Topics

Amel is going lithium

 

Colin, 

Very understandable with lots of actual and current information. Thanks for that.

There are many ways to cruise and many more methods to power your requirements aboard an Amel. When we account for personal needs and wishes, it is easy for anyone to clearly see that no one solution will fit everyone. In fact, it is likely that no single solution fits anyone else's.

When you turnover your Amel to new owners, be sure that what you've added and modified is completely documented and understood.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970


On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 6:22 AM islandpearl2_sm2k332 <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote:
Hi Scott

In answer to your questions, here is a pic of the boat from the drone we took recently in Marquesas showing you where the solar and wind gens are located. (We have 540W on the davits plus 500w above the cockpit. Unlike Delos who placed the wind gens at the rear, we placed another small handy arch in front of the Emerek arch to brace it even further for a much heavier dinghy (if ever required), and this is also where I now also have handy space for anything I wish to mount in the future such as security cameras, lights, the IridiumGo Cruiser package dome aerial etc..etc. By locating the wind gens here, I feel it is more away from shading the panels,(but no doubt does shade bits of them at times?). Although we have Victron equipment (eg Victron 3000w inverter / 70amp 24v charger) and remote controls, I did not bother to add the fancy Victron monitoring tools, but have not really noticed any reduction in solar output since adding the 2nd arch and 2 x wind gens. 

We have covered a lot of distance in the past two years so I find we are often full of power, and simply dumping excess solar/wind power generated. For that reason, and without having Lithium (where due to lower weight and space requirements, I would be very tempted to add much more battery storage capacity to capture that all excess power for rainy weeks)  I am far less interested in the cumulative solar or wind power generated than I am in when it is generated eg at night or on cloudy/rainy days.

In terms of the Duo 100 watermaker, we have at times run it in good sunny periods just on the batteries, but that has only been for incremental water after poor planning on our part. After cruising the boat permanently for just over two years, we have become far smarter at forward planning our water and energy requirements, and picking the best times to run the watermaker. Possibly this has been easier for us than for most as we have done over 30,000 nm in this time, (see our live tracker page link here:  https://forecast.predictwind.com/tra.../display/IslandPearl2 )  so have sailed and motor sailed a lot, and thus had far more opportunity than most to not run the genset. Also, these days it is just Lauren and me on the boat, and with a 1000L water tank, it is has been very rare indeed that we have ever put the genset on to make water, in fact, I cannot even remember a recent time we had to do this. Previously when we had 3 crew on board, with everyone using the showers, electric kettle, etc in a much less coordinated way, we simply could not plan our energy usage to the same level, and the genset was on daily.

On passages there are very often times when you will need to motor sail, (for example last week on the 1200nm passage from Bora Bora to Niue we had just 4kts - 9kts of wind for 4 long days! ouch!) and that's a prime example of when we like to make most our water, as I am then looking for ways to dump all that excess power, especially when the sun is also shining and when the batteries are already 100%. What I prefer to do on these occasions is to use the inverter and then run the Duo on 230v ac (rather than on 24v dc), as I find it slightly faster than on DC.

Regarding the Induction Stove, we purchased a "home-style" above kitchen benchtop "Phillips brand" plugin induction stove. These are pretty inexpensive nowadays and are awesome little units if you get a good quality brand name.  Our one has power options of 1800w, 1200w, 800w, 400w and is amazingly fast! So, for example, knowing we have a 3000w inverter, and we tend not to load it more than 2500w at any one time (eg computer, 1200w stove fast boiling, 750w microwave & plenty reserve) if possible, and so we have learned to adjust both the microwave power watts, and the stovetop watts as needed, for example, the rice pot on the induction comes onto the boil,(then down to 400w) and the veggies in the microwave need 900w instead of 750w to cook faster.  

The Phillips induction stove is one hotplate only glass top unit, and it fits perfectly on top of the standard Amel gas stove, and clips in under the existing pot holder steel rails. The great thing about this is it is perfectly gimballed and we have often had, for example, a huge pot of curry cooking there in 3m+ waves and it stays perfectly on the stovetop, but we still need to think about designing a decent stainless set of pot clamps for the little induction unit, just in case! Of course, being a benchtop model, we then also have the option of moving it onto the side benchtop too, and then using both gas cookers and induction, but this has never yet been necessary for us. Our gas usage is so seldom that we last filled our propane gas up in Mauritius 1 year ago and it is still full!

The last point I should mention is your hot water system (as this is normally the only time when we sometimes need to run the genset now, unplanned .for 15 - 20mins at night. (for the Admiral's shower). We decided to replace our hot water boiler with a new 1200w model (previously 600 or 700w?) unit in 2017 just before cruising. This is amazingly fast and cuts down the heating time (and hence ad hoc unplanned genset use time too!) from 50mins to less than 20mins approx for 40L. We can, and sometimes do, simply heat it via the inverter from the batteries if the wind is blowing hard at night etc.., but when I sell the boat later this year, I would probably advise the new owner to think carefully about this in term of his/her needs and crew plans, and potentially remove this option (ie. to run it off batteries) as one could easily have a new crew member turn it on and forget, and then run down the house batteries far faster than one might like!

Best regards
Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II , SM #332. (for sale in November in Australia when we complete our circumnavigation - contact me or the broker)
Niue (& Tonga next week)




On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 4:43 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
Colin,

Good to hear from you! It's amazing we're now so far apart given we were nearly next to each other just a few months ago.

That's great that you have so much generation capacity. So you can run the water maker (25amps) and induction (80+ amps) from your non-lithium batteries? I never tried that on my previous gel batteries because of lack of a capable inverter, but I didn't think it would have worked. One "weakness" of my current system is that I can't replenish, via renewable sources, all the power we use. With our current usage level, it doesn't make sense to have more than 450AH capacity because we don't generate enough renewable power daily so it's a question of how often we have to run the genset. Where do you have all that solar? Just on the arch or elsewhere too?

Do you have longer term data on the output of the Rutlands? I have heard so many conflicting stories on what people "think" their wind generators output on a daily basis. It would be interesting to see what they produce on average, over the course of months, in the normal trade wind circumnavigation route. Also, what about noise/hum/resonance?

Also where do you have them mounted? If I were to add them, I would put one on the mizzen mast and that's it. I have tested minor shading on the panels and even with my parallel wired 3 panel setup, solar output drops considerably with shading. I'm concerned that the solar reduction attributed to shading via a setup like Delos with the windgens located nearly directly above the panels would cancel out any output from the windgen. Lithium will not make windgens, if they produce considerable power, unnecessary. I would love to have more renewable generation capacity.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445

islandpearl2_sm2k332
 

Hi Bill

You are spot-on as usual. Especially when it comes to power consumption, we all use these boat very differently, and hence my rather practical detailed examples to illustrate this down to cooking preferences. Even on our boat, the different patterns of usage and issues are totally different between a husband and wife situation now, and for the one year when I had crew join me.

Yes, the lucky new owner of this boat is going to get a huge amount of detailed information about precisely every change we made. Also, since we are only the 2nd owners, and the first owner had Amel deliver the new boat to him, and then fell ill and never used it, but employed an Amel technician to care for it for 10 years, I am the only person who has ever changed anything at all, so it will all be there.

By the way, thank you for your kind assistance with the total set of new sails we ordered. These are almost ready for delivery to us now, and waiting for when we arrive in Fiji.

Best regards
Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II, 2001 SM #332
Niue, Pacific
Where is Island Pearl now, and where has she been? ... click here... https://forecast.predictwind.com/tra.../display/IslandPearl2






On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:54 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Colin, 

Very understandable with lots of actual and current information. Thanks for that.

There are many ways to cruise and many more methods to power your requirements aboard an Amel. When we account for personal needs and wishes, it is easy for anyone to clearly see that no one solution will fit everyone. In fact, it is likely that no single solution fits anyone else's.

When you turnover your Amel to new owners, be sure that what you've added and modified is completely documented and understood.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Yacht School - Supporting Amel Owners
www.YachtSchool.us
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 6:22 AM islandpearl2_sm2k332 <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote:
Hi Scott

In answer to your questions, here is a pic of the boat from the drone we took recently in Marquesas showing you where the solar and wind gens are located. (We have 540W on the davits plus 500w above the cockpit. Unlike Delos who placed the wind gens at the rear, we placed another small handy arch in front of the Emerek arch to brace it even further for a much heavier dinghy (if ever required), and this is also where I now also have handy space for anything I wish to mount in the future such as security cameras, lights, the IridiumGo Cruiser package dome aerial etc..etc. By locating the wind gens here, I feel it is more away from shading the panels,(but no doubt does shade bits of them at times?). Although we have Victron equipment (eg Victron 3000w inverter / 70amp 24v charger) and remote controls, I did not bother to add the fancy Victron monitoring tools, but have not really noticed any reduction in solar output since adding the 2nd arch and 2 x wind gens. 

We have covered a lot of distance in the past two years so I find we are often full of power, and simply dumping excess solar/wind power generated. For that reason, and without having Lithium (where due to lower weight and space requirements, I would be very tempted to add much more battery storage capacity to capture that all excess power for rainy weeks)  I am far less interested in the cumulative solar or wind power generated than I am in when it is generated eg at night or on cloudy/rainy days.

In terms of the Duo 100 watermaker, we have at times run it in good sunny periods just on the batteries, but that has only been for incremental water after poor planning on our part. After cruising the boat permanently for just over two years, we have become far smarter at forward planning our water and energy requirements, and picking the best times to run the watermaker. Possibly this has been easier for us than for most as we have done over 30,000 nm in this time, (see our live tracker page link here:  https://forecast.predictwind.com/tra.../display/IslandPearl2 )  so have sailed and motor sailed a lot, and thus had far more opportunity than most to not run the genset. Also, these days it is just Lauren and me on the boat, and with a 1000L water tank, it is has been very rare indeed that we have ever put the genset on to make water, in fact, I cannot even remember a recent time we had to do this. Previously when we had 3 crew on board, with everyone using the showers, electric kettle, etc in a much less coordinated way, we simply could not plan our energy usage to the same level, and the genset was on daily.

On passages there are very often times when you will need to motor sail, (for example last week on the 1200nm passage from Bora Bora to Niue we had just 4kts - 9kts of wind for 4 long days! ouch!) and that's a prime example of when we like to make most our water, as I am then looking for ways to dump all that excess power, especially when the sun is also shining and when the batteries are already 100%. What I prefer to do on these occasions is to use the inverter and then run the Duo on 230v ac (rather than on 24v dc), as I find it slightly faster than on DC.

Regarding the Induction Stove, we purchased a "home-style" above kitchen benchtop "Phillips brand" plugin induction stove. These are pretty inexpensive nowadays and are awesome little units if you get a good quality brand name.  Our one has power options of 1800w, 1200w, 800w, 400w and is amazingly fast! So, for example, knowing we have a 3000w inverter, and we tend not to load it more than 2500w at any one time (eg computer, 1200w stove fast boiling, 750w microwave & plenty reserve) if possible, and so we have learned to adjust both the microwave power watts, and the stovetop watts as needed, for example, the rice pot on the induction comes onto the boil,(then down to 400w) and the veggies in the microwave need 900w instead of 750w to cook faster.  

The Phillips induction stove is one hotplate only glass top unit, and it fits perfectly on top of the standard Amel gas stove, and clips in under the existing pot holder steel rails. The great thing about this is it is perfectly gimballed and we have often had, for example, a huge pot of curry cooking there in 3m+ waves and it stays perfectly on the stovetop, but we still need to think about designing a decent stainless set of pot clamps for the little induction unit, just in case! Of course, being a benchtop model, we then also have the option of moving it onto the side benchtop too, and then using both gas cookers and induction, but this has never yet been necessary for us. Our gas usage is so seldom that we last filled our propane gas up in Mauritius 1 year ago and it is still full!

The last point I should mention is your hot water system (as this is normally the only time when we sometimes need to run the genset now, unplanned .for 15 - 20mins at night. (for the Admiral's shower). We decided to replace our hot water boiler with a new 1200w model (previously 600 or 700w?) unit in 2017 just before cruising. This is amazingly fast and cuts down the heating time (and hence ad hoc unplanned genset use time too!) from 50mins to less than 20mins approx for 40L. We can, and sometimes do, simply heat it via the inverter from the batteries if the wind is blowing hard at night etc.., but when I sell the boat later this year, I would probably advise the new owner to think carefully about this in term of his/her needs and crew plans, and potentially remove this option (ie. to run it off batteries) as one could easily have a new crew member turn it on and forget, and then run down the house batteries far faster than one might like!

Best regards
Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II , SM #332. (for sale in November in Australia when we complete our circumnavigation - contact me or the broker)
Niue (& Tonga next week)




On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 4:43 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:
Colin,

Good to hear from you! It's amazing we're now so far apart given we were nearly next to each other just a few months ago.

That's great that you have so much generation capacity. So you can run the water maker (25amps) and induction (80+ amps) from your non-lithium batteries? I never tried that on my previous gel batteries because of lack of a capable inverter, but I didn't think it would have worked. One "weakness" of my current system is that I can't replenish, via renewable sources, all the power we use. With our current usage level, it doesn't make sense to have more than 450AH capacity because we don't generate enough renewable power daily so it's a question of how often we have to run the genset. Where do you have all that solar? Just on the arch or elsewhere too?

Do you have longer term data on the output of the Rutlands? I have heard so many conflicting stories on what people "think" their wind generators output on a daily basis. It would be interesting to see what they produce on average, over the course of months, in the normal trade wind circumnavigation route. Also, what about noise/hum/resonance?

Also where do you have them mounted? If I were to add them, I would put one on the mizzen mast and that's it. I have tested minor shading on the panels and even with my parallel wired 3 panel setup, solar output drops considerably with shading. I'm concerned that the solar reduction attributed to shading via a setup like Delos with the windgens located nearly directly above the panels would cancel out any output from the windgen. Lithium will not make windgens, if they produce considerable power, unnecessary. I would love to have more renewable generation capacity.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445

eric freedman
 

Hi Colin,

What model wind generator do you like?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of islandpearl2_sm2k332
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2019 10:10 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Hi Scott

 

Really interesting thread, thank you. We are following with interest.

 

After we met you at the Caribbean Amel Rally 2019 we took a late decision to do the Pacific this year, and end our circumnavigation in Nov 2019 instead of 2010. After this, we will probably sell Island Pearl II, but if we do not sell and decide to go around again instead, then adding Lithium batteries will certainly be the last of many upgrade steps to Island Pearl II. Based on this I would also be most interested in getting a copy of your upcoming Lithium report.

 

On Island Pearl II we have 1040w of solar, run through three separate solar controllers, plus two Rutland 1200 wind gens, and we now seldom use the genset. We have the same 100 Duo watermaker as you, plus do all cooking on our induction stove which is so much nicer than gas cooking. Gas is only for oven baking which we seldom do. To improve washing efficiency we recently upgraded the Amel supplied "Thompson" washing machine to a new "Bosch" as that comes with better cleaning and efficiency, and particularly has a dedicated special "cold water" washing cycle for doing our washing from batteries only.

 

As we near the end of our circumnavigation, we are now pretty close to running the boat "off the grid", but I have always thought that the final piece to the puzzle would be Lithium batteries, so look forward to reading your article and learning from your experiences.

 

By the way, in addition, I remain a total convert to the need for at least two good wind generators on any boat in order to reach a total off the grid experience. Litium could become the trup card that proves me wrong on this but I doubt it. These units are so now so quiet, that (other than visually) they go almost unnoticed. When one considers 50% of time is in darkness, and at least another 5% each per early morning and late afternoon low sun angle, leaves only 40% max (and that is on a sunny day!) with good solar production. Yes solar output completely outstrips that of wind power ten times over, but we would never again be without at least two latest models, high-efficiency good quality wind gen units aswell, which, for example, on night crossings on a beam reach, I often watch putting out 6amp each constantly, and then at anchor on cloudy/windy days (27 - 33kts) push out over 10amps each (x24v of course).

 

Watching with interest

 

Colin Streeter

SV Island Pearl II, sm #332

Niue, Pacific

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:34 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

I can't really predict for you, but I would guess as long as you spend most of your time around 50% and don't let it drop below 30% very often, the 15-20 year lifetime sounds very realistic.

Keep in mind that ONE over voltage or ONE under voltage condition can irreversibly damage the cell and likely the battery. That's why the BMS is there but all the charging sources need to be able to cut off charging once the BMS tells them to do so. And if any of the cell voltages drop below the safe level per the BMS, there should be an automatic disconnect of all the loads. Given the way Amels are wired, this last part has been a struggle for me.

You ideally should keep it at 40-50% while its wintered. Whatever you do, don't keep it at 100%. The Victron chargers don't have a direct way to specify target SOC, so I had to find a workaround.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


 

--

Colin Streeter

0411 016 445

islandpearl2_sm2k332
 

Hi Eric

I am very happy with the Rutland 1200 wind gens, and had researched these quite fully when we purchased back in April 2017. At that time all the reviews put them as one of the top three (Super Wind, D90, & Rutland 1200) but I would do the research again now, just to check if technology had advanced since, and if there are any better ones available in 2019? Obviously look at weight, output (at both low and high wind speeds), and particularly if it is still guaranteed at 45kts+ high wind speeds. Certainly, when I purchased, some were not covered for this and the Rutland 1200 was. The last thing you want when things are wild out there it to have to go out and tie-down the blades, especially if you put it on your mizzen mast!

Rutland had a two year warranty period when we purchased, and have now earned my respect since our two units have been faultless, other than the bearing in one unit (starboard side) did become noisy in a 50+ kts mid-Indian Ocean storm. I was not surprised (actually amazed the other one did not go too in those conditions!) but Rutland was excellent and fixed it, no questions asked, even though it was a year later and I informed them of the storm conditions. I had to ship it back to the UK, and they returned it to me with a new bearing installed when we reached South Africa. 

The one issue we had with Rutland was that the controller unit which comes with these is supposed to also be a solar controller. That feature could have been handy for us as we added more solar in Thailand and then again in the Caribbean, but when we tried to connect the new panels through the Rutland solar side of the controller we could not get it to work. I have since heard of another Amel having the same issue, possibly that was SV Perigree?

Best of luck with it Eric. If you install wind gens, you will no doubt also learn to love windy anchorages at night!  Finally I would certainly say do not bother to put just one unit one on your boat. To make it worthwhile two is far better, in fact, although it would look ridiculous, I would be sorely tempted to add a third unit if we do not sell and decide to do another lap of the world!

Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II
Niue.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Colin,

What model wind generator do you like?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of islandpearl2_sm2k332
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2019 10:10 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Hi Scott

 

Really interesting thread, thank you. We are following with interest.

 

After we met you at the Caribbean Amel Rally 2019 we took a late decision to do the Pacific this year, and end our circumnavigation in Nov 2019 instead of 2010. After this, we will probably sell Island Pearl II, but if we do not sell and decide to go around again instead, then adding Lithium batteries will certainly be the last of many upgrade steps to Island Pearl II. Based on this I would also be most interested in getting a copy of your upcoming Lithium report.

 

On Island Pearl II we have 1040w of solar, run through three separate solar controllers, plus two Rutland 1200 wind gens, and we now seldom use the genset. We have the same 100 Duo watermaker as you, plus do all cooking on our induction stove which is so much nicer than gas cooking. Gas is only for oven baking which we seldom do. To improve washing efficiency we recently upgraded the Amel supplied "Thompson" washing machine to a new "Bosch" as that comes with better cleaning and efficiency, and particularly has a dedicated special "cold water" washing cycle for doing our washing from batteries only.

 

As we near the end of our circumnavigation, we are now pretty close to running the boat "off the grid", but I have always thought that the final piece to the puzzle would be Lithium batteries, so look forward to reading your article and learning from your experiences.

 

By the way, in addition, I remain a total convert to the need for at least two good wind generators on any boat in order to reach a total off the grid experience. Litium could become the trup card that proves me wrong on this but I doubt it. These units are so now so quiet, that (other than visually) they go almost unnoticed. When one considers 50% of time is in darkness, and at least another 5% each per early morning and late afternoon low sun angle, leaves only 40% max (and that is on a sunny day!) with good solar production. Yes solar output completely outstrips that of wind power ten times over, but we would never again be without at least two latest models, high-efficiency good quality wind gen units aswell, which, for example, on night crossings on a beam reach, I often watch putting out 6amp each constantly, and then at anchor on cloudy/windy days (27 - 33kts) push out over 10amps each (x24v of course).

 

Watching with interest

 

Colin Streeter

SV Island Pearl II, sm #332

Niue, Pacific

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:34 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

I can't really predict for you, but I would guess as long as you spend most of your time around 50% and don't let it drop below 30% very often, the 15-20 year lifetime sounds very realistic.

Keep in mind that ONE over voltage or ONE under voltage condition can irreversibly damage the cell and likely the battery. That's why the BMS is there but all the charging sources need to be able to cut off charging once the BMS tells them to do so. And if any of the cell voltages drop below the safe level per the BMS, there should be an automatic disconnect of all the loads. Given the way Amels are wired, this last part has been a struggle for me.

You ideally should keep it at 40-50% while its wintered. Whatever you do, don't keep it at 100%. The Victron chargers don't have a direct way to specify target SOC, so I had to find a workaround.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


 

--

Colin Streeter

0411 016 445



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445

ngtnewington Newington
 

image1.jpeg
I have two Rutland 1200’s on Amelia mounted on the Solar Arch/Dingy davits.
They have been good and are near silent. My complaint is that they produce a resonance that is heard in the aft cabin. Near silent in the cockpit even is strong winds.
The original idea was to have each Rutland and one solar panel connected to the Rutland controller, but I was not happy with that set up as the controller got hot, so I ended up buying a Blue Sky controller for the solar  and 
sticking with a controller for each Rutland.
I think that they are pretty good value for money, but budget to buy separate a solar controller.
Nick
Amelia anchored Fiskardo 
54-019


On 13 Aug 2019, at 11:17, islandpearl2_sm2k332 <colin.d.streeter@...> wrote:

Hi Eric

I am very happy with the Rutland 1200 wind gens, and had researched these quite fully when we purchased back in April 2017. At that time all the reviews put them as one of the top three (Super Wind, D90, & Rutland 1200) but I would do the research again now, just to check if technology had advanced since, and if there are any better ones available in 2019? Obviously look at weight, output (at both low and high wind speeds), and particularly if it is still guaranteed at 45kts+ high wind speeds. Certainly, when I purchased, some were not covered for this and the Rutland 1200 was. The last thing you want when things are wild out there it to have to go out and tie-down the blades, especially if you put it on your mizzen mast!

Rutland had a two year warranty period when we purchased, and have now earned my respect since our two units have been faultless, other than the bearing in one unit (starboard side) did become noisy in a 50+ kts mid-Indian Ocean storm. I was not surprised (actually amazed the other one did not go too in those conditions!) but Rutland was excellent and fixed it, no questions asked, even though it was a year later and I informed them of the storm conditions. I had to ship it back to the UK, and they returned it to me with a new bearing installed when we reached South Africa. 

The one issue we had with Rutland was that the controller unit which comes with these is supposed to also be a solar controller. That feature could have been handy for us as we added more solar in Thailand and then again in the Caribbean, but when we tried to connect the new panels through the Rutland solar side of the controller we could not get it to work. I have since heard of another Amel having the same issue, possibly that was SV Perigree?

Best of luck with it Eric. If you install wind gens, you will no doubt also learn to love windy anchorages at night!  Finally I would certainly say do not bother to put just one unit one on your boat. To make it worthwhile two is far better, in fact, although it would look ridiculous, I would be sorely tempted to add a third unit if we do not sell and decide to do another lap of the world!

Colin Streeter
SV Island Pearl II
Niue.

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 8:15 PM eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

Hi Colin,

What model wind generator do you like?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of islandpearl2_sm2k332
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2019 10:10 PM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Hi Scott

 

Really interesting thread, thank you. We are following with interest.

 

After we met you at the Caribbean Amel Rally 2019 we took a late decision to do the Pacific this year, and end our circumnavigation in Nov 2019 instead of 2010. After this, we will probably sell Island Pearl II, but if we do not sell and decide to go around again instead, then adding Lithium batteries will certainly be the last of many upgrade steps to Island Pearl II. Based on this I would also be most interested in getting a copy of your upcoming Lithium report.

 

On Island Pearl II we have 1040w of solar, run through three separate solar controllers, plus two Rutland 1200 wind gens, and we now seldom use the genset. We have the same 100 Duo watermaker as you, plus do all cooking on our induction stove which is so much nicer than gas cooking. Gas is only for oven baking which we seldom do. To improve washing efficiency we recently upgraded the Amel supplied "Thompson" washing machine to a new "Bosch" as that comes with better cleaning and efficiency, and particularly has a dedicated special "cold water" washing cycle for doing our washing from batteries only.

 

As we near the end of our circumnavigation, we are now pretty close to running the boat "off the grid", but I have always thought that the final piece to the puzzle would be Lithium batteries, so look forward to reading your article and learning from your experiences.

 

By the way, in addition, I remain a total convert to the need for at least two good wind generators on any boat in order to reach a total off the grid experience. Litium could become the trup card that proves me wrong on this but I doubt it. These units are so now so quiet, that (other than visually) they go almost unnoticed. When one considers 50% of time is in darkness, and at least another 5% each per early morning and late afternoon low sun angle, leaves only 40% max (and that is on a sunny day!) with good solar production. Yes solar output completely outstrips that of wind power ten times over, but we would never again be without at least two latest models, high-efficiency good quality wind gen units aswell, which, for example, on night crossings on a beam reach, I often watch putting out 6amp each constantly, and then at anchor on cloudy/windy days (27 - 33kts) push out over 10amps each (x24v of course).

 

Watching with interest

 

Colin Streeter

SV Island Pearl II, sm #332

Niue, Pacific

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:34 AM Scott SV Tengah <sv.tengah@...> wrote:

Paul,

I can't really predict for you, but I would guess as long as you spend most of your time around 50% and don't let it drop below 30% very often, the 15-20 year lifetime sounds very realistic.

Keep in mind that ONE over voltage or ONE under voltage condition can irreversibly damage the cell and likely the battery. That's why the BMS is there but all the charging sources need to be able to cut off charging once the BMS tells them to do so. And if any of the cell voltages drop below the safe level per the BMS, there should be an automatic disconnect of all the loads. Given the way Amels are wired, this last part has been a struggle for me.

You ideally should keep it at 40-50% while its wintered. Whatever you do, don't keep it at 100%. The Victron chargers don't have a direct way to specify target SOC, so I had to find a workaround.


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


 

--

Colin Streeter

0411 016 445



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445

Joerg Esdorn
 

I have a Superwind half way up the mizzen mast and it is completely silent.  I have a special connector between the mast bracket and the generator which makes the unit sit and rotate on a plastic plate, rather than metal, and is supposed to eliminate any resonance.   It's been working.  It's been in 45 knots plus apparent several times without any problem.  This is the only wind generator which feathers the blades mechanically when the wind gets up too much, like a full sized professional unit.   You can also short it out electrically in high winds, reducing the wind pressure on the mast.  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 Kincsem
Almerimar, Spain

Paul Brown
 

Hi Joerg 

What is the general amps produced in various winds?

Regards Paul 55#17


On 13 Aug 2019, at 4:19 pm, Joerg Esdorn via Groups.Io <jhe1313@...> wrote:

I have a Superwind half way up the mizzen mast and it is completely silent.  I have a special connector between the mast bracket and the generator which makes the unit sit and rotate on a plastic plate, rather than metal, and is supposed to eliminate any resonance.   It's been working.  It's been in 45 knots plus apparent several times without any problem.  This is the only wind generator which feathers the blades mechanically when the wind gets up too much, like a full sized professional unit.   You can also short it out electrically in high winds, reducing the wind pressure on the mast.  

Joerg Esdorn
A55 Kincsem
Almerimar, Spain

ofer magen
 

Hi Joerg, 
Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 
Thanks, 

Ofer Magen
Alba A54 160 
Datcha area Turkey 

 

Everyone,

You know how cationary I have been regarding Lithium based electrical systems onboard an Amel. I had one client who had serious issues because the source he used failed to install all needed devices and failed to correctly setup the devices installed.

BUT, as technology evolves, so should opinions.

Although I am proceeding cautiously, I am currently working with several recommended marine power supply companies that not only supply lithium-ion batteries, but also supply all  the other devices, which must be changed in an Amel, coupled with expert support. One of these is located in Europe another in the USA, and the third in the Caribbean. 

My hope is to within 30 days have a basic package assorted and spect'd and to have optional add-ons like different sized Victron charger/inverters and possibly electric cooking devices. The future is exciting.

When the above sourcing and specifications project is completed, I will release the package here on the AYOG. I will also separately notify my Amel Yacht School clients via email of preferential ordering and support.

I want to especially thank Scott Nguyen, Amel 54 TENGAH Hull#69, for the research he shared with me 3 months ago.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970



On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:31 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Joerg, 
Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 
Thanks, 

Ofer Magen
Alba A54 160 
Datcha area Turkey 

Joerg Esdorn
 

I don’t know off the top of my head but there is an output curve on their website which is pretty good.  The big benefit is that it’s running all the time when you’re in 7 knots apparent or more.  So I get 50 Ah per day or more quite often.  It’s great when you are sailing on a reach or upwind.   Not so great downwind in Italy in August.  

Paul Brown
 

Sounds very effective, could I ask the total cost?
Regards Paul 


On 13 Aug 2019, at 8:06 pm, Joerg Esdorn via Groups.Io <jhe1313@...> wrote:

I don’t know off the top of my head but there is an output curve on their website which is pretty good.  The big benefit is that it’s running all the time when you’re in 7 knots apparent or more.  So I get 50 Ah per day or more quite often.  It’s great when you are sailing on a reach or upwind.   Not so great downwind in Italy in August.  

Stephen Davis
 

Thanks Bill. My batteries are near the end of there life, and I’m interested in this upgrade. 

Steve
Aloha SM 72
Hawaii

On Aug 13, 2019, at 08:06, Joerg Esdorn via Groups.Io <jhe1313@...> wrote:

I don’t know off the top of my head but there is an output curve on their website which is pretty good.  The big benefit is that it’s running all the time when you’re in 7 knots apparent or more.  So I get 50 Ah per day or more quite often.  It’s great when you are sailing on a reach or upwind.   Not so great downwind in Italy in August.  

Joerg Esdorn
 

I don’t know current pricing.  The generator and mizzen attachment was about 3K 2 years ago but I believe prices have gone up.  Definitely cheaper to have more solar but I like the mix of power sources.   Cheers. Joerg 

Paul Brown
 

Thanks Joerg 




On 14 Aug 2019, at 7:34 am, Joerg Esdorn via Groups.Io <jhe1313@...> wrote:

I don’t know current pricing.  The generator and mizzen attachment was about 3K 2 years ago but I believe prices have gone up.  Definitely cheaper to have more solar but I like the mix of power sources.   Cheers. Joerg 

Teun BAAS
 

Last year I paid about EURO2,500 via a NEW CALEDONIA dealer plus installation.

Can confirm NO noise; NO vibration at all – it is mounted on the solar arch.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

PORT VILA  VANUATU

August 16, 2019 14:29:03

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joerg Esdorn via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 16:34
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

I don’t know current pricing.  The generator and mizzen attachment was about 3K 2 years ago but I believe prices have gone up.  Definitely cheaper to have more solar but I like the mix of power sources.   Cheers. Joerg 

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Hello,

I went lithium with my A54 and use it since about 10 month now.
Its an 100% improvement to our Vela Nautica since we live long term on her and most times anchored.
Since then our generator times decreased to 25% compared to before lithium times while we use more energy.
Since then we live like having shore power all the time.
I started to describe the process on:

https://velanautica.org/vela-nautica-goes-lithium/

Since its to much to show it here.

Shortly I am going to show more details about every single unit we needed to change to get the most out of it.

As a resumee I must say its one of the best things to do if you liveaboard but there are many pitfalls. There are not many competent partners to help and most sell standard equipment and you wont get the best.

Oliver from Vela Nautica

A54#39

Portugal



Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
From: CW Bill Rouse
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
CC:


Everyone,

You know how cationary I have been regarding Lithium based electrical systems onboard an Amel. I had one client who had serious issues because the source he used failed to install all needed devices and failed to correctly setup the devices installed.

BUT, as technology evolves, so should opinions.

Although I am proceeding cautiously, I am currently working with several recommended marine power supply companies that not only supply lithium-ion batteries, but also supply all  the other devices, which must be changed in an Amel, coupled with expert support. One of these is located in Europe another in the USA, and the third in the Caribbean. 

My hope is to within 30 days have a basic package assorted and spect'd and to have optional add-ons like different sized Victron charger/inverters and possibly electric cooking devices. The future is exciting.

When the above sourcing and specifications project is completed, I will release the package here on the AYOG. I will also separately notify my Amel Yacht School clients via email of preferential ordering and support.

I want to especially thank Scott Nguyen, Amel 54 TENGAH Hull#69, for the research he shared with me 3 months ago.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970



On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:31 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Joerg, 
Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 
Thanks, 

Ofer Magen
Alba A54 160 
Datcha area Turkey 

Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

Oliver,

 

This is very interesting. We are presently just across the Guadiana River near Ayamonte in Spain, so if you are in the south of Portugal would it be possible to meet up so we can learn more from you?

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

Cheers,

Paul

S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Sent: 20 August 2019 11:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Hello,

I went lithium with my A54 and use it since about 10 month now.
Its an 100% improvement to our Vela Nautica since we live long term on her and most times anchored.
Since then our generator times decreased to 25% compared to before lithium times while we use more energy.
Since then we live like having shore power all the time.
I started to describe the process on:

https://velanautica.org/vela-nautica-goes-lithium/

Since its to much to show it here.

Shortly I am going to show more details about every single unit we needed to change to get the most out of it.

As a resumee I must say its one of the best things to do if you liveaboard but there are many pitfalls. There are not many competent partners to help and most sell standard equipment and you wont get the best.

Oliver from Vela Nautica

A54#39

Portugal



Sent from my Huawei Mobile



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
From: CW Bill Rouse
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
CC:


Everyone,

 

You know how cationary I have been regarding Lithium based electrical systems onboard an Amel. I had one client who had serious issues because the source he used failed to install all needed devices and failed to correctly setup the devices installed.

 

BUT, as technology evolves, so should opinions.

 

Although I am proceeding cautiously, I am currently working with several recommended marine power supply companies that not only supply lithium-ion batteries, but also supply all  the other devices, which must be changed in an Amel, coupled with expert support. One of these is located in Europe another in the USA, and the third in the Caribbean. 

 

My hope is to within 30 days have a basic package assorted and spect'd and to have optional add-ons like different sized Victron charger/inverters and possibly electric cooking devices. The future is exciting.

 

When the above sourcing and specifications project is completed, I will release the package here on the AYOG. I will also separately notify my Amel Yacht School clients via email of preferential ordering and support.

 

I want to especially thank Scott Nguyen, Amel 54 TENGAH Hull#69, for the research he shared with me 3 months ago.

 

Best,

 

CW Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St

Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:31 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:

Hi Joerg, 

Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 

Thanks, 

Ofer Magen

Alba A54 160 

Datcha area Turkey 


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Hi Oliver

Lots of interesting and useful information- you hinted in your video about the reasoning of using a single battery management system rather than each battery having an integrated BMS I am keen to understand more about this.

Andrew
Ronpische 
SM472

Canet-en-Roussillon 


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica <oliver.henrichsen@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:10 am
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
 
Hello,

I went lithium with my A54 and use it since about 10 month now.
Its an 100% improvement to our Vela Nautica since we live long term on her and most times anchored.
Since then our generator times decreased to 25% compared to before lithium times while we use more energy.
Since then we live like having shore power all the time.
I started to describe the process on:

https://velanautica.org/vela-nautica-goes-lithium/

Since its to much to show it here.

Shortly I am going to show more details about every single unit we needed to change to get the most out of it.

As a resumee I must say its one of the best things to do if you liveaboard but there are many pitfalls. There are not many competent partners to help and most sell standard equipment and you wont get the best.

Oliver from Vela Nautica

A54#39

Portugal



Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
From: CW Bill Rouse
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
CC:


Everyone,

You know how cationary I have been regarding Lithium based electrical systems onboard an Amel. I had one client who had serious issues because the source he used failed to install all needed devices and failed to correctly setup the devices installed.

BUT, as technology evolves, so should opinions.

Although I am proceeding cautiously, I am currently working with several recommended marine power supply companies that not only supply lithium-ion batteries, but also supply all  the other devices, which must be changed in an Amel, coupled with expert support. One of these is located in Europe another in the USA, and the third in the Caribbean. 

My hope is to within 30 days have a basic package assorted and spect'd and to have optional add-ons like different sized Victron charger/inverters and possibly electric cooking devices. The future is exciting.

When the above sourcing and specifications project is completed, I will release the package here on the AYOG. I will also separately notify my Amel Yacht School clients via email of preferential ordering and support.

I want to especially thank Scott Nguyen, Amel 54 TENGAH Hull#69, for the research he shared with me 3 months ago.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970



On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:31 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Joerg, 
Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 
Thanks, 

Ofer Magen
Alba A54 160 
Datcha area Turkey 

Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
 

Yes, ofcourse, we are anchored behind Culatra Island in the Faro destrict. Algarve

You can eMail us by using our address from our page.

VelaNautica.org

Oliver from Vela Nautica

A54#39

Portugal

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
From: Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
CC:


Oliver,

 

This is very interesting. We are presently just across the Guadiana River near Ayamonte in Spain, so if you are in the south of Portugal would it be possible to meet up so we can learn more from you?

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

Cheers,

Paul

S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Oliver Henrichsen, SV Vela Nautica
Sent: 20 August 2019 11:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium

 

Hello,

I went lithium with my A54 and use it since about 10 month now.
Its an 100% improvement to our Vela Nautica since we live long term on her and most times anchored.
Since then our generator times decreased to 25% compared to before lithium times while we use more energy.
Since then we live like having shore power all the time.
I started to describe the process on:

https://velanautica.org/vela-nautica-goes-lithium/

Since its to much to show it here.

Shortly I am going to show more details about every single unit we needed to change to get the most out of it.

As a resumee I must say its one of the best things to do if you liveaboard but there are many pitfalls. There are not many competent partners to help and most sell standard equipment and you wont get the best.

Oliver from Vela Nautica

A54#39

Portugal



Sent from my Huawei Mobile



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Amel is going lithium
From: CW Bill Rouse
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
CC:


Everyone,

 

You know how cationary I have been regarding Lithium based electrical systems onboard an Amel. I had one client who had serious issues because the source he used failed to install all needed devices and failed to correctly setup the devices installed.

 

BUT, as technology evolves, so should opinions.

 

Although I am proceeding cautiously, I am currently working with several recommended marine power supply companies that not only supply lithium-ion batteries, but also supply all  the other devices, which must be changed in an Amel, coupled with expert support. One of these is located in Europe another in the USA, and the third in the Caribbean. 

 

My hope is to within 30 days have a basic package assorted and spect'd and to have optional add-ons like different sized Victron charger/inverters and possibly electric cooking devices. The future is exciting.

 

When the above sourcing and specifications project is completed, I will release the package here on the AYOG. I will also separately notify my Amel Yacht School clients via email of preferential ordering and support.

 

I want to especially thank Scott Nguyen, Amel 54 TENGAH Hull#69, for the research he shared with me 3 months ago.

 

Best,

 

CW Bill Rouse

720 Winnie St

Galveston Island, TX 77550

+1(832) 380-4970

 

 

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:31 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:

Hi Joerg, 

Can you please send a photo of the installation of the super wind? 

Thanks, 

Ofer Magen

Alba A54 160 

Datcha area Turkey 


--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98

Scott SV Tengah
 

I guess this is a reminder that I still owe the group my writeup. :)

Oliver, how do you vent the compartment where you've installed the Victron 24/5000/120 inverter/charger? I mounted mine in the engine compartment (connected with the recommended 2x pair of 50mm2 wires - not 95mm2 as I previously mentioned) in the same location as the old Dolphin 100amp charger, with the same ventilation from outside as the original Amel setup. 

Even then, the charger/inverter gets damn hot especially when we are cooking and the induction, microwave and boiler are drawing tons of current. Or when it's charging at the full 120 amps.

Part of the reason I ask is that the electricians installed the Victron 150/35 MPPT in the same compartment where you installed your charger/inverter (where the main battery switches are) and I'm getting very high temperatures in that closed compartment after a full day's charging. If you've figured out a good cooling solution, I'd rather implement that than try to move my MPPT!

I was considering adding a little timer controlled 24v fan on the vent in the battery compartment and connecting the two compartments, but haven't for two reasons: (1) Amel kept the two compartments isolated. I am loathe to violate that as they probably did that for a reason (2) The fan is just another part to fail and I have enough things to keep up with already! 


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com