet been necessary for us. Our gas usage is so seldom that we last filled our propane gas up in Mauritius 1 year ago and it is still full!

The last point I should mention is your hot water system (as this is normally the only time when we sometimes need to run the genset now, unplanned .for 15 - 20mins at night. (for the Admiral's shower). We decided to replace our hot water boiler with a new 1200w model (previously 600 or 700w?) unit in 2017 just before cruising. This is amazingly fast and cuts down the heating time (and hence ad hoc unplanned genset use time too!) from 50mins to less than 20mins approx for 40L. We can, and sometimes do, simply heat it via the inverter from the batteries if the wind is blowing hard at night etc.., but when I sell the boat later this year, I would probably advise the new owner to think carefully about this in term of his/her needs and crew plans, and potentially remove this option (ie. to run it off batteries) as one could easily have a new crew member turn it on and forget, and then run down the house batteries far faster than one might like!

Best regards
Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II , SM #332. (for sale in November in Australia when we complete our circumnavigation - contact me or the broker)
Niue (& Tonga next week)




On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 4:43 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
Colin,

Good to hear from you! It's amazing we're now so far apart given we were nearly next to each other just a few months ago.

That's great that you have so much generation capacity. So you can run the water maker (25amps) and induction (80+ amps) from your non-lithium batteries? I never tried that on my previous gel batteries because of lack of a capable inverter, but I didn't think it would have worked. One "weakness" of my current system is that I can't replenish, via renewable sources, all the power we use. With our current usage level, it doesn't make sense to have more than 450AH capacity because we don't generate enough renewable power daily so it's a question of how often we have to run the genset. Where do you have all that solar? Just on the arch or elsewhere too?

Do you have longer term data on the output of the Rutlands? I have heard so many conflicting stories on what people "think" their wind generators output on a daily basis. It would be interesting to see what they produce on average, over the course of months, in the normal trade wind circumnavigation route. Also, what about noise/hum/resonance?

Also where do you have them mounted? If I were to add them, I would put one on the mizzen mast and that's it. I have tested minor shading on the panels and even with my parallel wired 3 panel setup, solar output drops considerably with shading. I'm concerned that the solar reduction attributed to shading via a setup like Delos with the windgens located nearly directly above the panels would cancel out any output from the windgen. Lithium will not make windgens, if they produce considerable power, unnecessary. I would love to have more renewable generation capacity.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445