Topics

Amel's suggestion to run the Volvo D3-110 (A54) daily while on passage

Brent Cameron
 

Couldn’t that also create the opportunity for Carbon Monoxide to collect in the engine room?  (And potentially backflip into the cabin through the (usually dry) drains from the showers and lockers (assuming the sinks all have traps). 

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada

James Alton
 

Nick,

   In 3 years of sailing I have checked my muffler a few times after heavy weather to see if it had excess water in it and so far the level has been about the same, filling the bottom 30% of the can.  The exhaust hose on my boat loops all of the way up to the bottom of the deck so is pretty high above the waterline but does not have a check valve/flap in the system.  I have often wondered if it might be possible to install a water level sensor of some sort inside of what serves as the water lift muffler on my boat activate an alarm?  Has anyone else tried this?   Perhaps that could also be a possibility on your A54?   Draining the muffler certainly would be effective so long as one remembered to do it!  Once the water is removed you of course would then get exhaust into the boat if the drain port was left open so something to consider.  I agree an interesting thread.

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 10, 2020, at 6:06 AM, ngtnewington Newington via Groups.Io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:


This is an interesting thread. I am not sure why I hate running the engine at sea unnecessarily, but I do. 

On the 54 the exhaust out from the Vetus muffler is a large rubber hose that rises up to near the level of the cockpit floor, before flowing down to the hull skin fitting. In my opinion this is a good installation and unlikely to allow water to be forced into the engine especially considering the additional flap that will prevent waves from being forced in the exhaust line.

I believe that so long as the boat is actually sailing there will be no problem as the water will be sucked out of the pipework from the flow of water along the hull. This is due to the Bernoulli Principle, (a bit like the Ventouri effect) which is why a self bailing slot in the bottom of a sailing dinghy draws the water out whilst sailing but when stationary lets it in.

I can see that whilst hove to and more or less stationary there could indeed be a situation whereby water works its way into the muffler and then gradually fills up the exhaust outlet between the engine and the muffler. This is the one time when we really do not want to be worried about such a situation.

So in conclusion we need to be either mindful of this potential situation and run the engine or come up with something else.

I like Leslie’s suggestion of running a hose from the muffler drain point to the bilge. This would drain any water that accumulates in the muffler. It would be easy to install and one could test it and see just how much comes in….does anyone see a problem with this idea?

Nick

AML 54-019
Ashore Kilada Greece


On 10 Jan 2020, at 09:35, Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:

The flap valve is in the exhaust outlet fitting /// you can see it if you swim around the port side, or when you're hauled out.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Jamie Wendell
 

Having experienced my D3-110 failure firsthand, my theory was that the water infiltration into the cylinders was a gradual thing and was likely the result of excessive back pressure through the exhaust. I cannot believe that the flapper would have let a lot of water into the muffler while sailing or motoring, given the high loop above the muffler. If the engine were "getting weak" so to speak or there were any sort of water buildup at the muffler, I have to assume that my failure was the result of water sloshing back up into the engine upstream of the muffler. There is a valve at the bottom of the muffler, and I now periodically drain it just to be sure.
My theory about too much back pressure is also the reason I increased the size of the hose between the muffler and the flap, and also why I significantly shortened the hose vs. the original long loop.
Certainly, Amel's recommendation to run the engine routinely is a good one regardless of the configuration.
I am now a happy camper with my new D3-150.
Jamie
Phantom A54

karkauai
 

Hi Danny,
So do we have a flap valve somewhere in the system?  I thought it was supposed to be at the muffler.  Do we have one at the exhaust exit thru-hull?
If not, should we?

I have been aware of the fact that water can backflow into the engine on a port tack, and do run the engine and generator a couple times a day while at sea and have had no problems so far.

Kent
Kristy
SM243


On Jan 9, 2020 1:29 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent, We have the same. Identical including the tread on top.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 10 January 2020 at 03:23 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 
_._,_.
_._,_

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Kent,

I thought I had replied but it seems to be lost somewhere. I have a large diameter stainless tube at the end of the exhaust just inside the hull and the exhaust is attached to that. I assume the flap is in there. I have never gone looking. I think we are wise to follow Amel advice as to starting the engine daily. Those of us with wind and solar who don't need the genset  every day would likewise be sensible to do a daily start.

Regards

and best wishes for the New Year

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 11 January 2020 at 09:53 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi Danny,
So do we have a flap valve somewhere in the system?  I thought it was supposed to be at the muffler.  Do we have one at the exhaust exit thru-hull?
If not, should we?

I have been aware of the fact that water can backflow into the engine on a port tack, and do run the engine and generator a couple times a day while at sea and have had no problems so far.

Kent
Kristy
SM243


On Jan 9, 2020 1:29 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent, We have the same. Identical including the tread on top.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 10 January 2020 at 03:23 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 
_._,_.
_._,_

karkauai
 

Sounds like I'm worrying about something that hasn't been an issue.  Guess I'll leave well enough alone.

Thanks,
Sail safe, sail fast, have fun!
Kent

On Jan 10, 2020 11:13 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent,

I thought I had replied but it seems to be lost somewhere. I have a large diameter stainless tube at the end of the exhaust just inside the hull and the exhaust is attached to that. I assume the flap is in there. I have never gone looking. I think we are wise to follow Amel advice as to starting the engine daily. Those of us with wind and solar who don't need the genset  every day would likewise be sensible to do a daily start.

Regards

and best wishes for the New Year

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 11 January 2020 at 09:53 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi Danny,
So do we have a flap valve somewhere in the system?  I thought it was supposed to be at the muffler.  Do we have one at the exhaust exit thru-hull?
If not, should we?

I have been aware of the fact that water can backflow into the engine on a port tack, and do run the engine and generator a couple times a day while at sea and have had no problems so far.

Kent
Kristy
SM243


On Jan 9, 2020 1:29 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Hi Kent, We have the same. Identical including the tread on top.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 10 January 2020 at 03:23 "karkauai via Groups.Io" <karkauai@...> wrote:

Kristy (SM243) has a stainless steel mixing "box" instead of a Vetus muffler.  Pic attached.  Is there a flap valve here as well?    If not, can one be added to the exhaust hose?  If that's a bad idea, should I be getting a muffler?

Thanks,
Kent and Iris
Palm Beach FL heading to Bahamas and S with the next weather window. 
_._,_.
_._,_


Scott SV Tengah
 

I would be concerned leaving the vent open on the Vetus because in the past, we've had to start the engine somewhat unexpectedly. For example, a rain-less squall came and resulted in a huge wind shift that the autopilot couldn't cope with, resulting in us getting backwinded. I fired up the engine and quickly got us around the right way. 

Might be a bit more complicated if you're dumping seawater and CO into the engine room.

I'll stick to running it for 15 minutes daily and enjoy the hot water showers!
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Im with you on that Scott.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 12 January 2020 at 14:13 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

I would be concerned leaving the vent open on the Vetus because in the past, we've had to start the engine somewhat unexpectedly. For example, a rain-less squall came and resulted in a huge wind shift that the autopilot couldn't cope with, resulting in us getting backwinded. I fired up the engine and quickly got us around the right way. 

Might be a bit more complicated if you're dumping seawater and CO into the engine room.

I'll stick to running it for 15 minutes daily and enjoy the hot water showers!
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Gotta have some Keep it simple Stupid.  Amel gives us a simple task to keep our engines running for years…

:-)


Jean-Pierre Germain



On 12 Jan 2020, at 19:16, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

Im with you on that Scott.

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 12 January 2020 at 14:13 Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

I would be concerned leaving the vent open on the Vetus because in the past, we've had to start the engine somewhat unexpectedly. For example, a rain-less squall came and resulted in a huge wind shift that the autopilot couldn't cope with, resulting in us getting backwinded. I fired up the engine and quickly got us around the right way. 

Might be a bit more complicated if you're dumping seawater and CO into the engine room.

I'll stick to running it for 15 minutes daily and enjoy the hot water showers!
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

Alan Leslie
 

Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

 

Thanks, Scott. I agree completely


--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ


On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely


--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

Ruslan Osmonov
 

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

--

 

Ruslan Osmonov,

Some of the most frustrating issues experienced by some Amel owners are the failure of systems or modifications made by previous owners. 

Valves fail in saltwater environments. Electrical sensors and switches fail.

I think that you should seriously reconsider the solution suggested by Charles Doane, who BTW, is not an Amel owner. Also, keep in mind that it is very possible that a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th owner of an Amel has no idea whether the mechanicals, including the exhaust system, are Amel OEM.

I recommend that you should be very cautious in designing a change to an Amel designed system, device, or procedure. Amel is not totally infallible, but in my experience, Amel has usually thought things out correctly and reached the best conclusion.

--
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   
View My Training Calendar

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 3:56 PM Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:
Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

--

Ruslan Osmonov
 

Thank you Bill. Agree about thought through, one of the big reasons why I’m looking at Amels. 

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 5:41 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Ruslan Osmonov,

Some of the most frustrating issues experienced by some Amel owners are the failure of systems or modifications made by previous owners. 

Valves fail in saltwater environments. Electrical sensors and switches fail.

I think that you should seriously reconsider the solution suggested by Charles Doane, who BTW, is not an Amel owner. Also, keep in mind that it is very possible that a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th owner of an Amel has no idea whether the mechanicals, including the exhaust system, are Amel OEM.

I recommend that you should be very cautious in designing a change to an Amel designed system, device, or procedure. Amel is not totally infallible, but in my experience, Amel has usually thought things out correctly and reached the best conclusion.

--

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 3:56 PM Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:
Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 

--

--

James Alton
 

Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--

 

Mike,

I think you will discover that SM 23 has been modified by previous owners.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:14 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Bill - do you mean that last section of exhaust looks modified/non-Amel or just generally speaking?

Ruslan - I like a shutoff valve because it absolutely solves the backflow problem. If I went that direction, I would prefer a basic (no switches or sensors) and non-metal part to eliminate corrosion. The only real problem, besides the hassle of installing it, is making sure it's open before starting the engine and as others have said, in an emergency it would not be good at all.

If anyone has any experience with the rubber non-return flap in the exhaust or anything similar please let me know. What does this thing look like?

If I could reach the exhaust from deck I'd probably go with the foam ball on a string method :) ...opportunity for a special tool here? Just kidding.

Thanks,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ


On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 5:23 PM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Mike,

I think you will discover that SM 23 has been modified by previous owners.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse
Amel Owners Yacht School - www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com
720 Winnie St
Galveston Island, TX 77550
+1(832) 380-4970

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 8:14 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Thanks James! I've looked into all of those things except the internals of the injection elbow. I'll definitely check that as soon as I can. I'll give the muffler a double check while I'm at it. I'll let you know if I find anything... seems like I'm swallowing more seawater than most here.

Now something I overlooked earlier... at the through hull there is a little over a foot of extra wide pipe/hose. I'll attach a photo and hope it comes through. Looking up the exhaust from the outside, it appears to be totally hollow. This must be where the non-return rubber flap should be installed as referenced by Oliver and others.

Does anyone have any experience in replacing this? Probably best to source this part from Amel? Although given my SM is 1990, so this specific modification might be non-Amel for me. Is it just held in place with some marine adhesive?

Any advice is welcome here. Haulout is scheduled soon so it would be an ideal time to fit something.

Cheers,
Mike
SV Trilogy - SM23
Opua, NZ

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020, 3:30 PM James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Mike,

   A few things that you might check on your exhaust system that could be the cause:

1.  Check to be sure that the exhaust hose is looped as high as possible between the muffler and the discharge.  Perhaps a previous owner used less hose and lowered the loop from the original design?  In order for seawater to enter from the exhaust port it has to climb over this loop so the higher is better.

2.  Insure that your muffler is working properly.  Run the engine, shut down and then remove the exhaust hose to the muffler.  I like to see the muffler less than 1/3 full due to the drain back from the exhaust hose.  In order for the engine to flood from the exhaust port the muffler first has to fill with water.  If the muffler has more water than this, you could have a problem inside the muffler that does not allow the engine to properly clear the muffler usually due to corrosion. 

3.  Engines can also flood from the seawater intake side of things.  The line should be looped as high above the WL as practical and there should be a vent at the top of the loop that must function or seawater can be siphoned over the loop and into the engine.   Insure that the vent is working properly. 

4.  Ensure that the seawater injection elbow normally located at the connection between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust hose is not corroded through.

My boat is a Maramu so our systems are probably somewhat different.  I have removed the exhaust hose a few times after a rough passage and before starting the engine to see how much water had accumulated in the muffler and so far the level has always been nominal, or about the same as after shutting down the engine while dockside.  I have therefore not been too concerned about running my engine on passage and have not had any water in the engine to date.  

There are a number of low pressure check valves that you can install in the exhaust system to help prevent seawater from being driven in the exhaust port that you could look into but I suspect your problem is due to a faulty component or some change that has been made in the design of the exhaust system.  Best of luck to you, seawater can sure do a lot of damage to your engine so I hope that you can find the cause and rectify it.

Best,

James

SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Jan 25, 2020, at 4:56 PM, Ruslan Osmonov <rosmonov@...> wrote:

Hi Mike and everyone, this is the page where Charles Doane explains what he did at the end to deal with his flooded engine on his Boreal 47. 
His solution was a valve with electric switch to avoid accidental start with the valve closed. 
I’m a potential buyer and would like to understand if such a solution applicable in Amel’s setup. 
It would be great to eliminate one more worry to run an engine on a passage especially when seas are rough. Additionally when seas are rough diesel gunk can mix up and clog fuel filters, yet another problem to deal with. 


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM SV Trilogy <svtrilogy53@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but I thought I should share our recent experiences on the issue...

We have experienced seawater backflow twice this year while on multiday passages in the South Pacific. The first time, we were unaware of Amel's suggestion to run the engine while sailing. The second time, armed with the knowledge that one should run the engine once a day, we had a crankcase full of seawater after 18 hours. It's now clear, as explained by Oliver, that under certain conditions, the running of the engine needs to happen more often.

Because we have a 1990 SM, there doesn't seem to be anything in the exhaust line to block/baffle/slow down sea water from backflowing toward the engine. We also have a stainless muffler without a drain. The old Perkins Prima M80T, still alive and well, may have survived simply by being old and worn, allowing the incompressible seawater to escape around the rings before bending any rods, blowing gaskets, or cracking the engine...?

At any rate, wouldn't the simplest solution be one that prevents seawater from entering the crankcase altogether? To me, the variables involved in deciding when and how often to run the engine are more complicated than something more bulletproof, like a valve. One has no way of knowing really how much seawater is being pushed up the exhaust in a given seaway. Let alone the fact that we are burning diesel for the sole purpose of producing exhaust gasses.

All that considered, I don't yet have an ideal solution. A muffler with a drain would probably cover it. Then depending on the passage, one can decide to pull the plug or to run the engine at certain intervals. For us, we will probably run the engine every couple of hours in a rough sea until I add a drain to the muffler or come up with something better. An engine full of seawater is a terrible thing to experience while making landfall after a long passage... I'm just grateful the engine survived and that we were carrying enough fresh oil.

If I do come up with a simple and "bulletproof" solution, I'll be sure to report back.

Cheers,
Mike & Hannah
SV TRILOGY
Opua, NZ

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 9:10 AM CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Thanks, Scott. I agree completely



On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 2:46 AM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Agree, seems quite a few of us are on the same pages on this KISS
Cheers 
Alan 
Elyse SM 437 






--

Alexander Ramseyer
 

I'm not sure I fully understand this quote from Oliviers post:
" Last point, the anti-siphon system cannot prevent water from getting into the exhaust line. It is designed in order no water can be sucked from the intake line, and once the engine is off, in order the line drains into the muffler, and water does not keep above the engine for a long time. This is also a check point (does the water drip out of the cockpit while the engine is running?)". Can someone help to interpret please?

Jamie, in case you read this, can you tell me whether or not water from high waves made it into your cockpit? (..and filled your drain and eventually the small hose that goes from inside the big drain tube to the round metal hose in the engine room (metal part of the system that is attached to the Diesel tank). I had water in my cockpit and I consider the possibility that the water made from the big cockpit drain through that small hose and from there into the motor (possible if water is high enough in the cockpit in combination with the boat moving in the waves.

Alex Ramseyer
AMEL54#15, SY NO STRESS
Thanks, Alex